Want to be a two-way player?

Fungo, I think that's very good advice! Establishing yourself as a hitter and having the ability to pitch is a combination to allow you to do so. A player that has effectively done both in HS WILL have offers from some schools to do both as well. However, he will also have offers to just pitch as some schools do not want a player to do both.

I was always a fan of a dual kid. However, having a college son has opened my eyes to some realities that I hadn't observed first hand before. At my son's JUCO and at his current school, you do the work outs of the pitchers and the position player. You are simply not able to focus completely on one. This takes time physically and mentally that is very difficult for a college player to give. It's unlike HS where you can run some with pitchers and divide up your practice time.

My own son has decided to just focus on pitching now in college because of the challenge of dividing himself in two ways. He feels like he can't continue to grow and develop as a pitcher if he splits time. He has goals as a pitcher that he wants to meet. For a mom that LOVES to watch the swing of a good bat, that brings me some sadness. However, I completely understand now what I didn't a year ago.

With that said, will I be a mom on the sidelines fantasizing about son's team being short in a big game and they need another bat.... in comes my son to the plate where he belts into the gap bringing in the winning run!! No, of course not....

Fungo's and lafmom's posts ring very true for me. Many of our sons coming up through high school play the game well enough (and are athletic enough) to contribute as both position players and pitchers; but, the dramatically elevated level of collegiate baseball, particularly major college baseball, tends to force them to concentrate on one or the other. Accordingly, the higher the level of college baseball, the more difficult it becomes to function as a two-way player.

The topic brings to mind a couple of recollections:

(1) At the conclusion of a pitching lesson one afternoon, my then sophomore or junior in high school asked his instructor how long he should continue to play both ways. He posed the question because he was aware that the instructor had been a very fine high school shortstop and pitcher before concentrating on pitching in college. By this time, the instructor was pitching at the minor league level.

The instructor responded with what I thought was very good advice. He said, "Play both ways until someone who controls the innings you get tells you to concentrate on one or the other."

As obvious as his advice might sound, it said to me that there would come a time when my son would need to put his future in a trusted coach's hands and follow the path he recommended.

(2) The second recollection takes me to a recruiting conversation with current head coach, Mike Fox. When asked how he felt about my son contributing as an infielder as well as a pitcher, he said, "If your son...or any other pitcher for that matter...demonstrates that he can handle a bat well enough that he'd regularly be judged among the top 10 batters on our roster, we'll find a way to keep him involved as an infielder."

Of course, what Coach Fox knew...and I would only come to appreciate better once I'd had a chance to observe it myself...was that the players who are chosen to play positions at a major DI program are superior batters. Many, if not most, of them concentrated upon a position coming up without the distraction of pitching, and by the time they're chosen to play at that level they set a standard that's extremely difiicult for a player who also pitches to meet.

quote:

"If your son...or any other pitcher for that matter...demonstrates that he can handle a bat well enough that he'd regularly be judged among the top 10 batters on our roster, we'll find a way to keep him involved as an infielder."

quote:

once I'd had a chance to observe it myself...was that the players who are chosen to play positions at a major DI program are superior batters.

A most excellent post and observations, Prepster.

I hope you don't mind my repetition and emphasis.

Fungo, lafmom, Prepster, and FO.....great posts.....

When my son was growing up I was an NAIA head coach. He had the luxury of basically growing up in a college dugout and at our practices, on the road recruiting, etc. When he was in 9th grade and he told me that he wanted to play baseball for as long as he could, I knew that he had some desire, etc.

When he was a sophomore he was taking pre-game infield at SS (as the backup) and a DI coach standing next to me said, "Gordie, your boy will not play for you.....with hands like that, he's going bigger."

Going into his junior year he had been noticed on the mound by a few DI coaches and they started recruiting him the way juniors are recruited. Though he was a good infielder and a switch hitter, I knew that his future in college would be on the mound, so I suggested to him that he stop switch hitting.......he was and is slender, and I just didn't want him taking a fastball to the right elbow.

A couple of the DI coaches, during his campus visits, said that they liked the way he played the infield and swung a bat (I don't think he would be a good DI hitter).....but we (I?) told them that he has no illusions of being a DI hitter.

He now has no desire to swing a bat, and even though he was an excellent hitter as a HS senior, as soon as he stepped foot on his college field he hasn't looked back or ever wanted to hit. There are some situations where I think he could help the team as a late inning baserunner when he isn't pitching, but he is content to take his turns on the mound.

Funny thing, when he was about six one of my pitchers told him that he better not let me teach him how to pitch, because then someday he'll never get to hit anymore. He was right, but his ceiling as a pitcher is significantly higher than his ceiling as a hitter.

I understand what you all are saying, And it's something that might happen sooner are later.
But I'm hopeing upon hope that the coach allow's my son a chance to play both way's.
Only time will tell.
Being a Lefty, he's Trained all his life for 3 position's
(OF, 1st Base, LHP ).
And he hit's for power.
So I hope he is given a chance to Prove he can play both way's.

EH

quote:

So I hope he is given a chance to Prove he can play both way's

EH, he'll have the chance, but on the college teams, it's hard for a player's second strength, to be better than another player's first strength.

Not like high school where the starting nine has to come from the high school population.

The colleges get their choice from every high school in the country.

Fungo,
Good post as always.

There are many programs that utilize players as position and pitcher. Most are smaller programs with small budgets. Very few are larger programs that finds a player that is also needed for their HITTING, a good example is Sean Doolittle of UVA. The difference there is that he can HIT as well as pitch. He plays first when not pitching. Clemson had a player, drafted in 2005, who was a starter and DH. He broke HR records for the school and the ACC, and even helped to win his own games, but he was an exception. The exception was he was a pitcher who could HIT, consistantly.

At larger programs you will also find that a coach that has awarded a nice scholarship to a pitcher will not take the chance of him getting hurt, so as pitcher he remains, despite jacking one out in batting practice.

I do strongly feel that a position player who is able to hit, play infield, outfield will have more opportunities. JMO

Lot's of good points made here IMO. I do agree with Fungo that a player wanting to do both is best off coming in as a hitter than a pitcher. But understanding that things do change once a player gets to college.

The higher the level the less likely you'll see as many 2-way players, but it can and does happen. I've known players who have decided to play college baseball at a bit lower level in order to continue playing both ways.

Being a two-way player at the higher college levels is determined by the players talent. But there are colleges that simply don’t often use 2-way players.

Many times we have seen outstanding 2-way kids in high school. Sometimes even as seniors in high school it is hard to predict which way they will develop the most. We have even seen kids who play another position and don’t pitch much, but we feel their ceiling is higher as a pitcher. It does happen where a high school position player who didn’t pitch before their senior year, end up being drafted as pitchers.

IMO The most talented need to do both until it becomes obvious what they become most valuable at. If that means doing both at the college level, they need to find the college program that allows it.

Example - We watched a young LHP/OF grow up. He was a very talented outfielder and one of the better LHP in the country. At 6’4” throwing 90+ mph as a lefty made us think his best future would be on the mound. He was recruited by Tony Gwynn at San Diego State to both pitch and play outfield. Even our staff had mixed opinions if he would pitch or play the outfield in professional baseball.

He didn’t end up going to San Diego State because he was an early draft pick and signed as an outfielder. That was only a couple years ago and this week outfielder Ryan Sweeney just got called up by the Chicago White Sox.

In the meantime a year later there was another 6’4” hard throwing LHP/OF from California that was very similar to Sweeney in ability. This talented player signed with Santa Clara as a 2-way player. Only in this case most thought this lefties highest ceiling was as a hitter. The Indians drafted and signed him and actually allowed him to pitch and hit in Rookie Ball. (that is rare) This year Chuck Lofgren has become one of the best pitching prospects in professional baseball.

Point is… Two very similar players… Two separate results. Sometimes it’s even hard to call until the college career is over… ie. Michah Owings

Bottom line IMO… If a player has the ability to play 2-ways and especially if he might be a pro prospect either way… He should go somewhere and find out which direction he will most develop.

I think a college 2-way player should be capable of being a big impact both ways. Otherwise he would be better off concentrating on one or the other.

quote:

So I hope he is given a chance to Prove he can play both way's

He'll have the opportunity EH! My own lefty has had and has the opportunity... but chances are your son may make a choice one way or another when he's off to college. Trust me when I say, I never thought my own son would willingly give up a bat! But he's doing that because he feels it's best for him to focus on his pitching. Best for him and in the long run.... the best for his team.

You raise them to make independent and intelligent decisions and some day they just go and do that despite what's in their momma's heart!

I'd like to add one other tidbit, if you want to be a two way player, also find a program where the coach allows his players to do so. Some coaches are against it totally, some are open to it. It all comes back to doing your research before making a decision.

quote:

chances are your son may make a choice one way or another when he's off to college.

Yes his choice I hope, You have to prove you can do both.
I believe his Hitting ability will win a spot somewere in the line-up.
I can't understand with today's athletes why the Pro's don't have 2 way player's.
I believe that when a team start's to go back to 2 way player's that it will work.
In fact if some of the small market team's would look for 2 way player's and play that way.
They would be able to get more bang for the buck.
there money would go farther, carry extra pitching.

I don't believe in protecting your investment mentality.
There ball player's let them play. EH

thEH,
I don't think the professional player would want to be a two way player where doing both could have a negative impact on his ability to be the best he could be at his best position. His career could hang on a 10 point drop in his BA or .5 increase in his ERA and I think being a two way player would impact both to that degree.
Fungo

Then let's start a league just for 2-Way Players.
The MVP would be the Player that had the Highest Avg.
in all the Different catagory's ( ERA, K's, BA, H, R, RBI,HR)
Ect. All averaged out and the Top Player could be named MVP
for the season.

Well Play 2-Way as long as you can , I suppose.
Then figure out where's your best chance of moving on. EH

Going two ways is very difficult. You have to give something up. As much as I love watching my son do both, I would also be interested in what his stats would be if he concentrated on one or the other. He never missed a bullpen session, but did miss batting practice. He never missed a start in JC this last year, 17 starts, but there were games that his arm didn't allow him to play his position, 3rd, so he DH'd. The team was blessed to have another 3rd baseman.

But I agree with the above, do it as long as you can, until the guy controlling innings makes a choice.

theEH, et al:

If you truly are "hopeing on hope that the coach allows my son a chnce to play both ways" and all you hear is "he will get a chance" you need to get on that College's website, click on baseball and then click on statistics for as many years as they have available. Look at the hitting stats, the fielding stats and the pitching stats for names only. Is there one or more names that appear in all three places? If not, your son will probably not get the chance at that school no matter what you are told. If there is one or more names in all three places, that is a school that will keep that promise [to at least give him a chance] because they have already done so at least once.

Good luck

TW344

...an interesting thing that many of you will find out is that the college coaches will decide when, where, and how many positions your son will play.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
...an interesting thing that many of you will find out is that the college coaches will decide when, where, and how many positions your son will play.

I think Fungo's advice is very good, if you think you are a hitter that can pitch then you have a much better chance of being a two way player if you go in that way.

Taking this thought a little further for those of you that are planning on attending showcases this year you may want to consider how you list yourself when you send in your application.

My son attended several showcases and we always listed him as a Pitcher/1B/3B. This indicates that he is primarily a pitcher and I feel it influences how the player is percieved when they are evaluated. Hind sight says that he was actually a hitter that could pitch. In 3 PG evaluations they always indicated that they liked his hitting ability but they saw his future on the mound. He did always pitch well at these showcases but he never became a 90+ type that gets recruited heavily. If he was initially promoted as a position player that could hit they might have looked into him a little deeper as a hitter and found he was a kid that hit for average and for power at every level. Unfortunately at showcases unless you come in with a reputation as a hitter it is far more difficult to judge the talent.

What I am trying to say is, even before you get to college you need to try and figure out where you fit best. In high school you can generally still do everything but when it comes to the next level how you position yourself may have a very big impact into the way you are recruited. It seems to me that coaches that are after a hitter are always pleasantly surprised when the find out the kid can pitch but when they are recruiting a pitcher and find out the kid can hit it confuses the heck out of them.

quote:

I understand what you all are saying, And it's something that might happen sooner are later.
But I'm hopeing upon hope that the coach allow's my son a chance to play both way's.
Only time will tell.
Being a Lefty, he's Trained all his life for 3 position's
(OF, 1st Base, LHP ).
And he hit's for power.
So I hope he is given a chance to Prove he can play both way's.

EH

Update, they have just listed player's and position's on son's college roster.
Son is listed as UT.(utility)
the only player listed UT.
So that's a good sign Right?? EH

Ok guys, here's my take. My LHP has always been able to hit for average, but got pegged as a pitcher years ago because of his smaller stature, and because he's an oppo-field (Ichiro-style) hitter. (Some coaches mistake this style for lack of power. It's really just reading the ball deeper in the zone.) It's a bit frustrating, because he hits curveballs real well (reading the spin longer) while the bigger guys on his teams just twist over the top of them and K. (Sigh.) I know too he's hit over .375 in every league he's played in the past four years. Lately for power. But he's got a good arm, he's a lefty, and he's small.

Anyway, what I'm saying here is I know the at-bats are slow slipping away, and that's okay because his future is pitching, but I still love to hear someone say, "Wow, he's a really good hitter." Savor it while I can.

Well, all I can say at this point is in my son's case it's going to be wait and see what unfolds this year.

He was recruited by Fresno as a two-way player ... coaches just said they felt he could contribute with his bat and on the hill, then it was just a matter of where he excelled the most over time and how hard he wanted to work to do both. It's very clear that trying to be two-way is going to be a lot more work ... but he was used to that from HS and the amount of extra time he put into hitting on his own vs his pens, workouts, etc., so that's not a surprise. He knew that the 'extra' factor would jump at the college level ... and he's aware that both he and the coaches at some point may face a decision point. I think he's OK with all that and is willing to just let it develop. There's always that risk that by trying to be good at everything you end up not being the absolute best at anything, so a player has to just be objective about it, know how far his innate abilities can take him ... know when it's beginning to work against him.

While he loves to hit, I think the hardest change if he moved into a pitcher-only role would be watching games from the bullpen on days he's not pitching. Mentally, he loves game critical situations, whether that's on the hill with two outs, man in scoring position, or in the batters box with the winning run on base. He's always wanted a ball or bat in his hand in a pressure game sitation. Being a pitcher-only, and watching a game knowing you can't pitch in the rotation for a couple days, knowing you can't impact the outcome of this game, would be a tough adjustment.

I just stay out of it other than to just offer fatherly advice: work as hard as you can, develop your abilities to their fullest, and earn your playing time every day wherever the coach decides to put you. There are a lot of things you can't control in life/baseball ... but you can control your preparedness, your attitude, and your effort level.

You see a lot of kids that go to college that forget that this student/athelete thing really is a full time job. While it can "be fun", they're not there "for fun" ... i.e., they're getting paid to work, paid by the baseball program, paid by their parents, even paid by their own savings, etc.

My son is a 2007 3B/RHP/1B. His "calling card" has always been the fact that he can hit for power. His invites to Area Code Tryouts, Pro Scout tryouts, interest from D1s has always been because of his hitting -- his absolute passion. HOWEVER, now that we are in the midst of recruiting... it has become somewhat apparent to me during this early signing period that the universities are after LHPs, RHPs, catchers, and everyone else (in that order).

My son pitched 86 recently at a PG showcase and his evaluation said "two way player". He has only recently begun pitching lessons and the instructor says he has been hitting 86 or so without using any of his lower body strength.

My question is... should I change our strategy at this point to market him as a RHP that can also hit (left)? I am REALLY second guessing everything now!

I wouldn't change, Your son is a baseball player first.
Go in as a hitter that can pitch.
3B, 1st base are power hitter's. JMO EH

My son is a LHP/1B and during the recruiting process the idea that he would have some opportunity to try to be a two way player was important to him. Most of the D2 schools really pushed this as an advantage. The school that he chose not only said that they would give him a chance (and they are doing so) they actually had a LHP last year who often DH'd when he wasn't pitching - so there was some history of the possibility.

I think choosing a program where a coach will take full advantage of your skills is a great thing. As for pitching you can never have enough arms. In son's school some came in as position players and went out as pitchers. One came as a pitcher, was the DH and starting pitcher his last year and was drafted as a hitter.
Smart coaches will look for players who can play a variety of positions, and develop them as they are needed. This also avoids redshirting.

One of the reasons why I always say it is good to try to learn as many positions as you can in HS, if given the opportunity.

Well, the day of quasi-decision arrived. Son started out the fall working both in the pen and on the field/cage. At the end of Sept. he badly sprained an ankle running stairs. After intensive physical therapy he was back to throwing off a mound after a couple weeks (left - landing foot) but couldn't hit due to the twisting motion on the ankle.

The good news: he's been pitching very, very well and the coaches are very happy with the results (particularly the pitching coach). The bad news: he definitely fell behind in the field and batting cage work due to the bum ankle ... he's just now able to take a twisting torque load.

The coaches spoke with him and together they decided for him to focus on pitching this year and continue to work in the batting cage on his own for the possibility that he might hit some next year.

I think it was a combination of things ... the coaches like what they see on the mound and know they need pitching this year; they have plenty of upperclassmen at 1B/DH already so his bat is less key to the team this year; he missed a month of BP work due to the ankle still not being 100% so he's behind the curve there; and it was obvious that as a new frosh it was a struggle to work in the pen, run out to do infield, take BP, run with the pitchers, and work the defensive plays. He always felt that he was 'missing' something in both roles, either dry work in the pen or defensive plays and signs, because he was shifting back and forth between the two groups of players. You could tell he was feeling frustrated that he was falling behind in one role or the other because he always had to run off and do something else. While he loves to hit, I think he likes feeling like he's able to focus, really grow and contribute to the team.

Maybe he'll hit next year, maybe he won't ... it's up to him how hard he wants to work at it on his own time to keep his hand-eye coordination trained. The only downside is he won't see much live pitching. For me, I just care that he's happy. It's between him and the coaches, and he's seems to be feeling good about what he's doing on the mound right now. I know part of the difference is feeling like he's being successful at one thing instead of unsuccessful at two.