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We lift weights in school for our off season before we get to throw. When it is time to throw i feel a loss of control and velocity. Plus i feel fatigued and don't throw like as long. In the summer i was up to 87-89 at most times now im 84-86. Is the lifting before i throw hurting me?
hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard
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I am sure that there are others who can best answer your question, if it is hurting you.
There should be no set of rules for every person, some things work for some, while it doesn't work for others.
One thing I do have come to understand, you should never work the same parts of the body everyday, more or less you should have a specific workout designed for you as a pitcher vs. position player. Most pitchers do not lift over a certain amount of weight. Some pitchers don't do weights often for upper body, it's all done through specific excercises for upper body and core and tossing to strengthen the arm. More emphasis on lower body.

The problem is that most HS coaches do not know specifically the right things to do for pitchers, and sometimes work together just as a group.
college and pro pitchers lift all season long.
we always throw before we lift. during jan/feb we lift 4 days a week and throw everyday(longtoss or bullpens.) in season we lift 2 days a week.
we also have a couple of weight pograms we use when kids arms are sore. energy/flush programs. the kids swear by these. say they work removing the soreness.
TPM is right about there being a difference between a work-out for a pitcher and position player. Most high school head coaches are not good pitching coaches so, like he said, they have the team work out as a group as if it were a football team.

As far long tossing after you work-out, if you are just sore it will be fine. It is actually a good way to get the lactic acid out of your body. If you feel pain then something is wrong. You are probably working out wrong and it is affecting your throwing. As raider said, college and pro players work-out all the time before they throw.
Crazy8,
quote:
Is the lifting before i throw hurting me?

No! You are experiencing “training regression” where your muscles are continually gaining a positive physiological stress response and is continually getting stronger, this is how it works! This is why pitchers should not be performing in competitions trying to impress some one because they loose this all important training tenet “training regression” timeline (it takes about 3-5 weeks to come out of regression) before Spring.
You should within 10 minutes of your overload (heavy resistance) training perform your underload (light resistance) training through ballistic throwing of all your pitches every day, unless your throwing mechanic is injurious of course.
quote:
“We lift weights in school for our off season before we get to throw”

The question should be are you overload training “Sport specifically” or doing general training elements?
. You should now be (biologically 16 and up) training daily year round using all the elements. During time for competition you run a maintenance program that uses all the elements but at lighter levels. If you attain progressive regression from training at this time (sept 10 thru Jan 10) you are doing it right. If you are in the established loop of competition you cannot attain a consistant progressive training timeline and are in a constant train, detrain, train, detrain road to mediocrity.
quote:
“When it is time to throw i feel a loss of control and velocity”

This is great news you are in regression!! When you come out of regression from a progressive weight training period and then maintain correctly you will be much stronger and your performance now will be greatly increased. Get on the bump every day after weights and work on your different pitches and this will also act as your underload portion of your work out. Perform mound bullpens, maximal toss or long toss to cover your underload requirement for the day.
quote:
“Plus i feel fatigued and don't throw like as long”

You must work very hard! Keep it up until after New years then start throwing to a catcher. Or this may be because your throwing motion is off the traditional variety and what you perceive as fatigue is actually injurious accumulative affect. Do you crow-hop (early transition-good) correctly by karaoke stepping to the front or are you long tossing in the traditional pitching (late transition-bad) by stepping behind. Either way ignore this physiological response you should still get through this portion of training daily.
quote:
“In the summer i was up to 87-89 at most times now im 84-86.”

This is a good sign; you will gain and pass your previous speeds when you come out of regression, I’m guessing you will touch 92 at least by mid Spring. The question will then be did I work on my axis presentation enough in the development period to learn movement when I was worrying about my velocity?
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
One thing I do have come to understand, you should never work the same parts of the body everyday, more or less you should have a specific workout designed for you as a pitcher vs. position player. Most pitchers do not lift over a certain amount of weight. Some pitchers don't do weights often for upper body, it's all done through specific excercises for upper body and core and tossing to strengthen the arm. More emphasis on lower body.


TPM, that is excellent advise IMHO. After a full season, with just a light duty (maintenance) schedule of lifting, it is a good idea for a kid to take a break from the lifting for about six weeks. Focus on eating well and staying in good cardio shape. Continue to long-toss.

Come late Fall, begin a solid weight program.. but pitchers.. DON'T do lat pull downs or bench presses so as to avoid shoulder impingement. Like TPM says, focus on legs and core, and when doing the upper body focus on lower weight and higher reps.

The Winter, you should continue the weights and add in a brutal plyometric program (older players), tapering off as you approach Spring. Throwing at this point should be long-tossing and bullpens.

In the Spring, do whatever your coach tells you.
Bum,
That school of thought is for anyone who works out on a continual bases, never should work out the same muscles day after day, right?

Intersting thing to share, my son has always had what is known as a loose arm. He is just finding out that the excercises and conditioning he has been doing, has tightened the capsule, losing range of motion, and now has to work on specific conditioning to loosen the capsule.

Be aware that problems that exist could be person specific, it's always good to get the advice of a trained professional for your workout, if one has issues or seek an opinion from a sports doc.
BK35
quote:
“Do you have a source of the information or somewhere to read further?”

Walk into any University bookstore that emphasizes athletics and pick up books dealing with exercise physiology, motor skill acquisition, anatomy, kinesiology, diet and energy plus many more and you will see that the direction of baseball training timelines for youth in particular has been evolved by monetary considerations, scouting opportunities and well meaning but incorrectly understanding of physiology coaches and establishment. Your son can’t be the best he can become with this current training understanding. If he is performing “general” training elements and not “sport specific”
he is susceptible to mediocrity in performance to the exercise physiology tenet the 20% principle.

Twenty Percent Principle
Researchers found that increased muscle fiber cross-sectional diameter accounted for only twenty percent of those muscles increased weight lifting abilities. Consequently, the remaining eighty percent of the increased training abilities result from central nervous system adaptations. Training stimulates hormonal secretions that increase muscle growth, increase muscle contractility and decrease Golgi Tendon Organ dampening of trained reflexes. Training decreases cerebellum’s dampening effect on ballistic movements. Training increases myolinated motor nerve conduction velocities. These central nervous system adaptations and engram formations explain eighty percent of training benefits. Therefore, eighty percent of training must emphasize central nervous systems. The Twenty Percent Principle completes the circle back to the Training Specificity Principle. Training programs must specifically enhance specific motor skills at specific competitive intensities.

Training regression
Whenever athletes of any age practice skills at increasing intensities, the involved bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles have to make physiological adjustments. During this physiological adjustment period, also called the regression period, the bones, ligament, tendons and muscles are not able to perform at their previous levels, such that athletes complain that they cannot perform the activity at earlier intensities.
However, when athletes continue to train through these regression period, the physiological adjustments will enable them to perform at greater and greater intensities.
When baseball pitchers say that they have 'tired or dead arm,' they mean that when they try to throw as hard as they can, the baseball does not go as fast as they thought it would.
'Tired or dead arm' is the normal response of baseball pitchers trying to achieve higher levels of fitness. When training overload stimulates a physiological response, the body mobilizes its resources to meet this training overload. That is, the body builds new bone, ligament, tendon and muscle tissue.
To Exercise Physiologists, this means that the body has entered regression. During regression, no matter how intensely they try; they are not able to get the results that they want. For deep training regressions, it takes about five weeks from the last time they increased the stress that they placed on their body to meet a training overload for these tissues to mature and respond. To varying degrees, all baseball pitchers, even those who maintained over the off-season will have 'tired or dead arms.' The length of time to come out of 'tired or dead arms' depends on the depth of the training regression.

When athletes apply stress greater than muscles are able to withstand, these muscles enter a state of regression during which they mobilize the recourses that they need to make the physiological adjustment required to meet this training overload. During regression, athletes should not add the stress of competition.
When baseball pitchers throw with greater intensity than usual, they stimulate a physiological response in the involved tissues. In Exercise Physiology, we call this process, 'Regression.' Regression is when the body is mobilizing its resources to meet the training overload. During regression, muscle fibers cannot contract as quickly. However, when athletes train through the regression, the involved muscle fibers will contract even more quickly.

During regression, no matter how intensely they try; they are not able to get the results that they want. For deep training regressions, it takes about five weeks from the last time they increased the stress that they placed on their body to meet a training overload for these tissues to mature and respond. Athletes cannot train and compete at the same time. and, they need three weeks to start to come out of the hard training regression. With lesser time and effort training the regression period shortens

The only way to come out of training regression is to train through it. Eventually, you will gain the fitness that will enable you to compete at the level of your new intensity.

quote:
“My son is 14 and has been working out for about 6 weeks and has made similar comments.”


Is your son biologically 14 also? Or is he chronologically 14 and biologically more or less than this, because it makes a huge difference at this age both ways when dealing with increases in duration and intensities!!
I thought the growth plate damage idea was pretty much old news by now. You guys have probably been through this discussion on this board before but I have a couple of references on the youth strength training subject.

Strength Training for Children and Adolescents
What Can Physicians Recommend?
Holly J. Benjamin, MD; Kimberly M. Glow, MD, MPH
THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 31 - NO. 9 - SEPTEMBER 2003
Strength training in prepubertal children can be a safe and effective way to improve muscle strength and joint flexibility while potentially decreasing the rate of sports-related injury. A properly designed and supervised program can help improve children's overall health and sense of psychosocial well-being. Current published literature demonstrates that the benefits of strength training far outweigh the potential risks. When a child or adolescent is involved in strength training, the emphasis must be on technique rather than the amount of weight lifted, and qualified supervision is essential to reduce the risk of injury.
ACSM’s
Certified
News
OCTOBER/NOVEMBER/DECEMBER 2005 VOLUME 15; ISSUE 4
MYTH: STRENGTH TRAINING WILL STUNT
THE GROWTH OF CHILDREN.
Fact: Scientific findings indicate no evidence
of a decrease in stature in children who
regularly perform strength exercise in a controlled
environment. In all likelihood, regular
participation in strength training activities will
have a favorable influence on growth at any
stage of development but will not affect the
genotypic maximum.

MYTH: CHILDREN WILL EXPERIENCE BONE
GROWTH PLATE DAMAGE AS A RESULT OF
STRENGTH TRAINING.
Fact: A growth plate fracture has not been
reported in any prospective study that was
competently supervised and appropriately
designed. Interestingly, some clinicians believe
that the risk of a growth plate fracture in a
prepubescent child is actually less than in an
older child because the growth plates of
younger children actually may be stronger
and more resistant to shearing-type forces.

I also have a couple of books on the subject which basicly say go for it, within reason of course. We keep sets to reps of 10 or more and concentrate on the basic exercises that are ok for overhead throwing athletes.:

Strength and Power for Young Athletes (Paperback)
~ Avery Faigenbaum (Author), Wayne Westcott (Author)

Total Training for Young Champions (Paperback)
~ Tudor Bompa (Author)

Other opinions/information are welcome of course.
Well, as a health club owner I would NEVER recommend pre-pubescent kids pumping weights. Baseball is a sport of agility. These kids are not expected to power the ball out of the yard at a young age. Better to focus on speed, agility, and a strong core.

My own son started young, too, about age 13, but I was there each and every time. The weights were extremely light and followed proper methodology and focused on general, not specific strength. Keep in mind, kids just LOVE to jump on machines, not staying balanced or utilizing negative resistance, just torquing away proving to their buddy they can pump ever more weights than them. I would NEVER put my kids health into the hands of any of these so-called professionals.

Perhaps your sources are just fine but there were medical doctors who endorsed cigarette smoking at one time. Let mother nature take her course.. the strength will come naturally.
Bands are great for pitchers seeking to stabilize the shoulder for deceleration during pitching. An arm can only speed up as much as it can stop. So bands, coupled with a good long toss program, solid plyometric program, core program and excellent pitching instruction definitely should result in an increase in velocity. However, bands are still a form of resistance, and I don't see it necessary for pre-pubescent youth to use them.. they have the potential to be harmful, but definitely, they're safer than weights.
Twice a week, he works out in the High School gym with the other baseball players. He usually does dumbell presses, not overhead, pulldowns and rows to help strengthen the decelerators, and squats and/or deadlifts and/or kettle bell swings for legs. Always sets of 10 at least, no maxxing out. Interestingly, alot of the kids are still doing the bodybuilding routine of curls and tricep extensions.

He also does speed/agility twice a week and we throw everyday.

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