VHSL "Jubilee" One Week Later -- Problems

while i hear your pain, VA High School baseball has long suffered because of the emphasis placed on travel ball and the for-profit organizations now involved in "sponsoring" many of these teams. I don't think your going to get a lot of sympathy from the VHSL and the great majority of high school parents and players in this regard. Appreciate the post and information, but High School ball should always come first in season, and i have no problem with their scheduling.  

Most of our HS players (a majority) play travel ball, and a "vast" majority aspire to play at the next level. Of our graduating seniors last year, more than half will be playing at the next level. So your thinking as it applies to our HS is not applicable.

 

And I can tell you that six of our players last year missed their first weekend of showcase ball due to playoffs, and across all the impacted travel organizations there was a universal understanding and acceptance that HS comes first.

It was a "Legion-First-and-Everyone-Else-Be-Damned" attitude that contributed significantly to American Legion Baseball's demise in many parts of the country. If high school associations fail to try to coexist and cooperate with conflicts like the ones Midlo Dad identifies, they're at risk of repeating Legion's error and finding themselves becoming more and more anachronistic. 

 

High school sports already suffer enough from a variety of challenges. The last thing they need to be doing is finding ways to add to the list.

Similar conflict always occurred in VA with the Commonwealth games and PG event. 

I don't see how high school teams suffer from travel ball.  Every travel program I know of steers clear of spring season in deference to HS ball. 

 

Now, if you're talking about when HS coaches try to run their own off-season programs, bear in mind that VHSL has frowned upon that.  And I know some people are jealous that travel programs have taken a lot (but far from all) of the scouting limelight off HS games.  But I don't count being jealous as suffering.  Sulking, maybe, but not suffering.

 

As for HS ball coming first, no one is arguing that point.  I would never suggest that a player should abandon his team at any time, much less at the penultimate point of the season.  In this way, this situation differs from the conflicts of the Commonwealth Games with the WWBA 17u week, and from the stubbornness of the Legion ball people that has led to their program becoming a weaker sister.  While I agree that both the CG and Legion have tried to win some sort of competition and then been surprised to find themselves on the short end of the stick, I cannot imagine anyone leaving their HS team on the eve of state championship weekend to go off showcasing.  I mean, we're talking about a limited number of elite players, and elite players by definition don't think that way.

 

What I am saying is, it's callous and selfish to just set your own schedule as if the impact on the participants didn't matter to you.  This didn't have to happen.  Either someone knew of the conflict and didn't care, or someone didn't bother to find out despite having to know what all goes on with baseball players.  Either way it reflects poorly on VHSL, which is supposed to be a service organization.  That is, VHSL exists to serve the athletes, not the other way around.

I agree with Midlothian. These showcases are very important for the kids with the talent to get to the next level. Unfortunately VHSL is not concerned and that's a shame.

Complaining to the VHSL with the argument of interfering with travel & showcase baseball, Legion baseball or whatever will go no where.  Their most recent masterful changes (realignment and reclassification) should be enough evidence of where their head is at. 

 

However, pitchout31 has brought up an excellent point about baseball needing to be done with before the end of school.  This effects every VA student/athlete.  Could this potentially to interfere with exams or tests?  It could be time to play the academic card.  That will get the schools attention and subsequently the VHSL's attention.

It's hard to comprehend what the VHSL is thinking!!  Obviously, I was not in the room when this was decided but what on earth could be their rationale to cause seniors playing in the State Tournament to miss their HS graduation!!  If a player wants to miss his own graduation to play in a travel ball event that's his business; but for the VHSL to schedule an event that conflicts with HIGH SCHOOL graduation is unconscionable (I'm pretty sure the HS of VHSL stands for High School). Another factor is what if that week-end is a total washout.  I didn't understand the need to expand from three groups to six but this takes the cake.  At some point, someone should be held accountable for these irrationale decisions.

This is why kids stop playing high school ball. There should be a way to work together to make it work for all kids.  

Exactly!

I may be missing the trees for the forest but could you give a few examples of how high school baseball in Virginia has actually suffered due to travel baseball? 

I personally don't live in Virginia, but around the country more and more players are passing on High School and Legion.  I live in the Northwest, and it seems harder and harder to attend important events and still play Legion. Son would definitely not miss for the high school, but Legion taking essentially the whole summer, it causes conflicts.

I think playing in the state playoffs/tournaments has effected some school's graduations along the way.  The spread of graduation dates is very wide.

 

A few clicks and I found the graduation dates for several of the high schools listed on the other Virginia thread of possible state contenders:

 

Cosby, Thursday, June 5th

Hanover, Saturday, June 7th

Western Branch, Thursday, June 12th

Great Bridge, Friday, June 13th

Stone Bridge, Monday, June 16th (Looks like Loudon Co. avoids graduation conflicts!)

 

Plus, the graduation practice, the day before, is usually mandatory. 

 

I bet if you asked the players, not today, but the week of competition if their team was in the running, if they would rather play in the state baseball playoffs/tournament or go to graduation....I know what my player would say (and this parent would agree, but the grandparents may be a tad upset).

 

More or less agree with keewart.  The state baseball championship games have, depending on the schools involved, conflicted with high school graduations.  My son graduated in 2012 and his team made it to the state quarterfinals.  Had they advanced to the final four the semifinal and final games would have definitely conflicted with his graduation ceremony.

 

If the championship games interfere with graduation, it won't be the first time and I doubt it will be the last.

 

As to springer80's question, I don't know of any players that did not play HS ball to play travel ball.  Most, if not all, played for their respective HS teams.

"Do you think high school coaching was better 30 years ago than today?"

 

My answer is no.  I think coaching generally is much higher caliber today than it was 30 years ago.  I also think people's expectations are much, much higher, and in addition, parents are much more into the helicopter/interfering thing.  Which is why we see so much hyperventilation over what this or that coach did, whereas back in my day, nobody said boo to a coach no matter how good or bad he might have been.

"Travel Ball has lent to HS baseball being a bit watered down for a few reasons. The most glaring to me is that good baseball guys who love the game, are more likely to coach in a more controlled environment for better compensation....

Another thing is that pitchers are more likely to follow a regiment laid out by the travel school program, because this is where he is going to get recruited. This may or may not affect the pitcher's workload or availability for the school team.

I am sure that pitchers in high school today are very aware of how many pitches and innings they should throw; and if the kid has a future, not out of the question to dictate some of this to the high school.

There are many ways that travel programs take precedence over high school, even if only behind the scenes.

But without a doubt, best for everyone if their is a strong high school baseball presence. Playing for your school is a great thing for the kids. But I still can't fathom the season not being completely over with before exams, graduation practices and soaking in all of the high school experience in the last week of school - without baseball. Just seems wrong."

 

I can't find anything in here that doesn't just strike me as dead wrong, even describing things that I've just never seen occur anywhere.  I have to ask, have you seen any of this actually happen?  Or is this just someone's story telling up in the stands?  Please, don't start fretting over that kind of talk that isn't grounded in reality.

 

As for graduation practice and the ceremony itself, there have been occasional instances of players missing those to compete.  I've never met a player who would consider missing the games to wear their robe.  But it happens so infrequently, it's just not a big problem.  And BTW the kid still gets his diploma even if he misses the photo op.

Going back to my original post, I would like to pass along that per Greg Sabers, PG's man in charge of the national showcases, any player who pays for these events only to find he has to stay home to play in the HS championships will get a cash refund upon request.  Not a credit towards some future event, but a true refund.

 

Thanks again to PG for doing all it can.

 

I wish there were an airline that would make the same offer, but that is not going to happen.  (Though I've never bought trip insurance; does that help?)

Not sure "having to cancel trip due to high school baseball game" is in the trip insurance clauses, but may be worth asking?

 

However, I recently purchased an American Airlines ticket, and for a small upcharge, got checked bag, priority boarding, and no change fees.  At least you wouldn't loose the ticket..and could go somewhere else another time.  

Nice job Midlo.

 

Just pay the premium for change of flight. Look: if you're going to Ft. Myers for the Jr. Nationals or the Nationals, then it won't be your only flight this year.

Just an fyi. Powhatan in 2008 and 2012 state championship finals were played on the saturday of their graduation at Radford. I must admit it was very memorable for the boys to officially graduate at home plate before game. They dressed in cap and gown over uniform and received their diplomas. One player was to speak at graduation 2nd in class but chose to play.  How many of you remember your graduation? I am sure winning helped it to be a positive experience.

I agree the season should not go longer but playing in early March is no fun in 40 degree weather. Why are there no saturday games? It is allowed in playoffs but not regular season? It could help with scheduling and finishing first week of june.

Sometimes the premium for change of flight is almost the cost of a new ticket.  I found that to be true on a return trip from Florida. Also, a number of airlines will only allow the change for the same itinerary.   Just fly Southwest whenever you can and think you may need to cancel.  If you have to cancel the Southwest flight, the funds paid for the Southwest fare can be used for up to one year from the original booking by the person who booked the flight.  Plus Southwest doesn't charge for baggage.  (No, I do not own stock in Southwest, just appreciate a good service.)

Southwest provides good service, but they may land at the wrong airport.

HS Baseball is rapidly approaching the status of HS Basketball as irrelevant and only the occasional nugget will be found there.

 

AAU basketball is where players get recruited.  An ACC coach can go to Disney and see the top 50-100 players going against each for a week.  Who cares if the 6'7" swingman can dominate a bunch of 6'2" guys in January.  Can he do it in July when the real games are played and the guy in the other jersey is as big and athletic?

 

Same thing happening with the guy riding it up there in the 90's.  Who cares if he can blow it past a team in April that has no kids that will swing a bat in college.  Can he get a full lineup of real hitters out in July?  College & Pro scouts can go to these events and see hundreds of players going against each other head to head in a few days.  They can come back and look at position players multiple times and perhaps see a pitcher twice.  All for $500 at the Courtyard, a car rental, and $200 in burgers & beer.  Sweet deal.

 

As for the guys making a buck....only in America... and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

Got 5 kids...one of which won a baseball state championship.  Graduations as a event....way overrated.  Your kid is SUPPOSED to graduate.  It is their job.  Smells a lot like participation trophy's in too many cases.

 

 

Travel ball is for recruiting.  HS ball is for its own sake.  Travel ball will never replace HS ball and shouldn't try to because that's not what it's for.

 

Remember that most of those playing HS ball are playing at the highest level they will ever attain.  May will never really attend college.  So let's keep some perspective. 

Its nice to see that a few people on here understand the difference between HS and travel ball.

Midlo - I agree with your point.  The issue I was addressing is for the kid that is trying to get in front of recruiters and scouts to get the best offers he can getting boxed in by the VHSL decision to push the dates back.  For the Senior playing in the State Championship that will be the last game of his life it means everything.  For the Junior pitching the game with the low 90's fastball being in front of the scouts probably has more material value.  

 

My point is really the same as yours.  For the kids that won't play after HS those games are what they are playing for.  For the kids that will play after HS they are really secondary to the recruiting process.  To the extent the kid with talent is the star player on his team and he is playing with friends he grew up with there is value in that experience and only they can determine what that is.  Most will probably place a good deal of significance on it. 

 

My son did not.  He could not wait to get out of the Jubilee and get on the road.  I totally got it and I have his medal sitting on my desk at work waiting for him to ask me for it someday.  I hope he does but I am not sure he will.

 

 

FWIW - we did not know it at the time but the college coach that ultimately recruited my son was at our state quarterfinal game, ~2 hours from our home field and ~3 hours from the college campus.  We didn't even know he was on their radar.  Saw UVA's Coach O'Connor at our semi-final game the next night. To be clear, college coaches do attend these games.

There is no competition between the two in my experience.  While the High School season is going on the College season is going on as well for the most part.  The college season ends - the next week the High School season ends.  Then everyone is into Showcase/Rectuiting season.

 

It's a non-issue and there is no competition between the HS and the Showcase worlds.

 

It's just this particular year when the HS playoffs have extended one week into the PG Jr Naitonal and PG National events.  Reality is that this will only really effect - at most - 15 kids form the state of Virginia.  Those kids aren't a secret and the vast majority of them are either already committed or will likely be committed by the time the Jr/National event occurs.  It's inconvenient but manageable. 

 

Bottom line is SPRING IS HERE!!!!!  Let's get some games rolling!!!!!!

"For the kids that will play after HS they are really secondary to the recruiting process."

 

I don't agree with this.

 

Your first and foremost commitment is to winning today's game for the team you betrothed yourself to.  You have to do the recruiting stuff "in your spare time," so to speak.

 

As it happens, proving yourself a competitor and a winner is essential to any player's recruiting goals anyway, so there is no question where the player's mind should be when championship weekend rolls around.

Agreed.  Not to mention that many college coaches attend the playoff games.  In general the best teams make the playoffs.  Generally, the best teams have the best players.  To that end, the high school playoffs serve a similar role for recruiters, to the travel season;  in that you have a collection of talent, all in one place.

In addition, the majority of D1 programs are done with their season.  Most conference tournaments are over by the 3rd week of May.  Also, D2 and D3 have completed their respective World Series by then.

 

To think that HS baseball no longer matters is a losing proposition.

 

Remember this: High School baseball is to get laid. Travel Baseball is to get paid.

I guess I just disagree.  The primary purpose of HS to begin the transition from childhood to adulthood.  Our kids should be preparing to give themselves the best opportunity in life.  That makes recruiting something significantly more than a spare time thing.  I cannot image a similar attitude toward the SAT or ACT in relationship to schoolwork.

 

I don't want to engage entirely on the value of winning or losing for Kilmer at old West Caanan.  Of course when you are in the game you play to win.  That was not the issue.  It is what is more beneficial for a limited number of players, the State Tourney or the Showcase.  It has to be the showcase for the reason stated above.

 

It should also be recognized these games do not matter in the big scheme.  Winning any HS game is extremely unlikely to mean anything to anyone other than the coach.  If he wins enough he might move up to the next level. The Field of Dreams stuff is for 12 year olds in Cooperstown.  BTW...too much emphasis put on winning those games too.

 

 

 

 

There is a vast amount of information on this website that I find very insightful and helpful but this post of yours just leaves me shaking my head in utter amazement that you believe a HS State championship is not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. What scheme do you exist in?  Obviously, this is blog for opinions and you stated yours but I would hope and pray that HS players today do not share your opinion/approach.  If they do...things are going downhill at a fast pace.  What I gleaned from your message is that its all about "ME" not the "TEAM".  If I was a college coach and found out that a recruit skipped his HS playoff game to attend a showcase event that would be the last time I would consider him for my team.  When he shows up on campus I want to know that he is commited to our team.  With all this said, as a player I did put a great deal of emphasis on winning because that is the object of the game.  I don't care if it's a State Championship game or Monopoly!  If I'm playing...I want to win!  If I don't, life goes on but to think winning is not that important seems like we should be stuck in TBall for all of our lives.  At some point we need to learn to compete...that's what is required in the workplace and a proper emphasis on winning in youth and HS sports is great preparation for what's in store in their adult life.

Well, there is a first for everything:

 

Just came to my attention that a kid chose to forgo his JV HS baseball tryouts because that particular school had a "no travel ball in season" policy.  This particular young man chose, instead, to play for his 14U travel team instead of play for his HS team.

We all have to make choices in this lifetime but, frankly, my personal opinion is that the Spring is for HS ball and the summer is for travel (or Legion - depending on your goals and commitment status). 

 

I have my own feelings regarding JV programs not letting 8th grade bench-riders get live AB's and innings on the weekends with their travel programs but that's a whole different ball of wax.  But to pass up JV ball altogether and stay on the "outside" of the HS program at the onset?!?!  Interesting decision.

 

And, truth be told, knowing the player and the HS program - this kid would have likely been a starter as an 8th grader for that particular program.

 

Tell that to my son's teammates when they won the district tournament for the first time in 25 years and eventually advanced to the state tournament.  Sure it didn't mean anything......yeah, right......

 

Does it mean anything in the big picture?  No, probably not, but it meant a lot to those 15 boys.

Wow. My son and I are travel baseball enthusiasts and he plays year-round. But, high school baseball is a once in a lifetime event (per school year), and will always trump travel ball. Of course, my son's 15u team is on hold for HS baseball...I would have thought virtually all teams would be.

I think it should also be noted that everything in life operates in tiers.  There is executive management, upper management, middle management, and worker bees.

 

Same goes for high school programs...same goes for travel programs.  Many parents think that because me son plays "travel ball", he will be seen.  He is playing the best competition.  He is developing.   Not so fast!!!!

 

You, me, my neighbor, and your boss can set up a travel team.  There are thousands of travel teams, and college coaches aren't watching every team play.

 

I could be crazy here, but in general...the travel programs I would want my son to play for aren't playing until the high school season is over.  Why???  Because the talent that they hope to attract is too busy starring for their high school program.  Not to mention that they may share similar values.

Springer - Not sure you get my post at all.  My post very clearly
says that if that you are in the game you play to win.  That is not the issue. No T-ball participation trophy implied.

 

This thread started as a comment on the impact of the jubilee on the recruiting process.  My expanded point was to try to place a perspective on the actual value of any HS game in the big picture and I thank you for helping me make it.

 

I could make up 1,000 examples to prove my point but I'll try this.  Can you tell me  won Super Bowl XXIX?  I can't.  100 Million people probably watched and the result is not something that most of them remember.  Why would any HS game even come close?   

 

Herm Edwards was right, they play to win the game.  But for certain kids, they also play for what the game might bring to them, scholarship or more.  That is real and should not be minimized in any way especially with unfounded and cavalier suggestions of selfishness. 

 

Most teams that make it to the State Final are riding the backs of those handful of kids that will play ball in college.  I am hard pressed to see the selfishness in carrying others to a moment of so called glory that they could never have achieved themselves.  

 

 

luv baseball,

 

I cannot recall who won that Super Bowl but I will bet my paycheck that the players who participated in this event remember it vividly.  Regarding my T-Ball comment I must of put too much emphasis on your comment about "winning a HS game is unlikely to mean anything to anyone other than the HS coach".  I agree that there are significant by-products of playing HS sports including the opportunity it affords certain players to be recognized for college or possibly pro baseball.  IMHO, recruiting should be a by-product of HS baseball and not the primary reason; whereas Travel baseball's emphasis should be recruiting.