Visual Mechanics

The swing (after toe touch) takes 180-200 milliseconds, so you must start your swing when the ball is roughly half way home. (release to home is roughly 400 ms)

So, you must use #2 above to guess roughly where the ball will end up (up, down, in, out) and begin your swing with your core toward this zone.

Then as the ball gets closer (prior to the 7-8 foot mark where the ball is just a blur), you use #1 above to make finer adjustments with your forearm/hands and tilt.

According to Frozen Ropes they would completely disagree with number 2. In doing studies they have found that all hitters lose site of a 90+ fastball at 15 feet out. In fact they encourage when doing drills not to focus on the ball but out in front in order to teach your body to get the barrel there.

SoCal

Number 1 dictates the scenario you describe as far as the 15' goes. Your eyes cant rotate fast enough. As the ball gets closer, the angle for each foot towards the hitter becomes steeper and steeper (assuming no head movement). In method 1, you watc the ball until you just cant track it anymore and make your best approximation.

I think you're actually describing Number 2. You look at the pitchers delivery and then bring your focus (I used the words head and eyes) to some place just in front of you. In other words, you stop tracking the ball all the way in and look to pick it up as it gets closer to you.

What drills do you guys use to do this?

Number two seems ridiculous. Perhaps I don't understand.

At what point do you decide not to look at the ball, but rather to look 15' feet in front of you? You'd have to completely miss the ball release because your eyes can't go back fast enough wants the ball is released.

I'd like to hear names of hitters who advocate for #2.

I watched some slow mo vids of MLB and it looks like they look at the ball all the way to contact. Its hard enough to hit a move with movement, let alone guessing where its gana be.

Hi catch:

In method number one, hitters watch the ball all the way in but, their eyes fail them when the ball is something less than 15 feet out from them. By that point, at least some of their swing mechanics had to be underway. They have approximated the contact zone.

In method 2, it is my understanding that the hitter starts tracking the ball from the hand to a certain distance out but, moves head and eyes to the zone where he will pick it up again to contact. That's the only explanation for LAball's observance.

Just an opinion from a college ballplayer...

I don't think it's worth worrying about too much. Hitter's learn how to use their eyes along the way...and guys have different styles. The best pro hitters didn't grow up using special techniques to see the ball. They just get better as they go.

Getting exposure to tougher pitching forces you to learn how to see pitches.

I was the kind of hitters that never looked at spin, just pitch movement. Some guys say they see spin...but I didn't, and I still succeeded at the college level.

Just some thoughts.

There is no spin that can be "seen" - except changeups and knuckle balls - both are tumbling slow enough to see seams.

Curves and sliders can be spotted via a red dot, or red circle, depending on grip.

2 seamers and cutters can be spotted by 2 diag red lines.

4 seamer is a light pink blur.

95+ mph fastball can only be detected by the sound as it hits the mitt

Do you currently play? If so, do you actually see these dots when you're up to bat?

I only ask because I never saw dots, seems, lines, etc.

I saw movement and speed. If I saw the ball hump up I thought "curveball"

No movement meant fastball or change

I don't want to say you can't see these things at the plate...but in my experience at the highest levels...it all happens too quickly to see a seem or line...then decide what pitch it is...then change your swing accordingly...

brian, have someone pitch a few balls to you. You will see exactly what I described.

My guess is that hitters process the dots and circles without really thinking about them. Probably nobody can sort out all the different stripes, dots, etc.

But, let's say you're looking for a pitch and you are facing a pitcher that has only 2 pitches. You want to hit his 2 seamer. Look for the stripes.

I know what you're talking about, I'm saying I never tried to pick them up...and good hitters don't need to.

What level of ball did you play at?

How long have you been coaching?

I've been coached by some of the best minds in the game, and have been instructing hitters since 2006 at the college level.

I was named to the 2008 Rawlings 1st Team All-America in 2008 as the best offensive CF in the nation and was also given their Gold Glove Award as the best defensive CF. That year I led our college to it's 1st NCAA tournament in school history.

I don't think it's about coaching Sir. Just my opinion...a lot of coaches that have been coaching forever are out of touch with today's game.

That's great. Now, can we get back to hitting?

BTW, I don't disagree with anything you've said so far.

What I am saying is that players can't see the spin, as they say they do, so they must be seeing something that helps them identify certain pitches.

It's certainly "movement and speed" like you said, but I wonder if they are also unconsciously picking up dots, circles, etc. as well. You say you never noticed them. I have never spoken to anyone that realized they saw them, even though they exist.

Sorry, but I'm done here. This is why players have such hard time finding good help with their swings. Because there are too many people online voicing opinions instead of instruction backed up by real experience.

This is not a big issue, but you still haven't spoken to where you got your knowledge from. All I'm saying is that I am first and foremost a player. I take my on-field experience and use it to help players.

Have a good one.

A 5 post blowout. That might be a record. Sorry folks.

Interesting discussion on visual mechanics!

Brian nobody questions you were a great player but to become BOTH a great player and a GREAT instructor of the game you need to understand that you ALWAYS can learn something! That is how you constantly improve. You may have been able to hit well once you finally found your "niche" in college and it is commendable that you are helping players learn the game. However your discounting the actual process regarding vision and hitting just because YOU never did it is quite short sighted.

If you would read the enclosed articles from two Dr.'s wit who have worked with both the Mets and Dodgers I think you might understand it a bit more! Like I said, baseball instructional knowledge isn't acquired in a mere 4-5 years of college experience. It is acquired over a lifetime! Rather than questioning the knowledge of the people on the board I would come to the realization that you don't know it all and like the rest of us probably never will, but can always add to your knowledge base!
http://www.frozenropes.com/hom...Eyes%20in%20Baseball

http://www.frozenropes.com/hom...onal-news.aspx?d=222

Hey Baseba777, do me a favor and please point out which post of mine I said that my opinion was the only correct one...?????

You're putting words into my mouth and I don't really appreciate it.

I voiced my opinion and experience on the field. And I asked Sultan what his experiences were...that'll all. I was looking to hear from other player experience in the actual batter's box...and you say that I'm short-sighted.

For you to assume that I do not want to learn is a little arrogant. All you need to do it read my posts...because not once did I say my experiences were the "right" one...quite the opposite.

The only issue I have is when there is no evidence of experience behind the supposed "knowledge"...all I asked Sultan was his playing/coaching background...b/c I was curious. Players should know where posts are coming from so they can make up there own minds as to who to trust.

To Add a slight modification to my comments. Brian I would say you followed many if not ALL of the visual mechanics processes when you were hitting or you never would have been successful. All great/good hitters follow these concepts but as you did state maybe they don't realize it or need it at that point in their career or never will. This is because Most baseball players at the highest level have tremendous eyesight and they have the innate ability to process the information then make the proper adjustments to hit successfully. They just DO IT to coin a phrase.
However, many MLB ballplayers train visually to improve or just maintain their abilities. They realize that if they unbderstand the process of WHAT they are doing they hopefully can reapeat it and continue to be tremendous hitters at the highest levels.
Remember If a student understands WHY they are making adjustments that you recommend, they will be able to apply this information much better. If you just say, "I never did that, so don't look for a seam pattern on a rotating baseball" and expect all students to be successful, you need to reevaluate you methods.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
That's great. Now, can we get back to hitting?

BTW, I don't disagree with anything you've said so far.

What I am saying is that players can't see the spin, as they say they do, so they must be seeing something that helps them identify certain pitches.

It's certainly "movement and speed" like you said, but I wonder if they are also unconsciously picking up dots, circles, etc. as well. You say you never noticed them. I have never spoken to anyone that realized they saw them, even though they exist.

We're on exactly the same page...I only commented because I wanted to know if you saw the dots...because I've heard a couple guys say they see them...but I definitley never tried to. I'd like to know how many major leagues actually look for and identify the dots on curveballs.

quote:

I know what you're talking about, I'm saying I never tried to pick them up...and good hitters don't need to.

What level of ball did you play at?

Sorry, but I'm done here. This is why players have such hard time finding good help with their swings. Because there are too many people online voicing opinions instead of instruction backed up by real experience.

This is not a big issue, but you still haven't spoken to where you got your knowledge from. All I'm saying is that I am first and foremost a player. I take my on-field experience and use it to help players.

I am sorry if I am mistaken but from the tone of your posts you have made statements to the effect that the posters on this board know very little when in fact they are correct regarding visual machanics. You have definitely questioned the validity of the information discussed and discounted what every successful hitter does, even you!

quote:

Originally posted by Baseba777:
To Add a slight modification to my comments. Brian I would say you followed many if not ALL of the visual mechanics processes when you were hitting or you never would have been successful. All great/good hitters follow these concepts but as you did state maybe they don't realize it or need it at that point in their career or never will. This is because Most baseball players at the highest level have tremendous eyesight and they have the innate ability to process the information then make the proper adjustments to hit successfully. They just DO IT to coin a phrase.
However, many MLB ballplayers train visually to improve or just maintain their abilities. They realize that if they unbderstand the process of WHAT they are doing they hopefully can reapeat it and continue to be tremendous hitters at the highest levels.
Remember If a student understands WHY they are making adjustments that you recommend, they will be able to apply this information much better. If you just say, "I never did that, so don't look for a seam pattern on a rotating baseball" and expect all students to be successful, you need to reevaluate you methods.

Again Baseba777...I'm not sure if you're meaning to do this...but you're adding a quote that I have never typed...

I never would tell a hitter to do something I did JUST because I did it. I asked Sultan to voice whether he has ever seen these dots...b/c I'd love to talk to someone who did...and learn from them as to how to came about doing it.

I have never made an adjustment or suggested an adjustment without knowing and/or explaining why it's being made. Again, I don't know if you were giving a hypothetical quote...but it read as if you were putting words in my mouth again.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseba777:
I am sorry if I am mistaken but from the tone of your posts you have made statements to the effect that the posters on this board know very little when in fact they are correct regarding visual machanics. You have definitely questioned the validity of the information discussed and discounted what every successful hitter does, even you!

This is insane that we're hijacking this post yet again...I spoke to 1 person Basebaa...i did not speak to the entire community.

From that quote...you get a negative reaction? I simply stated that I never used these techniques...and that it is not a MUST for every hitter...then asked Sultan where he played.

Again, I apologize if I have taken anything out of context.

When a poster lists his "Baseball Resume", makes statements (again apologize for not listing direct quote) about the quality of other posters knowledge, and then questions their baseball background it comes off as a challenge that they either know less than you or are incorrect.

One thing I always keep in mind! It's what you learn after you know it all that counts!

I think that this could be an interesting thread if we could get over meaningless bickering...

I would like to hear from all posters, the less confrontational we are the more likely good information can be shared and gleaned.

I myself am just a dad of 2 or 3 ball players, my oldest a sophomore in a JUCO.

I have taken my sons to hitting instructors (2) for about 10 years now, both instructors played professionally, one in MiLB and one in the Majors for about 12 years. So I like to think I have gleaned some info over that time, but I never "really" played myself, I did coach at the little league level.

One of the drills that my sons did many years ago, and one that I worked with them on as well pertained to trying to recognize or just focus on the ball. I would grip the ball as a 2 seam and toss underhand from behind a screen and the hitter would need to call out 2 seam if he saw seams. When I griped as a 4 seam, no seams are visible just a blur, and the hitter would identify the pitch as a 4 seam. Of course I would mix it up and the hitter would need to identify 2 or 4 seam. My son did this since he was 10 or 11. I believe he can pick this up intuitively now and can see the Dot on a curve. He has the most difficulty with a change-up but has made improvements with pitch recognition regarding reading change-ups as well, typically by staying back and letting the pitch get deeper in the hitting zone.

My oldest son has spent a significant amount of time being trained specifically for "pitch recognition" and pitch location. I believe that if a hitter is willing to focus on these areas with an instructor who is also convinced of the validity of the training, only good things can result.

This training along with all other training should become ingrained in the mental pyshe of the athlete, so that when the specific elements present themselves, whether it be a low line drive 2 foot foul of the 3rd baseline that is snagged by a diving catch, or recognizing a curve balls break and going with the pitch to drive a double to the right field corner, no intentional thought process is underway, but you have been trained to react.

When I posted this question, I did so to get a sense of what the leading edge of what I would call for lack of a better term; visual mechanics. My son turned 14 last week. His instructor is nearing the end of three months of work on his swing mechanics and we are beginning work on psychology and visual mechanics. I am trying to get as strong a base of knowledge on this subject as I can, to help maximize this side of the training.

The premise of our instructor is that 99% of the effort is put into developing swing mechanics in most training programs today. The “full equation” though is from the time a pitcher is at the rubber to the point of contact. What the pitcher gives. What the batter sees. What tools are out there for a batter to gather more from what he sees. How well the batter executes his process. How well he recognizes what went wrong. How well he handles his emotions and returns to the process between pitches.

We are in a pretty lucky situation. Our instructor is a HS teacher. He is doing this for the love of the game and the love of teaching. Unlike professional trainers who must keep many students to keep the doors open, this guy works with 5 or 6 kids in his basement. We go Sundays and Wednesdays and most sessions last between 1 ½ and 2 hours. This is a guy who worked with his son for years on mechanics etc. before he went off to various US institutions. That puts the dad in touch with a number of coaches at many levels. The focus and attention is like nothing we have witnessed before.

Between 7 and 12YO, my son lived in baseball training facilities twelve months a year. I spent thousands of dollars a year on training. By 12YO, my son had been under two different MLB scouts as coaches. He had been trained by a few former MLB players, a couple dozen different US College and MiLB players.

I appreciate the inputs so far. As I expected, there will be guys that have played at higher levels that will discount this process. I also suspect they will have been hitting a lot of baseballs - the knowledge is empirical and burned in. Things do evolve though in sports. With a kid at 14, who has the experience of hitting well at decent levels of play, with a new swing, why not explore this frontier? He will graduate with the class of 2014, not the class of 1984.

Can anyone recommend a video that shows the red dots, diagonal lines, etc?

I will try to post a video of my son’s mechanics in a couple of weeks. He will be in the cages on Monday for the first time this spring.

Now… if only that snow would melt!