Want to make the smart decision...

I would go with the higher level coaching. #2

I am pleased that academics are a part of your consideration. Very important. We have seen son's friends miss out on college baseball opportunities due to poor grades.

At 13u the opportunity to get out from under head coaches with players on the team is a great one.

I do believe that playing against top level talent is important - but not important enough to forego the other pluses with team number 2. In a year or two it becomes more important.

I would go with team number 2.

Rob T,

As a parent of a Sophomore who just went through where you are now, I can say that it is not easy.

My son played on the highest competitive local travel team, but happened to play the same positions as the sons of the 4 coaches. You must be careful here. I have found in my expereince that, with few exceptions, the coaches look out for their sons first and foremost. It got to the point where I think my son's development was slowed somewhat. We are now in a stituation (as he moved up in the same organization) where there are no parents coaching anymore and he feels like a burden was lifted. There was very little developmental coaching by the parent coaches. I would sometimes even get the feeling that they were holding back in order to make their own sons look better.

I am sure that there are others out there with different opinions, but I can only relate what I saw in a few of the local travel organizations. Based on what I know now and also considering your ultimate academic goals, I would recommend that you go for the better coaching.

My son is one year older than your son. Last year my friend convinced me to keep our team together for one more year with dads doing the coaching.

I wished I had listened to my gut and said no. It was a disaster and miserable for pretty much all kids, coaches, and parents involved.

This year we hopped over to the youth program of a top travel organization. Lot less tourneys this fall but lot more practice and controlled scrimmages. One practice with this group was all it took to make me feel comfortable with our choice. I have seen solid improvements in all areas of his game.

Especially with the academic situation and the future High School he would like to attend I say go for team 2. I just threw away a bunch of trophies. Don't mean much to my son or anyone else for that matter.

How about this:
Play with team two and then when they're done, assuming they don't go or qualify for a national tourney, pick up with a team that needs some extra players to go play in the big event. Lots of teams add to their roster before heading out for the big ones.

When my son was 13, he was excluded from a team that was very much like Team #1. He ended up playing for a team like Team #2 where one of the assistant coaches (and parent of a player) was a former D1 Head Coach.

To make a long story short, my son's team faced "Team #1" in the semi-final of a tournament and won. A lot of gutsy plays and great coaching helped get us that win. Our team went on to win the tournament with my son shutting down the other team as the relief pitcher in the final game against a team that had also defeated "Team #1".

I can't say enough about great coaching at a younger age to really help develop skills and bring out the best in players.

This is starting to look unanimous....

Rob, I think I can explain my thinking through my son's experience at 13U and 14U (he is now 15).

Son played 13U and 14U primarily for a team that, while classified as a Majors level squad, was closer to the Team #2 squad you describe than Team #1. We played, and had moderate success, in some regional and national tournaments, but mostly played more local and state-level tournaments, as well as the local select league (which they did very well in), and son did very well on this team. This team was coached by a former MLB pitcher.

The best team in that select league was more like your Team #1. They finished 13U by winning the Triple Crown WS, and set out to play a national schedule (Arizona, Southern Cal Super NIT, Elite 32 among others) as a 14U team. They were Dad-coached.

For a variety of reasons, my son was offered a spot on their squad to go to the Triple Crown Arizona Spring Championships, which he took and the team came right out of the rain and warehouses and went down there and won that tournament, beating several highly ranked AZ and CA teams along the way. Later, over Memorial Day, they asked him to play with them again in the Southern CA Super NIT, where they beat the then nationally #1-ranked 14U team in pool play before losing to them in the final, but managed to secure the Elite 32 WS invite along the way.

After the season, my son's team disbanded (coach couldn't commit to continuing with them) and son had offers from several higher-profile teams in the NW, including this Elite 32 team I've described.

After much thought and discussion, we went with what many would describe as a more developmental option. One MAJOR reason was the Dads in the dugout issue. The further you get away from LL ages and into select and travel ball, the more suspect it is for Dads to be coaches. More often than not, they are there to protect Junior from challenges to what may have been their former supremacy as kids mature and gaps in talent that were based on differing maturation rates start to close. Why is Coach Jr. still starting every game when he isn't performing as well as this kid who is riding the pine, etc., etc.

I think that is an issue more often than not with Dad-coached teams at this level, especially when they start assembling an elite travel squad like it sounds like your Team #1 is. I'd say Backstop32's and HVbaseballDad's experience is pretty typical, and matches what we saw on a limited basis.

Then of course there is the issue of coaching and connections to your son's HS of choice. That would probably be enough for me right there, even without considering the potential dysfunction on a Dad-coached team.

While you are in the middle of it, winning national and even regional tournaments seems like a big deal, but the reality is that not many people are paying attention. The most important thing at 13-14U is to get better, so go with the team that will best prepare your son for his HS years. To me, that seems to be Team #2. Like YesReally said, it's more important at 13-14U than playing top-level talent, even though there will come a time and place for that.

And, like cball said, many top travel teams pick up players for national-level tournaments (as was my son's experience). You can have the best of both worlds if you want it and seek it out. If you don't burn any bridges with Team #1 in making your decision, it might even come with them!

Seems like a familiar story to me! At 13 we chose a team like team 2 and there was a team 1. They beat us each time we played the first summer and I wondered if we had made the wrong choice.

By summer two, we beat them every time and never looked back. By summer three the daddy ball team splintered and many tried to get on our team but by then only their top athlete was able to make the team.

Always go with the best coach! Now basically our whole team will go off to play in college next year and only one or two of them will. Coaching is everything and lot's of the physical talent at 13 has to do with who has grown....that all changes over a few years.

I forgot to add that, at least by the end of your 14U year, if not 13U, you'll start to see opportunities to try out for regional showcases (for us it is an organization called Baseball Northwest), which in turn can present national opportunities, like USA Baseball. That's been a big part of my son's development, and one reason we felt comfortable playing up (he'll play 16U this summer) on a team that plays in a competitive local league, but is more developmental than on the "national" stage - he'll have plenty of opportunities to play top-level talent on the showcase circuit. I'd guess that those opportunities will be there for your son, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by VaRHPmom:
I can't say enough about great coaching at a younger age to really help develop skills and bring out the best in players.

Forget all the other stuff... this is the single biggest factor at this age IMO.

The only possible disclaimer would be if #2 is at least playing against reasonable competition and playing enough games to keep the player's interest level up.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

"The only possible disclaimer would be if #2 is at least playing against reasonable competition and playing enough games to keep the player's interest level up."

Good point, cabbagedad. If your son is head and shoulders better than most if not all of the kids on Team #2, and/or the teams they are playing, boredom and frustration could be a real concern. OTOH, if the coach is as good as advertised, this shouldn't be too much of a problem long-term.

I would go with Team 2 hands down. At 13, kids are still learning and developing skills for the game. They need a competent coach who can explain to them what they are doing wrong or right, not just a coach who is concerned about trophy chasing. Sacrifice the glory now for skills later.

13U is a big transitional year with the change to the 60/90 field. I would go with the better instruction. I've seen teams who focused on recruiting the early bloomers. They strut their stuff because the team wins. By 15U they can't recruit players as the players and parents come to realize the coaching staff hasn't taught them much to get to the next level. These coaches will spend the rest of their lives talking about their 9U to 14U "heroics."

chef Jr is in a bit of a different situation. Basically he played for team number 1 for many years. 8u - 15u. He is 16u next summer. At 16u he is still playing for same team, however his coaching circumstances. , A friend of mine was HC and, as said by RJM, a good recruiter for 8-14u. I was a coach as well. Over the years, because of HC need to win at all costs, questionable baseball game tactics, pretty boring static practices, and how he treated some parents, we steadily became a mediocre team. I gave Jr the option every year to look for another team, but he is very loyal and several of his very good frineds played on his team, so he always wanted to stay. At 14u, we added a coach (Bob, who is a dad) who had major college experience. He had been HC for a very successful team for years, but was burnt out on being HC. His son was friends with many of our players, so an easy transition to our team. After watching him coach for about a month, I realized how much I didn't know! His detailed help with Chef Jr and others was refreshing. I began to defer to him on decisions, however HC was unwilling to let go and we continued to be more and more mediocre. ChefJr (and I) became very frustrated with how team was going and were ready to leave. At end of last year, both other asst coach (Bob) and I approached HC and gave him a choice of, we are leaving with our sons, (and frankly 8 others were leaving as well) or he could not be coach. He is a class guy and stepped down. In fact, he and son left for another team. The new HC is the other assistant now (Bob). We had a flocking of players who would not return calls to play for us previous 2 years. So, in this case chefJr is still playing for dad's (including his own), however, the coaching is MUCH better. I am a glorified helper and am very happy to be so.

ChefJR has been "picked up" by several teams with paid coached over the years and basically it depends on the coach on whether, he learned anything or not.

The reason I am replying is because I have seen both sides of Dad coaching and paid coaching. I think it really depends on the coach! In OPS, I would say team number 2 simply because he will get better coaching.

chefmike, I hope you don't take my comments (or others') about Dads in the dugout as a blanket criticism. Of course, every situation is different (though what you described of your experience is pretty typical of the danger I was trying to describe, at least before you changed coaches). I wouldn't say ALL Dad coaches are bad, just that it comes with a kind of inherent conflict of interest that some (maybe even most) Dad coaches are less able to handle appropriately.

The other thing is, I'm not talking about Dad coaches who describe themselves as "glorifed helpers." Good lord, that describes me as well! Just the guys running the practices, and making the playing time decisions. Every team needs the "glorified helpers" and they're lucky to have 'em....

Edgar, I didn't take it as criticism at all. The dangers were there all along on our team and got increasingly worse. Two really specific thing happened on this team, that lead to the coaching change in my opinion.
1. former HC son did not develop over the years like others, last 3 years he became the last player to play (I give the HC credit for that!). When he did play, he had a hard time competing.
2. former HC could not accept failure from his better players. He got vocally mad more than once at 1-6 hitters, top 3 pitchers, etc when they did not perform. It happens, every player has bad days or tournaments. He, also, did not see what "bad vs. good" perfomance was in my opinion. Such as, player hits a rocket but right at CF with runners on, he would say, player is not clutch, while a bloop hit that scored a run was.

New HC is low key, very detailed about what went wrong. His favorite saying when as player gets an out is " review your at bat, what did you learn, apply it your next at bat"

I guess I am more than glorified helper. I am considered a coach , I do run practices but I do it under Bob's guidance, I do make out the line up most of the time, but again after consulting him. I have begun to be a much better coach because of him.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

I'm pretty sure we will end up with team #2. Ultimately, I think it is the decision that's best for my son's future.

During the try-out for #2 the coach pointed out a small flaw that my son had while playing SS. It was a simple fix and easily got my son's throws to first a half step faster. It was a flaw that neither I nor anyone who had coached him in the previous 7 years or so had noticed. It's the type of correction I just don't think would have been made with team #1, and it's the type of coaching I want him to get. We can do without the trophies for the short term.

Chef....problem is I have never seen a dad sit their kid when another is out performing him. This could be because I have never seen a Dad coach give another kid who may challenge his for play time the chance to prove who should be playing. Also, as your post illustrated, Dads run in packs and so at one point 1/3 of your staring line up at least was related to coaches. Until we chose to go the paid coach route at 13, my son played for a team that after 4 years had 6, yes 6 alpha male coaches and their little super stars. I have always let my son stand on his own two feet in team situations and it can get a little old. I have plenty of time to toss him in the cage or whatever but I didn't feel the need to be called coach...I did feel the need to find a coach who played the best and wasn't related to the players. I do not mean offense, it's just we all know (NOT SAYING YOU) that many dads stay it it to make sure junior succeeds.

Calisportsfan, no arguement here. I AM looking out for JR and so is now HC for his son. that is what parents do in one way or other. The nice thing about this particular situation, is HC and I are very honest with each other about our kid. When either aren't performing, the other is responsible for making the correct team move. That being said, I ,and HC, are definitly imperfect people and without realizing it probably side with our kid first. The MAIN reason we have not moved to a paid coash is simply $. Our team fees are very reasonable. Several players (3) and thier parents are here because we get into some of best midwest (OH, IN, PA, KY, MI) tournaments. We asked last year for a list of colleges each player was interested in, and looked for tournaments that they can be seen by most of those colleges. We have hired, short term, both hitting and pitching coaohes to work with individuals or as a team. It seems to work for this team anyways. I will keep you updated as the season starts and goes forward next year (we don't start until end of May, beginning of June).

quote:

Originally posted by Rob T:

Head coach isn't overly concerned with wins and losses, and is a hired coach without a kid on the team.

The head coach is very experienced (see below). Without a doubt, my son would get the better coaching with this team.

That is about all i would need to make a decision.

Just an update -

We ended up going with team #2.

It's looking like my son will be one of the team's starting pitchers, and when not on the mound will start at SS or C.

The coach thinks once he is taught the proper footwork he will be a very good SS. It's kind of surprising considering my son has probably played a total of 15 innings at SS in his life. (Well - unless you want to throw t-ball in)

The coach was an all-state infielder in his playing days, so I guess he knows what he's looking for.

The team has also decided to hire a former MLB pitcher to come in as the team's pitching coach. Aside from mechanical issues, he's also going to be working with the pitchers and catchers on the mental aspect of pitching, developing good pick-off moves, and teaching hitters what pitches to expect - and how to recognize them.

I don't know how many games we are going to win, but I'm pretty sure the coaching my son is receiving will pay off for him in the future.

quote:

We ended up going with team #2.

Looks to be a wise choice. Now that the decision is made, he needs to get to work to ENSURE that he makes the most of this opportunity.

Best of luck!

Rob - Good choice and good luck to your son. As for the SS position, don’t be surprised if he performs well at that position. The arm strength and velocity required to play SS is very similar to what you want in a pitcher. The difference will be in his ability to move to the ball... quick. SS have to be quick on their feet and have a strong, hard throw to FB. If you can find a good Pitcher that is quick on his feet and has a good bat... odds are he will make a good SS.

quote:

Head coach isn't overly concerned with wins and losses, and is a hired coach without a kid on the team.

Just curious...At what point does winning become important?

I know players that played on 'developmental' teams pre-HS, mediocre HS teams and now attend mid-level D1 schools that perennially lose more games than they win...

Winning isn't everything, but I've always wanted to be in a position where we could win. I'd think it would be terribly frustrating to never have any team success....

while i do think the younger years are about developing good mechanics, some level of success is necessary at some point in order to keep the momentum and focus. I think Vince said it best...

If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? "Vince Lombardi"

quote:

Originally posted by Hawk19:

quote:

Head coach isn't overly concerned with wins and losses, and is a hired coach without a kid on the team.

Just curious...At what point does winning become important?

I know players that played on 'developmental' teams pre-HS, mediocre HS teams and now attend mid-level D1 schools that perennially lose more games than they win...

Winning isn't everything, but I've always wanted to be in a position where we could win. I'd think it would be terribly frustrating to never have any team success....

Winning is always important. But winning can be defined in ways other than the score in the development years. But no one likes playing on a bad team. It's not fun.

I also believe playing with the game on the line often is important towards learning mental toughness. Some travel teams dominate and play very few close games. At 13U and 14U we were a notch below these teams. When we beat them it went down to the last out. We often beat the teams just below us the same way.

quote:

Just curious...At what point does winning become important?

Well, winning is always important if you are keeping score.

The unfortunate side of baseball at the younger levels is that there are things that can be done to win more games that will do nothing for the growth of the players - and in many cases be detrimental to their futures.

Our coach says that he has won plenty of games at the college and high school levels, so winning at the 13U level isn't a big deal to him. He wants to teach the players to play to the best of their abilities, and to execute proper techniques and strategies. If they also manage to win games - great, but we're not losing any sleep over it.

RobT - Sounds like you made a great decision. I hope your son has a positive experience. From what you are saying about the coach, the wins will come. But the biggest win will be how much your son is going to learn.

"It's looking like my son will be one of the team's starting pitchers, and when not on the mound will start at SS or C."


Be careful with his arm. Depending on how many games he plays he should not be pitching, playing ss and catcher! thats crazy.

quote:

Be careful with his arm. Depending on how many games he plays he should not be pitching, playing ss and catcher! thats crazy.

While I agree that you need to be careful with his arm, at 13, the best pitchers are usually 'do-it-all' players. The key is to make sure that the team has lots of pitching.

13's should not be 'Pitchers only' already. At 13, everyone on my son's travel team pitched. However, the only ones still pitching in college are the pool play pitchers. The 'stud' 13yo pitchers are now position players in college. It would have been a shame if they had been 'PO's' at 13....

How many games per wk? How any innings?.
If he is pitching one day, He could play 1st base or left field the next.
I think pitching should be very limited if he is playing ss everygame. and not at all if he is the everyday catcher.
Thats just me

quote:

How many games per wk? How any innings?.
If he is pitching one day, He could play 1st base or left field the next.
I think pitching should be very limited if he is playing ss everygame. and not at all if he is the everyday catcher.
Thats just me

It's a fairly low key program. Two games a week in the travel league and occasional local tourneys. It's looking like 3-4 pitchers would be "starters" and another 5-6 that can pull some innings as well.

Given those numbers, he would at most pitch once every ten days or so, with a 75 pitch limit. Typical games are on Wed. and Sat., so the kids usually get a couple days rest between games.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob T:

Given those numbers, he would at most pitch once every ten days or so, with a 75 pitch limit.

Nice to see his coach will be working off of a "pitch count" rather than number of innings. All too often i see coach's use the # of innings approach and for their pitchers, it is really bad for their arms. My son's coach has a 7 inning approach (per weekend/tourney), and on his bad days he can far exceed what i believe to be "healthy" for his arm in 7 innings. But then again, i had reconstructive surgery on my rotator cuff at the age of 17, so I may be a little over protective when it comes to young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
"It's looking like my son will be one of the team's starting pitchers, and when not on the mound will start at SS or C."


Be careful with his arm. Depending on how many games he plays he should not be pitching, playing ss and catcher! thats crazy.

Best advice given here, while pitchers at 12,13 should not be pitchers only, ss or catcher should not be included.

Parents need to do their homework and not "trust" in a coach just because he is the coach. If you as a parent feel that your young pitcher is far exceeding an acceptable limit, quit the team and find another team to play on. Use your instincts. Pitchers should be on a pitch count, not an inning count.

I know that us old timers have been reminded by some of you that we should go away, but comments in some of these topics (like this one) shows some need to really understand why we are here to help, even if our players are not in HS anymore.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/usabaseball.htm

No my son doesn't play HS ball anymore, but at 26 he is still in the game, so is njbb's, a lot having to do with just using common sense even before guidelines were formed for young players and pitchers.

I will probably get bashed for the way I posted this, however, my biggest concern is for the young pitchers and players that coaches AND parents abuse (unknowingly as well as knowingly) not how I present my opinions or if someone feels offended.

Here's the deal, the stress placed upon your pitchers arm is incredible, keep in mind his growth plates most likely are not together. A pitcher needs to take a trip to a position (after he pitches if he doesn't leave the game) that requires less throwing so he can get in his at bats, which is more important than becoming a defensive superstar.

JMO.