Was it worth it?

Congrats to Larkin on a huge win. Good Luck in the title game.

BRUTAL!

FBD, when I read articles like this I just shake my head. This is 2007, and the amount of medical information available makes it clear what the long-term effects of abusively high pitch counts are. Once again, it is all about winning. And, as you so correctly stated, the health of the kids is far more important than trying to win one game.

After reading the article, I'd be surprised if this young man didn't pitch in their next game also.

You just have to love the term "rubber armed" --it is usually the prelude to a arm disaster



By the way Rosy--that young man we talked about a few weeks back is the "real deal"--thanx

Child abuse. Pure and simple. No reason for it, and the child is the one who pays. All for the coach to win a summer game, that no one will remember.

quote:

I think coach needs to think about the long-term health of his kids more than trying to win one game.

FastballDad - I agree with you. Moreover, the parents need to be vigilent. There are times when the parents need to step in and tell the coach enough is enough.

Man, that is a lot of pitches... Is he throwing today??

From the article:

"That ***** was able to stay there as long as he did and throw 84 pitches was also amazing. He threw 20 pitches in relief to get Tuesday’s win over Lake Park and threw 80 pitches for another team in a game that night."

Doesn't sound to me like you can put it all on one coach. Additionally, what is the coach from the other team the night before doing throwing this kid in the middle of the HS summer state playoffs?

Big Win? Maybe

A-Its hs summer league, and B even if it was for the regular season "ship" it is a bone head move.

What is a coach thinking when he does that to a kid...and the old "well the kid said he felt good" does not work. There is no reason for this at any level

What is sad to me is that they are counting the pitches for both teams, then pitching the kid anyway. Why bother to count? It just makes you look bad. Sounds like maybe the parents are counting since it is for two teams. By the way, having to cool down, then warm up to pitch two games in a day is bad in itself.

Kind of reminds me of a young pitcher from conant a year ago that threw against your son's team fball dad, wasn't that 9 innings and 160 plus inning in the afternoon? I just don't get it.

You have a young coach who asked this player if he could go and of course he said yes. I am not affiliated with Larkin but I the coach will be starting his 2nd year as the freshman coach there and he will learn. As for child abuse, I think that is a bit harsh - I am positive that the coach would not do anything to intentionally hurt the kid. Coaches you know how it is, your pitcher is in the 7th and he is at 110 pitches and you look at your pitchers available and he is the best option - Things happen - If the kid said that he could go and you are a game away from state - then if that pitcher gives your team the best opportunity to get there, then you have to try. Has anyone ever criticized the coaching staff at Schaumburg?? They are notorious for brining pitchers back earlier than what they should.

I tend to blame the coaches, and then the parents if they know better. If they don't know, they need to look into it.

It is a great quality to want to compete and the kid probably wanted to throw very much. He needs to understand if he has a future he has to take care of himself.

Lineshot, as far as The Conant kid goes I hope they take care of him because he has some real ability. Didn't seem quite as good as a Jr. as he was as a Soph. and I hope that kind of thing (9 IP 160 pitches in one game.) has nothing to do with it.

My pitching coach was there scouting that game, 160 pitches is very conservative, trust me.

3-6-3

Are you kidding me?

"Coaches you know how it is, your pitcher is in the 7th and he is at 110 pitches and you look at your pitchers available and he is the best option - Things happen - If the kid said that he could go and you are a game away from state - then if that pitcher gives your team the best opportunity to get there, then you have to try."

Shame on you. What kid wants to give up the ball, especially knowing that his relief options are not the best, or knows the potential damage he is doing to his arm? Sorry son, but you traded college ball for that high school summer league game.... Remember? You said you felt ok......

JKennedy - What kid would say that? - They would say that they want to finish the game as most coaches including me would say finish it - Kids don't want to come out of the game and that is the hardest for a hs coach to determine when you should bring in relief or let him say - at least in my opinion

I would ask to come out if my pitch count was that high for the exact reason JKennedy put out there.

I do not buy the best option ****---the coach should develop enough arms so he has no problem---and pitching for two teams at the same time is ludicrous--for that I blame the parents

That is part of the reason Schaumburg lost. The coach was saving my son's arm, as he had pitched on Monday and unfortunately by the time he did put him in at the end of the game, it was too late. Rather embarrassing, however, to blow such a big lead in the end.

If the coach knew that the kid threw so many pitches and pitched in another game, he's an idiot.

If the kid didn't tell the coach, the kid is the idiot.

the kid didn't want to let the team down - if he wants to pitch then its the coaches decision

“He’s the kind of kid you want in a close game,” said Larkin coach Matt Esterino. “You want him on the mound.”

Wasn't the score 9-1 when he came in?

Playball2,

That is true and makes it even more ridiculous. From the quotes in the paper he (The Coach) REALLY wanted that win. Baseball is a game that you can't win all the time, no matter what you do.

It's bad enough that the kids was way overpitched, but bringing him in down 8 runs made it bad odds to win even with him pitching. The story of the game wasn't his performance, but the job the hitters did to come back.

3-6-3

I think your missing the point

There is a big difference between can and should. Can a hs kid throw 160 pitches, sure....should he...NO!!!

I do not care what your playing for, if the kid pitched that day for another team, he should not even have been considered an option for that game. The only pitchers who throw two games in one day are usually closers..and its one inning and usually 14-15 pitches per Inning. Major League Pitchers who are in better shape then anyone no matter what age, are considered "heros" for coming back on two or 3 days rest to start (Shilling and Johnson when the dbacks won the series)

I do not want to hear "the kid is young they can do it" The persons age should be the reason why they should not throw more then 100 pitches.

If you need 150 pitches to throw 7 innings then maybe its not your night and you should not be in the game. If your not throwing strikes, or your team is making erros or your 3-2 on the world...the maybe 100 pitches is enough

Is the word child abuse harsh to use in this situation? Yes and no. The player is in the moment so he has no regard for whats going on, its the coaches job to look at the big picture and figure it out.

A kid throwing that many pitches in one day is a very said story and you can see the result of that with the amount of kids have TJ....its getting out of hand and something needs to be done and someone needs to be held responsable

quote:

Originally posted by indians08:
3-6-3

I think your missing the point

A kid throwing that many pitches in one day is a very said story and you can see the result of that with the amount of kids have TJ....its getting out of hand and something needs to be done and someone needs to be held responsable

Very well said Coach. The fact that a coach or parent could feign ignorance about the dangers of excessive pitch counts is just not believable. Unless you've had your head buried in the sand lately, there is so much evidence and information about pitching and elbow injuries (shoulder also) that there can be no excuse. But, because some coaches rank winning a game a higher priority than not abusing a kid's arm there may be only one way to stop this. I hate to throw this out there, but use the legal system. If Dr. Andrews continually writes that he sees NO justifiable reason for a HS pitcher to throw more than 80-90 pitches in a game, was asked to give his opinion on a player who was piling up 160 pitch count efforts, that coach would be paying the piper for a long, long time. IMO, it wouldn't take long for this abuse to stop if a coach, school administration or other were financially liable. BTW, I'm not, nor have ever been an attorney.

It has been said before but I will say it again---MLB arms don't get to 120 pitches in a game and they are in the best of baseball shape---thus why should anyone think a teenager whose body has not yet fully matured go 160 pitches, not to mention pitch for two teams in one day---TOTALLY INSANE


We are admittedly overprotective with our pitchers but I prefer to have a kid mad at us for not pitching enough than his returning home with an arm that cannot comb his hair

3-6-3, no, not all of coaches know how it is. In all of my time coaching, I only had one pitcher ever throw 120 in a game. The reason for that was that the player charting pitches forgot to count one inning. From then on, one of my assistant coaches kept the pitch count. "Rubber arm" is a great phrase to hide behind but has little to do with the realities of arm care.

quote:

Originally posted by indians08:
3-6-3

I think your missing the point

A kid throwing that many pitches in one day is a very said story and you can see the result of that with the amount of kids have TJ....its getting out of hand and something needs to be done and someone needs to be held responsable

Rosy

Thanks.....It just hurts to watch and hear these stories...and TR your right....the coach from the twins got a hard time for keeping Santana in I think he was just over 100 the other night. You can blame the coaches but you also have some parents saying "well if my son pitched we would have won" when the kid pitched the day before.

Our team Doctor is Dr Pete Tonino, he has also done a lot of the same research and has been speaking about this topic for 15 years...and some still do not get it

We had a college player this summer who had to shut it down for the season because or soreness...he threw over 120 pitches in the majority of his starts..Its not right at any level

Bill Jr

What about the kid that threw 254 pitches in a 17 inning game, came in in relief the next day and then threw a no hitter the third day?

254 pitches, 17 innings. Pure stupidity on the part of ALL involved. In relief the next day? Pure studidity on ALL involved. No hitter the third day? Pure studidity on ALL involved; why was he even allowed in uniform? Send the coach to China, he'd probably be executed.
Some just do not get it and most likely never will, including the parents of that kid. That is a pure example of a coach not even remotely concerned about the long term health of that kid and most likely either clueless parents or very egotistical parents. Pitch limits need to be set for a reason, as well as maximum innings per week due to examples like that.

The Sox beat that kid yesterday. Daisuke Matsuzaka did this in high school in 1998. So, is Dice-K a freak of nature or does he have a training regimin that allows him to pitch that much or will he be out of MLB in a short time with arm injuries?

Thats really smart! wait no its not...

NY Times article

This is an article on how some parents/kids have considered Tommy John surgery on a healthy arm that they are intrigued by the possibility of adding some velo.

I'm amazed at this, but I shouldn't be.

UK, thanks for the post. Great article that was both informative and left me shaking my head.

UK

That is precisely why doctors are getting rich and kids are having operations they do not need at ages 12 to 15---Daddy thinks his son will become the "BIONIC PITCHER"

TR,

Unfortunately, if you look long and hard enough you can find a doctor or surgeon who will do whatever you want, for a nice fee. I cannot imagine searching out someone to perfom an operation on a child if it wasn't medically necessary. If Dr.'s Andrews or Yocum or Kremchek say that TJ isn't needed and you find someone to do it anyway, you're the fool.

Two things jump out here,
First,
nearly every college coach & pitching coach told my son not to overdo it early in the year and don't try and carry the team through the playoffs. They claim that those two times are when most serious arm injuries happen.

Second,
Of the people I've talked to about TJ surgery, everyone, not most, everyone, so far has told me that any increase in velocity is due entirely from the work put in to rehab the joint and nothing to do with "tightening up". Bobby Jenks is a great example. Before TJ he had a beer drinkers work ethic, after, he worked his arse off to come back and suddenly the heater. For more evidence, take a look at how he started out this year, topping out at 87-88, now throwing high 90's. Some serious work will take you a long way.