Heck no......the player should be gone for a couple weeks...and the coach is a fool for allowing that kind of crap on his field. Kinda have the feeling that this is one of those seasons that everyone involved will end up wanting to forget....not off to a good start that's for sure
Joes87 - obviously this didn't take place in Illinois. As long as you have been on this board I would expect you to know that many people have more than one screen name (btw - I'm not one of them) - and often its for this very reason. Trying to sniff out some sort of rules violation in the OP is akin to watching a PGA golf tournament on TV hoping you can observe an infraction in order to call the network and report. Both are a poor use of time and energy.
Earlier posts discussing IL IHSA off season practice rules, in which Chicago643 participated in with no denial that that they were no in IL. If I am wrong, then I offer my apologizes.
adbono posted:Trying to sniff out some sort of rules violation in the OP is akin to watching a PGA golf tournament on TV hoping you can observe an infraction in order to call the network and report. Both are a poor use of time and energy.
Fortunately due to the folks at the PGA finally coming to their senses....one of those two things is no longer an option 
I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway. Which you didn't know then - but now you do.
adbono posted:I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway. Which you didn't know then - but now you do.
Respectfully, I think it does apply. A great part of this conversation has been that if the coach doesn't discipline the kid "appropriately", then the rest of the team will lose respect for him. I've already said my feeling--that the kids should respect the coach's position and his behavior toward them individually and not toward anyone else.
However, if the coach was already disobeying a state rule on when practices can take place, doesn't that say something about his integrity and doesn't that impact people's respect or lack thereof for the coach?
Or shouldn't it?
I realize that if the team is not in Illinois, which it apparently isn't, that doesn't apply, but no one knew that before. It seems like a reasonable question.
Thr intent of my original post had nothing to do with where the team was located. Moreso, team dynamics as it relates to behavior/consequences. Someone took it too into the weeds in an effort to say the program is cheating. It isn’t.
Iowamom23 posted:adbono posted:I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway. Which you didn't know then - but now you do.
Respectfully, I think it does apply. A great part of this conversation has been that if the coach doesn't discipline the kid "appropriately", then the rest of the team will lose respect for him. I've already said my feeling--that the kids should respect the coach's position and his behavior toward them individually and not toward anyone else.
However, if the coach was already disobeying a state rule on when practices can take place, doesn't that say something about his integrity and doesn't that impact people's respect or lack thereof for the coach?
Or shouldn't it?
I realize that if the team is not in Illinois, which it apparently isn't, that doesn't apply, but no one knew that before. It seems like a reasonable question.
The OP was about a specific situation that (we now know) occurred in a state where official practices have already started. The Q in the OP was "did the coach handle this properly?" The answer is he did not. The kid should have immediately been dismissed from practice - just as the AC attempted to do. Then announce an immediate suspension and then determine all the underlying facts. When all of that is understood it can then be fairly determined how long the suspension should be and whether or not the kid should be reinstated at all. The HC did none of these things. It appears that he is a young, inexperienced first year HC that has taken over a storied program and is following in the footsteps of a legendary coach. And he just failed his first test - miserably. Not only did he essentially allow the most blatant disrespect you can imagine, he also usurped his AC's authority in front of the whole team. This has been pointed out by other people in prior posts. Because these are huge mistakes - the kind the team may not be able to recover from. I think the concern of Chicago 643 is that their program appears headed for a dumpster fire. And it sounds to me like those are valid concerns. Now, as to your comment about rule following......a HS HC isn't going to win or lose the respect of his players or parents based on how well he follows (sometimes silly) rules to the letter of the law. I'm not condoning blatant disregard - I'm just saying that it isn't high on the criteria list. A HS HC earns the respect of his peers, players & parents by doing these things ; knowing & teaching the game, treating his players with respect, being fair & impartial, running good practices, making his players better, helping his players grow up, winning games, building a respected program, helping his players get recruited, and on and on. Nobody gives a rats ass if in the course of doing all those things I listed (and more) practices get extended a few minutes too long or if the HC has his hands all over the fall program, etc.
So how many players are in this program? So potentially you could have 30 straight days of a player saying FU and disrupting a practice? Thirty straight days of holding one on one meetings? And then everyone has one strike.
Blantant disrespect like this can never be tolerated. It must be dealt with immediately and the consequences must be clear and immediate. Your not helping the kid by not showing him that certain actions will bring definite consequences. In other words you must love him enough to hurt him.
If this program is really legit, the head coach has to contact the AD regarding the incident and discuss the solution.
As an assistant college coach my son has no authority to make any decision regarding dismissing a student without discussing it with the HC, his boss. The HC, being new to the program, should go to AD, his boss to report the incident. IMO the assistant was wrong in dealing with the situation without discussing it with the HC. HC and AC need to get on the same page, obviously.
I am old school but old school isn't in anymore. There is a different philosophy out these days on how to deal with athletes.
I don't agree that because one player messed up everyone else will. I certainly raised my kids to know right from wrong, and to be honest, if son ever did anything like that he would be afraid to come home. Sitting out a week would be nothing to the punishment handed down by mom and dad.
If the OP is so concerned with the program (before one game has ever been played), go have a sit down with the new coach, volunteer to help. Probably would do more good than complaining on a HS message board.
You may not have another incident like this. But one things for sure you have set a precedent. I must have not read the op well. I assumed this was said to the HC. So the assistant should have immediately informed the HC. HC informs the AD. Player is dismissed.
What happens if he is just given strike one? Do the other players also get a strike one? If not how do you justify that? Just wondering.
If this crap is happening before game #1 of the season, it’s a concern. I don’t know if these kids, and the seniors are a cocky group, are just feeling their oats and figure they can get away with stuff or testing boundaries, but that is one that an HC certainly should not allow to be crossed. I do not know if the AC dismissing the kid from practice should be viewed as a dismissal from the team - clearly the kid needed to get some distance from the ballfield (and quickly) before he cooked his goose any more. I think Coach May and Adbono summed up my feelings on this. Simply put, this would NEVER have happened last year with the previous coaching staff. Not because the coach is a hard ass, but because every player in that program respected them and knew that they all had roles to play (coaches and players). This year, it appears that chaos is ensuing. There are some pretty big egos on this team, my belief is it will get uglier before it gets better.
I could envision a scenario where new HC told kid he was a PO. Kid gets up to bat in this club scrimmage and refused to take the bunt sign because he wanted to show them he could hit. Coach gets ticked because kid is ignoring signs. Kid gets ticked because he thought he'd be in the line up this year. Tempers are flaring and kid, who is a kid and does not have the self discipline of an adult, flies off the handle in a tantrum and screams the words. HC knows why kid flew off the handle, talks to him about his future and how he needs to maintain control, and kid is suspended for a week, but must watch practice.
As long as kid gets a hold of himself for future baseball events, treats the staff with respect, and embraces the role the coaches see him in I think it will work out fine and that it was handled well.
OK - now we are 4 days out and we have a few bits of new information. Perhaps we can continue to get daily updates. I think would should now put the kid under a microscope and try and determine if he is worthy of a second chance or whether he is really just some punk kid. I'm sure with a few tidbits of info we can all make that call with relative precision.
I did see where the OP came back and indicated that the AC might have simply sent the kid packing without dismissing - which IMO is certainly something the AC should have the right to do. It seems like one of the sticking points was when the HC spoke at end of practice about the kid getting to come back. What if the coach had been just a bit wiser and said the kid's exact status was to be determined - would that have been sufficient, especially when followed up with the one week suspension? I really don't think this one instance is going to wreak havoc with the team's discipline, but I certainly get the feeling that there are all sorts of little things going on that the OP does not feel are going in the right direction. In a well run program, this one scenario should be nothing more than a blip. Coming to the immediate conclusion that the HC is spineless (I think someone specifically cited that term) and that the kid is disposable (sorry Coach May, but the "love him enough to hurt him" sometimes results in only hurt) is not something I could ever really get to sitting at this screen. For all I know, the HC is struggling with this situation and HE IS ACTUALLY DIRECTLY INVOLVED!
Everybody agrees that it is not alright to say F YOU to an authority figure no matter if it is a team, school, work, family...etc. The part that really no one of us know about and all are reading into are the reasons for and response to what happened. There were plenty of situations laid out that could have been effecting the kids mentality at the moment, though most were pretty low probability. It sounds like the kid was given some real discipline for mouthing off. Could it have been legitimately harder, probably. We all know most cases in the real world this is a sliding scale based on how valuable the kid is to the team. Is the best starting pitcher on the team going to be given more leash than the end of the bench guy if he pushes the envelope, absolutely. We talk a lot about baseball teaching life lessons good or bad this is a life lesson on how team/workplaces are.
Venting is fine but are there any actually new facts going to be brought up? Is there an epidemic of F YOUs going around the team? Probably not, most kids I have come across that are HS athletes tend to also be very good kids. Does this mean the coach has no control over his team and undercuts the assistants? Probably not, sounds like they might not have done what you would have but did ok.
There is actually more information in this thread on what type of real team environment it is IF they are in Illinois and are playing loose with the letter of the IHSA rules for workouts.
Personally, I don't think ANYONE has all the facts, because not one of us was in the conversation between the coach and the player, or between the HC and AC.
If I am the HC, I would coach my team as I see fit. I would hand out punishment as I see fit. Each situation is not the same. I can't condemn the coach for giving the kid another chance, because ultimately, the coach may see that the kid was remorseful, the act was out of character, and that the kid is salvageable. My guess is that the team is fine, but it's the parents seeing a problem that may not exist. Some reasons for that:
- Like the old HC better than the new HC.
- My kid won't get to play as much.
- Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
- Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.
As a HC, I am going to do my utmost to do the right thing for my kids, and they are who I owe my allegiances to. The parents are a concern, but I am not going to run my program based on their thoughts/wants.
- Like the old HC better than the new HC.
- My kid won't get to play as much.
- Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
- Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.
Counterpoint:
- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial
- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless
- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not
- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.
Chicago643 posted:
- Like the old HC better than the new HC.
- My kid won't get to play as much.
- Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
- Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.
Counterpoint:
- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial
- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless
- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not
- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.
Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?
As to the original question posted, the consensus answer is "it depends". Looking into that answer a little closer reveals that it depends on "any number of issues and circumstances of which none of us will ever be fully privy to".
Re-phrasing the question a bit does provide some clarity. When asked "should a player be able to address a coach with the salutation "F-you" with impunity", the answer is a resounding no. Doing so will only serve as proof of the condition known as "spinelessness".
CaCO3Girl posted:Chicago643 posted:
- Like the old HC better than the new HC.
- My kid won't get to play as much.
- Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
- Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.
Counterpoint:
- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial
- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless
- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not
- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.
Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?
Only a couple with good sticks