"Walk on now, money later" ...?

I am glad that IFD brought that up.

BHD, just so you are aware there are many folks here whose sons are playing with little or no money (walk ons), because that is where they thought would be the best situation for them and has nothing to do with lack of talent or not being offered at other programs.
They are all very happy, even without most of their education being paid for by the university.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Yes we put location and competition as priorities. For the 1st 2 years things were acceptable and my son enjoyed all aspects of the experience. He is now ready to graduate and has no regrets. He never has had Pro ball in his dreams and BB was never a priority.

But that is what worked for your player, not necessarily what may work for someone else.

Well I feel very good when I tell my son he paid for his education. All that hard work has paid off.

That's wonderful it really is I can understand because most of my son's education also was paid for and the 4th year picked up by his drafting team.
But our situations are most likely the exception rather than the rule, and we should always remember that.
Many of my son's friends did not get big scholarships and did not go onto play pro ball. Their strong college ties got them some great jobs with opportunities to pay off school quickly. That is usually how it happens for most.

TPM brings up a very good point, that being about college degrees enabling student athletes to get a good job after they inevitably give up the game. One of the men who coaches with me had a nine year minor league career, and retired during the strike year, rather than be a scab player while the MLB guys were out. He said something to me the other day that really lends an important perspective to this topic. He said "When I retired from pro ball, I got a job right away with Intel. It wasn't because I'd been a catcher for nine years of pro ball, it was because I had a degree from Cal."

What appears so important today, often doesn't seem nearly so later in life.

I wonder why the APR is so low for BB ? also why were the transfer rates so high prodding the NCAA to restrict transfers ?
I know 5 guys who graduated from my son's college. They all have good jobs right out of college. My son has had job offers already and has one company offer to pay his post grad studies if he will commit to them. You don't have to go to Harvard or Cal to get a good job. It may open a few doors but you have to earn your spot in order to keep it.
Big companies like Intel have a stringent process you go through before they hire anyone.

Bobbleheaddoll, I know that you've been a member of HSBBW for quite some time, so I'm disappointed that when people start a thread asking for advice or information, most people will come on here and try to give just that, but that you seem more interested in getting on your soapbox and pontificating or arguing for the sake of arguement. If you have something positive to say that will contribute to a post, then say it. If all you have to contribute is arguement for the sake of disagreement, then perhaps you should think twice before posting at all. Too often, your posts don't reflect well on you.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Bobbleheaddoll, I know that you've been a member of HSBBW for quite some time, so I'm disappointed that when people start a thread asking for advice or information, most people will come on here and try to give just that, but that you seem more interested in getting on your soapbox and pontificating or arguing for the sake of arguement. If you have something positive to say that will contribute to a post, then say it. If all you have to contribute is arguement for the sake of disagreement, then perhaps you should think twice before posting at all. Too often, your posts don't reflect well on you.

BHD - I have to agree with 06catcherdad. I don't know what it is exactly but your advice does not even seem to be consistent anymore from thread to thread. We do not need people getting in people's faces. It is perfectly legitimate to disagree here but make your point and then let it go. Sometimes it seems as if you are arguing things in order to justify how your son's career has turned out. If that is the case, please don't take it out on the rest of us.

Explain why I get positive PMs thanking me for my point of view ?
If I tell the other side of the college ball then you don't want to hear it.
I don't have to justify my son's situation since it has been a great experience but then I have said that before.
My views are very consistent.

BHD,
You just don't get it.

quote:

My views are very consistent.

"In our case baseball was the farthest thing from my mind.
A short time into the season the Allstar coach kept coming to watch him play as he started to stand out. It was like you turned a switch and I was surprised nyself although I saw nice rotation in his arm and he seemed to pick everything up so easy. He was called up to the allstar team permanantly but would only go if he could still play for his HL team. The league ruled that he could and so he ran from one team to another some times changing in our van. From that time on I knew he was a ball player. Even to this day if he has an essay to do if he can fit baseball in that is what he writes about. Who would have ever thought that little guy would be playing D1 NCAA baseball. I was not really into sports since my university days.
I believe it was his dream that evolved and it became my dream to support him. I also remember driving him to games were he looked really tired and asking him if he still wanted to play and I got the short answer. He is a young man of few words and i gave him lots of outs. I even worry about him being so involved and what if he dosen't make it all the way. The odds are stacked against him but he keeps surprising me."

"He never has had Pro ball in his dreams and BB was never a priority."



BHD, from reading your current posts as contrasted with prior posts, .I am not sure why you made the posts that you have in response to CatcherDad06. I think he went out of his way to provide very helpful and on point information.
I am not sure why you keep bringing your son and his happiness with his college experience/scholarship into discussions.
Your own descriptions sound vastly different between 2006 and today, which is fine.
They are just not consistent.

Hmmmm........reading hsbbweb tonight and it seems like lots of "grumpy old men" posting. If you don't like what is posted and can't add something worthwhile then just don't read it!!!!!

Oops! Guess I should follow my own advice and just don't read it!!

quote:

Originally posted by CaBB:
Hmmmm........reading hsbbweb tonight and it seems like lots of "grumpy old men" posting. If you don't like what is posted and can't add something worthwhile then just don't read it!!!!!

Your criticism is fair imho CaBB. Sometimes the group has to step forward and protect the interests of the group. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

CaBB,
Now here I am thinking I am happier than I have ever been.
Here I am running 4-5 miles, 4-5 days per week at a pace faster than I have ever done.
And then I read I am being referred to as grumpy and old.
But, I agree with you. Next time I won't read it if I don't like it...as soon as I figure out how to do that.....
.

Infieldad, he has to be right about this, because I know I'm old, I turned 50 last week, and my wife always says I'm grumpy!

Actually infielddad- I WASN'T referring to you being a grumpy old man. I was referring to several other posters, not just in this thread. I thought your post was well written.

I want to thank infield for posting my comments about my son when he was 9 yo. It shows how consistent my view are. I didn't really care back then and I don't now. My son cares and he is his own free agent. The reference to all the way is not about pro ball by the way just so you are clear on that..
Actually I am surprised and concern about how certain people feel they should stop me from posting my views based on years of experience and experience with well over 100 college players. I believe 06 and CD who agreed with 06 became personal and if I don't conform to their views I shouldn't post anymore.
Midlo asked for opinions and I gave mine. I thought I asked some provocative questions and instead of getting answers, I got attacked. Believe me when I say I am one happy old guy who doesn't get bothered by people who want to attack what I say.
Some of you cheerleaders do need a group hug. Don't like what I say then don't read it.

BHD,
This seems unnecessary.
The posts speak for themselves in terms of whether your 2006 post reflected your son at 9 years old or whether it comments and described his evolution and passion for the game as a college DI player, including your observation about his possibly being so consumed, you worried about him if he did not make it.
I don't have any issue with your 2006 post.
I don't have any issue with your current description of your son. College and college baseball changes views and viewpoints.
On your being "attacked," well, I don't agree. Is that an attack? Of course not. We have disagreed on many, many topics on this site.
For me, the issue isn't disagreement, it is the reliability of the posting.
Reliability, for a reader on this site, is based on consistency, in part. It is based on knowledge, in part. It is based on experience, in part.
I have accepted your representations of your knowledge and experience. But, in relation to CatcherDad06's post and the reliability of your questioning them, I also know you don't likely have anything relevent to offer about Intel hiring practices in Folsom, CA and the importance of a degree from Cal in that process.
Being a long time poster and reader on this site, I have read many parents poignantly talk about the transition of their son out of playing baseball. I have experienced similar feelings as many of them.
But, I will never say he is happy because baseball was never a priority for him.
Just as you posted in 2006, pitching at a DI combined with your son's passion led you to be concerned about him if he ran into roadblocks.
If he did run into roadblocks, it sounds like he has managed them well and is headed in a great direction.
From where I sit, I wonder whether your son is being given as much credit as he deserves.
In 2006, baseball was his passion, as you posted in 2006.
Today, it isn't.
I don't think it communicates enough credit to your son to now say it never was.

You are confusing my views with his. He still loves the game and will probably continue to play at a high level. He even is considering getting his PHD to become a prof and coach at the college level. He has been offered a coaching position this summer and an assistant coaching position at his college if he takes his MBA there.
His desire to play D1 which was unknown to me until a little over a year before we started looking was to play against top D1 teams which he got to do. As far as he was concerned it was mission accomplished. The coaching issues that TPM referred to had nothing to do with him. In fact the previous coaches rewarded him with a substantial increase in BB money. When he called and talked to me about what was going on I told him to support his coaches and not get involved with coach bashing. The problem came to a head last season and it was one of those unfortunate things. Hopefully things will get back on track for the sake of the student athletes. Normally I would never discuss this but I think it is important for parents and players to know this happens and it is not so rare as many believe. My son dealt with it like he has been taught to do as a young player.
Those who want me to post all nice things and ignore the realities might have to wait until the realities change to all things are nice.
As far as 06 I don't remember being nasty to him. I believe he attacked me and others in the group jumped in.
I hope your group hug helped.

The Intel comment is also interesting. Anyone who has applied for a job with a high powered company like Intel,Xerox and many others knows that the degree gets you through the front door. You are then subjected to a tough series of aptitude tests and psychological evaluations.
Yes I did apply to some high powered companies years ago and yes I was tested along with hundreds of others.

quote:

Anyone who has applied for a job with a high powered company like Intel,Xerox and many others knows that the degree gets you through the front door. You are then subjected to a tough series of aptitude tests and psychological evaluations.

BHD, an employer in CA, like Intel, is not able to do psychological evaluations of applicants for work, or employees. By and large, with a few, very limited exceptions, it is safe to say they are unlawful in CA under our FEHA laws and unlawful in most states as violating the ADA and ADAAA.
As I said, reliability of information is a major factor for me when I read posts on the HSBBW.
Just because it is posted on this site as something you experienced does not make it reliable for others who read it.
It is not an attack to disagree with it.
I could apply this to some baseball posts..but I won't. I think enough has been posted for others to read or to know they shouldn't, as CaBB noted earlier.

I would move my recruiting to Canada. Especially the air pilots.

quote:

Just because it is posted on this site as something you experienced does not make it reliable for others who read it.

I agree.

BHD - you are the one who personalizes everything to your son's situation and then you bully people who disagree. In this thread (after bullying your point over and over), you have proven 06catcherdad's point and you are so blinded by living vicariously though your son that you cannot even see it. His point was that the money is not the only consideration to having a prosperous baseball and academic experience. Your point now seems to be to follow the money and da-mn the baseball experience. Using your son's experience as your example, that seems like awful advice. This is a "baseball" site afterall so please do not lecture people on the importance of baseball and where it fits in the grand scheme of things.

Now you say that baseball was never a priority. That sounds like sour grapes. Why spend so much time on a baseball site spewing forth dubious information then? We could go on and on. In another thread, you made a big deal about advising a D3 player about your son's summer experience when there was not one iota of similarity between them yet it seemed you were more interested in talking about your son. I suggest leaving your son out of the discussion. Your experience and your advice has the potential to cause harm imho.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Just because it is posted on this site as something you experienced does not make it reliable for others who read it.

I agree.

BHD - you are the one who personalizes everything to your son's situation and then you bully people who disagree.

......
I suggest leaving your son out of the discussion. Your experience and your advice has the potential to cause harm imho.

I have to agree with this position, BHD has constantly put out positions which has worked in his son's situation; such as using only DVD's for recruiting vs coaches actually seeing players perform, parent being overly involved in conversations with coaches during the recruiting process, only going to schools that offered substantial money for not a top level player, having a situation where a less than top performing player gets more money from a coach (not noting that the coach gets fired the next season), turning down collegiate summer team assignments that the coach sends the player on, and on and on.

To get back to the original scenario, recruited walking-on to a college baseball team is not the end of the world, there are many positives that can come from that, but I would really want some type of guarantee that he will be on the spring roster for at least the first year, on the other hand, I would not put too much weight on the statement that more money might come in the second year because there will be other recruits that he will be trying to fund the following year.

If the academic, athletic, and social aspects of the program draw you to the school and you want to take the "leap of faith" to trusting the coach at his word, go for it, but there are many a situations where the coaches make statements that promises this or that and situations change where it may not come true, if finances are a concern, I would be very cautious and look at what his track record has been in the past of keeping players in his program year after year, or does he not get his freshman recruits (that are not drafted) onto campus and his fall rosters, on to spring rosters, returning for sophomore year, etc.

quote:

I have to agree with this position, BHD has constantly put out positions which has worked in his son's situation; such as using only DVD's for recruiting vs coaches actually seeing players perform, parent being overly involved in conversations with coaches during the recruiting process, only going to schools that offered substantial money for not a top level player, having a situation where a less than top performing player gets more money from a coach (not noting that the coach gets fired the next season), turning down collegiate summer team assignments that the coach sends the player on, and on and on.

To get back to the original scenario, walking-on to a college baseball team is not the end of the world, there are many positives that can come from that, but I would really want some type of guarantee that he will be on the spring roster for at least the first year, on the other hand, I would not put too much weight on the statement that more money might come in the second year because there will be other recruits that he will be trying to fund the following year.

If the academic, athletic, and social aspects of the program draw you to the school and you want to take the "leap of faith" to trusting the coach at his word, go for it, but there are many a situations where the coaches make statements that promises this or that and situations change where it may not come true, if finances are a concern, I would be very cautious and look at what his track record has been in the past of keeping players in his program year after year, or does he not get his freshman recruits (that are not drafted) onto campus and his fall rosters, on to spring rosters, returning for sophomore year, etc.

Homerun04, well put. I don't disagree with a thing you've said.

I personally know several recruited walk-ons and the vast majority have done very well at their schools. Two of them will be at least part-time starters for their schools as freshmen. "Show me the money" may sound good in the movie theater, and it may help pay the college tuition bill, but the presence of money does not guarantee success and the absence of money does not guarantee failure.

I guess the group hug didn't work.

Yes CD you prove my point. You guys carry a dislike about what I say to every post. I wont stoop to your level.

Baseball Fit: Can the program provide a solid experience, instruct and develop? Does the player have the desire to maximize his tournament chances?

College Fit: Does the campus, location, and social aspect match what the player is seeking? Does the curriculum meet the academic needs? Would the player attend there if baseball was out of the equation?

Financial Fit: Is the college affordable? Is the overall financial package acceptable?

Walk on now, maybe money later is still an opportunity to get on that field in the Fall and perform. If you excel, then the coach gets a bargain.

Are we talking about a few thousand dollars of grant versus more loan?

The average baseball grant is about $6000. I can honestly say son left tremendous money on the table in favor of the other Fits. His choice, and my responsibility to pay for college anyway, athletic grant or not!

quote:

I guess the group hug didn't work.

Yes CD you prove my point. You guys carry a dislike about what I say to every post. I wont stoop to your level.

Bobblehead, I think you've pretty much missed the points I've been making. I'm not criticizing you, but rather have been trying to provide useful information to people who might be interested in reading what I have to contribute. The perspective I'm coming from is a bit different than most, including you, in that I'm an experienced coach who deals with college coaches on a regular basis. Most parents don't have the opportunity to gain this type of experience themselves, so I've tried to help them by sharing my experiences.

BHD, I think the fact that you lend a different perspective is good, but would think you could contribute more if you did so in a positive manner, rather than arguing. You seem to think that I'm picking on you, but nothing could be further from the truth. Comments like you made above, about 'the group hug', do tend to show who is taking things personally. Sarcasm tends to create a perception of you that you probably don't want. I prefer to take the high road, and discuss the subject at hand, without making it personal.

If you'd care to comment in a fashion that is germane to the topic, I'm interested in reading what you have to contribute. If you'd prefer to argue or make your disagreement personal, I'd rather not get in the gutter with you. I try to take the high road, but also follow some great advice I was once given. It was "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." I think that is good advice to pay heed, for all of us. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
..."Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." I think that is good advice to pay heed, for all of us. What do you think?

Me? I think that is hilarious! What a great quote. I see something like that and it makes me think, "how long have I lived a sheltered life?", because I've never heard it.

Sorry for the interruption, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
..."Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." I think that is good advice to pay heed, for all of us. What do you think?

Here is a corollary...

Decades ago, my father and I are temporarily in a bad part of town, approached by thugs...he goes into a wild twitching, shreiking routine completely unlike him...thugs back off...we walk on...he turns to me and says quietly with complete clarity, "make 'em think your crazy, they'll leave you alone"...works every time.

44
.

First hand walk-on story with D1 school-top 5 national ranking! Player turned down 25% to two Mid level d1's and several juco's (3) to walk on at power house. Made the fall team and practiced for 20 days. Completed all of the NCAA paper work and was cut with 3 other players that brought roster size to 35. Since this happened in October, 2 players injured and one player playing two sports will miss 20 days during spring football. Roster size down to 32. If the 3 that were cut still could be keep in wings, roster could still be full. Not the way NCAA thinks should work. 3 kids who can play now have to sit out for a year or try to make it again next year as a walk-on. The difference between # 9 position player and # 36 is very little at this level. This team all american catcher was a walk-on and under this years rules, he may not have even made the team. Be very careful with the walkon offers. The coaches will have some very difficult decisions to make and your son ability may not have very much to do with it. Ask Louisiana Lightining?

Wouldn't recommend walking on . . . walk-on son just cut after three years (RJr.) in favor of scholarship JUCO transfers even though son performed better than a couple of them in fall practice.

Has anyone had experience with getting this sort of promise and: Yes

Having the promise kept? No

Having the promise broken? Yes

quote:

Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

06catcherdad,

I often think of that quote, which I believe I first read as Fungo's tagline here. Is that where you heard it also? I think that it's so true, and funny at the same time.

Julie