Weekend Observations

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
#1 Brought to mind the Perfect Game that wasn't----had a similar play at first base---call went against the defensive team and coach came out of dugout asking the first base ump to get help from home plate ump---if this happened in the nonperfect game the kid would have had a perfect game instead of one hitter

PU is not going to give help in that situation. He's got an inferior position and his own responsibilities.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
#2--First and third and pitcher uses the step to third and turn to first base---fakes the throw to thrid BUT he DOES NOT have the ball in his throwing hand--I questioned the umpire and his answer was you can only balk to first--DUH !!!!!!!!!!!

He was wrong in that statement, if that is what he said, but this still isn't a balk.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
#1 Brought to mind the Perfect Game that wasn't----had a similar play at first base---call went against the defensive team and coach came out of dugout asking the first base ump to get help from home plate ump---if this happened in the nonperfect game the kid would have had a perfect game instead of one hitter

How many runners and where? Where was the ball hit?
Did PU provide help?

Depending on the situation and what PU's obligations were at the time, this is one of the plays in which umpires may go for help.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
#2--First and third and pitcher uses the step to third and turn to first base---fakes the throw to thrid BUT he DOES NOT have the ball in his throwing hand--I questioned the umpire and his answer was you can only balk to first--DUH !!!!!!!!!!!

Could be umpire was tryng to convey that the only base to which a feint from the rubber is a balk is first and expressed himself poorly. HTBT.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

#2--First and third and pitcher uses the step to third and turn to first base---fakes the throw to thrid BUT he DOES NOT have the ball in his throwing hand--I questioned the umpire and his answer was you can only balk to first

I thought you just sat in the seats and let your coaches run the team (like you did in the game I had with your team). If that was the case, the umpire's mistake was responding to you at all.

DASH

I was in the dugout this weekend as bench coach---my discussions with the umpire where after the game when the base ump came looking for me, which he did in fronyt of all of those in attendance--in fact his partner told him to shut up--he was in my face because he blew a call at second and when questioned he answered "I guess"----in my book going after a coach after the game is a total NO NO for an umpire

Note he confronted me and not vice versa

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
in my book going after a coach after the game is a total NO NO for an umpire

It is for everyone involved. Once the game is over, the game is over. The umpires walk off the field and confront no one. And, should be done by everyone else. Parents/fans/coaches/players should walk away too.

However, this is not the case. Some don't know how to keep their mouth shut and let it end.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
DASH

I was in the dugout this weekend as bench coach---my discussions with the umpire where after the game when the base ump came looking for me, which he did in fronyt of all of those in attendance--in fact his partner told him to shut up--he was in my face because he blew a call at second and when questioned he answered "I guess"----in my book going after a coach after the game is a total NO NO for an umpire

Note he confronted me and not vice versa

So, just walked up to a bench coach who had said nothing to him snd initiated a conversation in which he was being questioned about a call questioned. What an idiot.

In regards after game confrontations. This past year in HS ball an assistant ccoach ran out onto the field after the final out of the final game of the year as we were leaveing the field and got into my partners face, cursing and screaming. He was ejected and will miss the first game next season.

BTW, why was this important to you:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
BUT he DOES NOT have the ball in his throwing hand--

Jimmy

A balk is a pitchers action meant to deceive----faking a throw with no ball in the hand is a deception motion in my mind---but then in every state we play the umpires read the rules differently

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

A balk is a pitchers action meant to deceive----faking a throw with no ball in the hand is a deception motion in my mind---but then in every state we play the umpires read the rules differently

There is legal decepton and illegal deception. Balk violations are listed in Rule 8, primarily 8.05.

Feints in general and the 3-1 move specifically are meant to deceive. In no state is an empty handed feint to third illegal, regardless of umpire error.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

A balk is a pitchers action meant to deceive----faking a throw with no ball in the hand is a deception motion in my mind---but then in every state we play the umpires read the rules differently

Isn't a good pickoff meant to deceive a runner? Especially a good LHP to 1B move.

Not a balk on my field. Empty handed feints to third are legal. No rule, absolutely no rule, says the ball has to be in F1's hand when he does a feint.

When you look and find that rule, please post it so all of us can see it and make sure we interpret uniformly. Though, it sounds like it is being done.

I do accept the "Thats just the way it is" answer

The fact is these umpires had no idea as to yes or no

A good pickoff move is legal--and not deception--BUT many umpires do not what is or is not a legal move to first, especially by a LHP

It is truly amazing how you guys cover each others tail

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

It is truly amazing how you guys cover each others tail

It's just the opposite TR. No one is more critical of an umpire's mistake than other umpires. In fact, most of our true mistakes go unnoticed by coaches because they don't have a clue as to proper mechanics or many of the rules.

On the other hand, I will be the first to support an umpire who is being criticized unfairly, and that happens quite often.

With respect to #2 of your post - what do you think should have been called (if anything) and why?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

A good pickoff move is legal--and not deception--BUT many umpires do not what is or is not a legal move to first, especially by a LHP

It is truly amazing how you guys cover each others tail

Completely wrong. Just b/c they don't call it your way does not make the umpire wrong. You have proven that with this balk topic. The umpire was correct to not call it a balk for doing an empty handed feint to 3B. And, it is not a "Just the way it is" answer. It is a "supported by the rules" answer.

You accept those kind of answers b/c you cannot prove yourself to be right.

None of us are covering anybody's tail. We are just pointing out that you are wrong.

The challenge still stands. Point out the exact rule that says a pitcher CANNOT do an empty handed feint to 3B or 2B. Any one of the 3 major rule sets.

Mr Umpire

The typical "blue" answer---you are wrong

His answer was he wasn't sure

I am perhaps wrong in your eyes but that is again typical umpire thinking--you guys even if wrong will never admit it

There is no challenge here except on your part--I did not argue the interpretation--I simply questioned it

I have found that you can never prove an umpire wrong because in their minds they never are wrong

I am, in this thread, getting the interpretation I requested and it is exactly what I expected

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

I am perhaps wrong in your eyes but that is again typical umpire thinking

Don't be so modest. You're not just wrong in our eyes, you're wrong, demonstrably wrong, in the eyes of the Official Rules of Baseball, Rule 8.05.

quote:

you guys even if wrong will never admit it

Pot, meet Kettle.

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I have found that you can never prove an umpire wrong because in their minds they never are wrong

When they debate you, they probably aren't. I haven't seen you come in on the correct side on any of your attacks or rants lately.

First there have been no attacks or rants

All I know is that when I ask an umpire on a field for a clarification I get a "I am not sure"---had one this weekend on a tag play at second tell me the tag was on the helmet--it wasn't--I asked is that why the helmet came off--his answer was typical "I guess"

The umpires problem today is it is what I call the "BLUE SHOW"--one even had a loss of memory about a play in our game earlier in the day whichj he umpired--answer to a question--"I don't remember"

Heck I am 68 and can still replay a game practically play by play in my mind-a 35 year old umpire cannot remember and you wonder how you guys get a reputation

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
First there have been no attacks or rants

Not only are you hypocritical, you lie, too.

quote:

All I know is that when I ask an umpire on a field for a clarification I get a "I am not sure"---had one this weekend on a tag play at second tell me the tag was on the helmet--it wasn't--I asked is that why the helmet came off--his answer was typical "I guess"

What is wrong with this? He had a better position, saw what he saw, and the actions were consistent with what he saw.

quote:

The umpires problem today is it is what I call the "BLUE SHOW"--one even had a loss of memory about a play in our game earlier in the day whichj he umpired--answer to a question--"I don't remember"

Heck I am 68 and can still replay a game practically play by play in my mind-a 35 year old umpire cannot remember and you wonder how you guys get a reputation

I'm 30 years old, and I can't remember the previous pitch most of the time. Unless there's a reason something sticks in my mind, I'm not going to remember. My focus is on the next play, which is exactly where it should be.

MATT13

I take umbrage with your calling me a liar---

How do you know he was in a better position? Where you there?---Typical umpire rhetoric

He had the fielder between he and the runner--from my seat in the dugout I saw all three--ump,fielder,runner in front of me with no interference

Perhaps your focus problem is why you are an umpire. I do not know what you do for a living but your boss might not like to see that statement about your focus

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
MATT13

I take umbrage with your calling me a liar---

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

quote:

How do you know he was in a better position? Where you there?---Typical umpire rhetoric

He had the fielder between he and the runner--from my seat in the dugout I saw all three--ump,fielder,runner in front of me with no interference

I love it when self-admission proves I'm right. "Seat in the dugout..." There's a reason we don't umpire from the dugout.

quote:

Perhaps your focus problem is why you are an umpire. I do not know what you do for a living but your boss might not like to see that statement about your focus

My focus is fine. I have a job far more important than what can be emphasized here. If I mess up, people die.

Umpiring does not require recollection. In fact, focusing on the past causes umpire error.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
matt

All I can say once again is typical umpire rhetoric---Blue is a color that can never be wrong---and the game is now your show--just watch the MLB umps and CWS umps--it is definitely SHOWTIME

Repeating a lie does not make it the truth, despite the old saw.

There was a time I used to second guess myself when a coach would come out and argue a call. Then I realized that people see what they want to see. I can't tell you how many times I had a perfect view of a play and some coach will argue that what I saw was not what he saw so therefore I blew the call.

We are better trained than you to see plays, we are almost always in a better position to see the play than you are, and we don't have the bias that you have.

TR, I guarantee you that you were wrong and the umpire was right a great percentage of the time.

Yes we do miss one now and then. Sometimes the limitations of the two umpire system come into play and sometimes we are blocked and don't see the play as well as we wish we could and yes, sometimes we just plain blow a call. We are Human. But we are far better than you are to determine exactly what happened on any given play.

So you need to back off.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
MATT13

I take umbrage with your calling me a liar---

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

quote:

How do you know he was in a better position? Where you there?---Typical umpire rhetoric

He had the fielder between he and the runner--from my seat in the dugout I saw all three--ump,fielder,runner in front of me with no interference

I love it when self-admission proves I'm right. "Seat in the dugout..." There's a reason we don't umpire from the dugout.

quote:

Perhaps your focus problem is why you are an umpire. I do not know what you do for a living but your boss might not like to see that statement about your focus

My focus is fine. I have a job far more important than what can be emphasized here. If I mess up, people die.

Umpiring does not require recollection. In fact, focusing on the past causes umpire error.

thats enough Matt.....PM me and lets discuss.....we need to keep this on a professional basis....