Was this handled the right way?

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

I agree goosegg, however the precedent he is setting is that every player now apparently can tell a coach to "F-off" three times (apparently - if the kids really get 3 strikes). That sets a pretty ugly precedent that will spread and perpetuate throughout the program. Plus it shows the kids who tow the line that their coach is a push over.

I don't agree with that. Will your son now tell the coaches FU because another player did. Of course not. Neither will the others. If they do their parents didn't teach them from right or wrong.

Were you in the room when the coach talked to the player? 

IMO it was not the AC job to tell the player to pack up his things and go home. That was on the HC to decide how to handle that moment, later discussion with the AC.

Last year a player at sons program went a bit over the edge with my son, who was not even one of his pitchers. The issue was handled by the AD. The reason being was that both the HC and assistants were mad, when it comes to kids, you don't make rash decisions because they pushed your buttons.  Kids do that.

I understand your concern, but as I always say, worry about your son and his attitude, grades and performance, not someone else's.

JMO

Not worried about anyone else, I am worried about the program. I worry that even though I have raised my son the best that I can, and I don't think he would do that, being in that kind of atmosphere and seeing that behavior is not something I wish for. I know, crap happens, but it has been happening at a much accelerated rate at the program under the new coach.

I also think this is more interesting to talk about than whether to swing a 32 or 33 inch bat.

JMO

Qhead posted:

Sure doesn't seem like it was handled in the best manner - you'd think at a minimum the player would be suspended and required to apologize to the AC personally and to the team.  What is missing is the content of the conversation between the HC and the player.  It may be that the player is having personal issues at home or the like, and he lashed out?  Doesn't make it right, but things can be hard on young adults and they don't have the maturity to handle.  If it was just the kid being a jerk though - that is a bad precedent!  Hope this is a one time thing that does not adversely affect your team.

Maybe he cant bunt 

Player suspended for 1 week...

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

Makes more sense.

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

F you  <smirk>

hshuler posted:

joes87 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

 

This ...

What a lot of folks not in education don't understand is the external factors that come into play when discipling a player.  Many factors can influence things.  Everything from does the kid have access to food at home to is the kid dealing with a terminal illness to a parent that others don't know about.  These factors can not be discussed with others and at times it may appear that an administrator/coach/teacher, etc.  are taking it easy on the kid.  Lets not forget that these coaches are educators first.  The first question to be answered when discipling a kid, is "whats right for the kid".

 

Okay, I get that some kids have it hard. Very hard! But aren’t all teenagers going through something? And yes, serious illness is not the same as “OMG, I’ve a huge pimple!”  But a kid uncharacteristically, calling out and being late to practices is a looooonnnnggggggg way from “F... you!” IMO. Just not in the same stratosphere.

My life wasn’t easy and neither was it for most of my friends growing up in rural SC but I never witnessed or even heard about someone telling the coach “F.... you!” There’s a whole lotta grey area that you can dance around before you get to that phrase.

I get that we don’t know all the facts but why didn’t he bunt - twice? Because he’s having problem at home just doesn’t seem like the reason. Again, I get it - the kid could be hurting - but are we going to now think that “outside influences” are the only reason that kids do stupid things. Also, what about the other kids on the team who maybe going through tougher circumstances and still listen to and respect authority.

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit today and can’t think of one scenario where this is acceptable. Sorry! 

Again, this is my opinion and I don’t expect to change anyone’s viewpoint.

 

I get it, and for the most part, and if there is not extenuating circumstances the kid should be booted...

But most folks don't have a clue what some kids are going through.  My wife is an administrator in our local school district.  We live is a wealthy area with schools that are considered some of the top in the country.  In addition our town is consistently named as one of the best places to live/raise a family in the US.  By all accounts its a community where you do not expect many family issues.  The reality is there are things happening to kids every day that schools need to deal with.  Consider this scenario.  Its factual based and applied to this baseball situation, but is not related in anyway to the OPs post.  This type problem is more common then most folks think.

Kid lives in a home with no father and a mother that is a drug addict.  Rotating male role models through the house.  No one sticks around long and none of them are upstanding citizens.  In fact many are a one time thing and sometimes there is more then one of them in the house in a day.  Mother uses them for money and drugs.  Men use the mom for the sex.  She is not a prostitute in the normal sense, but is a junkie.  Many of them abuse her and at times her son.  No food in the house as all the money goes toward drugs.  The only real meals the kid gets is breakfast and lunch at school.

Kid is a smart kid and realizes that the way out of his life is through education, he also enjoys playing baseball.  Wakes up the morning of the incident and finds out that the only constant in his life, his grandmother, has been diagnosed with cancer and has 6 weeks to live.  He heads off to school with our really processing the information.  Shows up at baseball practice that afternoon.  Feels like the coach has put some pressure on him and acts out.  While its directed at the coach it really has nothing to do with the  coach, but rather a misplaced reaction to his current situation.

In many cases the administration and HC know what is going on.  The AC may not and certainly the team would not have a clue.  In fact by law the school can not disclose any of this information to anyone.  As a coach what are you going to do?  You have two options.  Kick the kid off the team and possibility put him back into the poverty/drug cycle.  Or you can give the kid a break and keep him on the team mentoring him and hopefully keep the kid pointed in the right direction.

Again, this is not always the situation but I used it to illustrate the decision coaches have to make at times.  Things are not always black and white, and unless you are one of the directly involved parties you never have all the information.

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

 

Maybe you should go back and read the original post where the following was stated:

"HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

I think YOU need to work on your reading comprehension and retention before taking jab's at others the way you do. I think it's rather sad that YOU tried to make the OP look like a jerk. It's easy to understand why so many people feel the way they do about you.

JMO

Chicago643 

Sometime learning there are parameters for conduct, with that lesson being a tough one, is as important as forgiveness. Historically, this has never been a soft program. Previous HC would have escorted this kid to his car and not given him an audience to explain himself. There is no reason for my player to lie or embellish what he witnessed. He was there for everything except the 30 minute meeting. I will keep you up to date on how this plays out going forward, but to allow this kind of behavior when there are other kids of equal talent waiting in line who won't act like this, to me, is not reflecting well on the coach with his players (at least my player) and I can only guess the coaching staff too.

Joes87, I think the mantra for a team sport should be program, team, player. This player spouted off and was insubordinate. Regardless of the underlying cause (if there even is one), accountability is always preached by coaches. Suddenly its not as important because "he may have something else going on in his life." We all have external stressors that impact our daily stress level, not all kids will react that way, with insubordination and disrespect. FWIW, Asst Coach was not at today's practice. Not sure why. Hopefully we didn't lose him. he's one of the good ones.

Yes I read it and I read this too, did you?

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

 

Maybe you should go back and read the original post where the following was stated:

"HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

I think YOU need to work on your reading comprehension and retention before taking jab's at others the way you do. I think it's rather sad that YOU tried to make the OP look like a jerk. It's easy to understand why so many people feel the way they do about you.

JMO

I think you should keep your nastiness out of it. You have been warned on several occassions. 

Don't let it be your last.

I don't care whether people like me or not. Really. I. DON'T.

joes87 posted:

I get it, and for the most part, and if there is not extenuating circumstances the kid should be booted...

But most folks don't have a clue what some kids are going through.  My wife is an administrator in our local school district.  We live is a wealthy area with schools that are considered some of the top in the country.  In addition our town is consistently named as one of the best places to live/raise a family in the US.  By all accounts its a community where you do not expect many family issues.  The reality is there are things happening to kids every day that schools need to deal with.  Consider this scenario.  Its factual based and applied to this baseball situation, but is not related in anyway to the OPs post.  This type problem is more common then most folks think.

Kid lives in a home with no father and a mother that is a drug addict.  Rotating male role models through the house.  No one sticks around long and none of them are upstanding citizens.  In fact many are a one time thing and sometimes there is more then one of them in the house in a day.  Mother uses them for money and drugs.  Men use the mom for the sex.  She is not a prostitute in the normal sense, but is a junkie.  Many of them abuse her and at times her son.  No food in the house as all the money goes toward drugs.  The only real meals the kid gets is breakfast and lunch at school.

Kid is a smart kid and realizes that the way out of his life is through education, he also enjoys playing baseball.  Wakes up the morning of the incident and finds out that the only constant in his life, his grandmother, has been diagnosed with cancer and has 6 weeks to live.  He heads off to school with our really processing the information.  Shows up at baseball practice that afternoon.  Feels like the coach has put some pressure on him and acts out.  While its directed at the coach it really has nothing to do with the  coach, but rather a misplaced reaction to his current situation.

In many cases the administration and HC know what is going on.  The AC may not and certainly the team would not have a clue.  In fact by law the school can not disclose any of this information to anyone.  As a coach what are you going to do?  You have two options.  Kick the kid off the team and possibility put him back into the poverty/drug cycle.  Or you can give the kid a break and keep him on the team mentoring him and hopefully keep the kid pointed in the right direction.

Again, this is not always the situation but I used it to illustrate the decision coaches have to make at times.  Things are not always black and white, and unless you are one of the directly involved parties you never have all the information.

 

I almost posted something similar in my earlier response about the fact that kids, including kids in affluent families, go through all kinds of unimaginable stuff. We are in a small public school, about 1000 kids ranging from very poor rural to very affluent. In the past 18 months, baseball team has dealt with a kid abusing marijuana (his parents have a very tumultuous marriage and mom has moved in and out several times recently), senior got girlfriend pregnant and baby born (both from affluent conservative Christian families), a player's brother arrested for dealing drugs for the second time (kid also doesn't see his dad), and a player whose mom appears to be a raging alcoholic or mentally ill (or both) based on the way she shows up to games. And these are just the issues we are aware of in this small program. 

I know coaches can't fix these problems, but I hope they do what they can to support and mentor the young men. Hopefully coaches will connect the kid to other resources when needed (even if it's just sending them to the school counselor). In that process, hopefully his players become resilient young men who make good choices and become productive adult citizens. Being on a team might be the only good thing in a child's life; if that is taken away they are likely to spiral downward. 

Sounds like the coach in OP's scenario managed the situation very well. He talked to the kid and hopefully addressed any underlying issues, but also held him accountable with a punishment. 

Chicago643 posted:

Goosegg posted:

Fenway, I typically agree with you, but would you have your son kicked off the team based upon this third hand hearsay?

A player reports what he heard at practice to a dad. Player reports what the HC said to the kid. And based upon this, you would take drastic, possibly life altering action? No context, no trusting the judgement of the adults who were actually present and who should be aware of their kids?  I am not excusing any action/non action taken by the coach; I am saying the coach was there and we'll see where this plays out. Knee jerk reactions are seldom the most reasoned actions. (Would your feelings be the same if you learned the kid - right before practice - was told the family had been evicted and was now homeless? Context, context, context.

i have employed hundreds of teens and young adults over the years in my (since retired) business - many in their first or second jobs. Virtually every time I had issues with their performance (late, no show, etc) and thought I knew, just knew -mind you - the full story, there were circumstances I wasn't aware of - the drug overdoses, the parental illnesses, the overwhelming feelings of life closing in. And I was simply an employer, not a coach, not a mentor, not paid to place their lives in context. 

The movie Sandlot said it something like this: baseball is life. Life - especially at the younger end - is all about learning, building a soul, and building on experiences. We all believe that baseball is a great vehicle for this. As we all know, the road is twisty, rocky, and full of bumps. A coaches job (especially pre-college) is moving these teens forward towards real life; I'll go with the coach who was there over third hand hearsay. (For all we know, the kid will be running laps the entire season and will not see the field. Many times it's easier to quit/be fired then be forced to stick it out.)

Rant over.

 

to allow this kind of behavior when there are other kids of equal talent waiting in line who won't act like this, to me, is not reflecting well on the coach with his players (at least my player) and I can only guess the coaching staff too.

I'm not sure why any of this matters to the other kids. My son is going to behave according to his personal ethics, not what the coach wants him to do. He's going to respect the coach based on his relationship with the coach, not on how the coach treats anyone else on the team. He can't control any of that and the only thing he can change is his own behavior--so really, that's all he needs to worry about.

And ultimately, without anyone else having knowledge of any external stressors influencing the behavior, if there is little or no ramification for the public outburst of disrespect toward the coaching staff, then the APPEARANCE to the rest of the players, coaches and families is that there are no boundaries for what constitutes acceptable conduct.

The examples given above of kids with horrible home lives is not lost on me, however we are excusing the behavior. This is leading to an erosion of authority. Sorry, deliberately blowing off two bunt signs followed by an “F-you” is inexcusable. Perhaps after the talk the coach felt a 1-week break to think about his actions is enough, I just don’t happen to agree with that. Sorry, you just blew your chance, next man up please.

I teach HS and previously was an assistant freshman baseball coach. No action is not the right action. HC should not undermine what authority he gives AC. Leniency would call for a suspension for "x" number of games. Teammates were likely shocked and are awaiting what "coach will do." If he is a recruit in the world of social media, he should pray his poor behavior and judgment weren't recorded and set to hit the web.

Chicago643 posted:

 

Sorry, deliberately blowing off two bunt signs followed by an “F-you” is inexcusable. Perhaps after the talk the coach felt a 1-week break to think about his actions is enough, I just don’t happen to agree with that. 

Chicago643,

You came here asking if this incident was handled in the right way, with question mark. You have gotten a lot of different opinions.

I agree, I think that the behavior was inexcusable, no excuses from me.

IMO, I am trying to decide, from your comments in your posts (which I did read despite what anyone thinks),  who you are more upset with, the player or the new coach.

Both

I like TPM

This just hit me today.  Something totally lost in all this, the kid is not on the team yet.  The HS is running an illegal practice under IL HS rules.  2/26/18 is the first day an IL HS can hold practices, thus the team, and cuts, can not be announced until that date at the earliest.  They are holding practices under the guise of a "club team".   Which, if the team has more then 10 members from the coaches HS, then they are in violation.  I have pasted the IL rule below.  Chicago643 claims that all schools in his area are doing it. Im in Chicagoland, not sure what area he is in, but its not happening in our area.  I know a lot of HS coaches and know that many of them are not doing this.  Yes they are holding open gyms which are allowed under the IL rule, but the kids are directing activities, not the coaches.  The coaches around here are very conscience of this rule and don't take the chance.

Ever think maybe this isn’t in Illinois, Columbo?