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Well XFactor i agree that there is no proof that they work but I know that i used them and my velocity increased and my distance that i can throw it also increased alot within a couple of months. So i wouldnt neccesarily say not to use them and not to waste time. You should use is and see if you like it and if it is not helping then dont use them but if it works then continue.
Has Tom House tried to submit them in any scholarly magazines?
I'm aware of the over/under weighted baseball studies, and they all fail to fulfill basic criteria for scientific consideration.

If there's no scientific support, you're just wasting your time practicing something that isn't going to help throw a 5 oz baseball to a specific point.

The Science and Art of Baseball Pitching, topic 3.9
"Castagno, Richards, and Axe (1995) conducted a biomechanical analysis of three fastball trials with and without a 7 oz weight on the back of the throwing hand in nine college pitchers. The overload condition changed movement factors producing less elbow extension throughout the entire pitch, greater elbow extension velocity during the acceleration phase, greater external rotation of the throwing arm at maximum external rotation, and a slightly greater forward trunk lean. The timing of all sequential arm movements starting from the cocking phase through follow-through remained unaffected. The authors considered these changes insufficient to warrant concern about repeated use of such a training device causing injury. The study did not attempt to evaluate these changes on pitching velocity with a regulation ball. Since the majority of movement changes reduced the mechanical advantage of the body's levers, it is reasonable to assume that if the new pattern were used with a regulation ball, velocity would decrease [think of the studies using weighted bats that DECREASE bat speed]. This study demonstrated that a baseball resistance weighing 12 oz or more is not a desirable training device because it produced an altered skilled movement pattern. It is very possible, that balls heavier than but closer to a 5 oz ball, also produce movement pattern disruption or alterations. However, using balls greater than 12 oz are advocated in baseball publications (Pavalovich)."

3.10
"Changes [now this is important] in a skilled tast produce a "new" task. For training content, the greater the number of departures from the competitive skill, the less valuable is the training. This is but one more reason why throwing weighted balls, strength training, and long-toss do not work for pitching, despite what "believers" proselytize."

3.11

"The theory underlying baseball weight modifications can be questioned seriously. It is based on the physiology of muscle, which largely is inappropriate for a class of movement of which pitching is an example. The value of force being generated by the elastic properties of connective tissues and isometrically contracted muscles is not mentioned, although a research study (Jobe et al.) [which shows that the arm is NOT the source of velocity] suggests that elastic energy is the only source of propulsive force with the arm after the cocked position has been attained. The muscle physiology focus could lead to irrelevant, erroneous, and even destructive practice experiences for most individuals."


Due to the Principle of Specificity of neuromuscular patterns, the body recognizes the 4 oz, 6 oz, 7 oz, etc... ball as a different skill from 5 oz. You could be developing bad mechanics. Furthermore, the body also recognizes the different between 70% and game intensity, which - if you've ever wondered why coaches say practice at game intensity, it's because of the Principle of Specificity - won't transfer over.

I hope this helps
Last edited by XFactor
I'm more worried about the long term adverse weighted balls may cause.

As everyone knows, a key to pitching is the ability to replicate delivery over and over again. This is extremely difficult to do, even for MLBers. So for amateur picthers it is close to impossible.

Well when you add weighted balls into the mix this becomes even more difficult, and again, close to impossible for most.

This is a concern I have voiced on numerous occassions both here and in private conversation with college and professional coaches.

To me, the risks far outweight the benefits, as there are plenty of safer (and more effective IMO) ways to increase velocity.
you all may be correct but as a kid most of us old fogey's used weighted balls quite often. they were water logged but we still played with them and they could get heavy. but most of us had strong arms,i'm not sure if it was because of ,or in spite of the rain soacked balls.
if you have ever used a weighted ball you can feel the difference right away. and you don't pitch with them, you play catch with them.also they are used with other methods of training to strengthen the throwing muscles. if not used correctly they can cause damage. much like anything done wrong.this is my opinion so,to each his own
Last edited by 20dad
blm,
You've been misled by people with an agenda. Weighted balls do work and the risks are there but minimal. The studies performed by Coop DeRenne showed conclusively that weighted balls did have a positive effective on throwing velocity, did not result in injury, and did not affect control.

The reality is that weighted balls in some ways are safer than normal weight balls because the arm just can't get moving quite as fast. Personally, I believe there is some added risk with underweight balls just based on what happens when throwing a tennis ball but that is a significantly underweight ball and not the 3.5 to 4 oz ball normally used for underweight throwing.
No, sorry, all those studies have been proven to have scientific errors in their reports.

3.12

"Escamila et al. failed to respect three facets of science.

1. They did not read, or if they did, interpret correctly the original works they cited. The double-checking of the original published articles should remove the perpetuation of misrepresentations that creep into the literature. That behavior is one of the basic tenets of scholarship. Science is about minimizing error. That did not occur in this case.

2. The works used to construct arguments should be valid and reliable, that is, they should be "true". The authors mixed scientific with non-scientific papers giving them all equal credibility when developing their arguments. When formulating hypotheses for research, the derivative premises must be true. That was not respected in this case.

3. The arguments developed for weighted ball throwing used mixed modalities. A paper using a resistance device was treated as being equivalent to actually throwing an object. Other mixed modality papers were also referenced, further muddying the picture. That type of reasoning leads to the production of false conclusions, as it did in this case."


3.6

"The belief that heavier or lighter stimuli will improve the velocity of pitching is at odds with other baseball-skill research. Otsuji, Abe, and Kino****a (2002) and Southard and Groomer (2003) studied the effect of swinging with a weighted bat on normal-bat velocity. As would be predicted, the weighted-bat had a negative effect in that it slowed the velocity of the normal bat swing despite subjects reporting the normal bat feeling lighter and being swung faster. In accord with the principle of specificity of neuromuscular patterning, Southard and Groomer also observed that the swing pattern with the normal bat was altered significantly after using an overweight bat.

Another investigation of under- and overloaded training stimuli was performed by Bauer, Sale, Zehr, and Moroz (1994). young men trained for five weeks using three sets of ballistic elbow extensions with a load equal to 10% of maximal isometric strength. Additional training (three sets of five repetitions) was performed at 0, 10, or 20% of the load. Neither the under- nor overload supplementary ballistic training provided any benefit beyond that attained by training with the target performance. Movement training was very specific. Effects gained from the other "like" activities did not transfer or benefit the target action. Much training time could be wasted performing activities based on the specious conclusion considered here.

One has to ask, how could the velocity and neuromuscular patterning of one baseball skill, batting, be harmed by using a heavier bat, when another skill, pitching, is improved supposedly by using a heavier ball? It is beyond credibility to believe that there is a different neuromuscular effect and principle for overweight implement use for the two very high velocity skills in the same sport.

A factor to consider here is that the bat studies were independent scientifically validated studies. Papers in the weighted-ball area are often unacceptable in research design or contain elemental review errors, such as investing generalizations in one author (and not exhibiting independent verification)."

24.6
"Neuromuscular patterning. The neuromuscular patterning of skill development is very specific. Slight oritentations in the speed of execution of the "same" skill produce totally different biomechanical and neuromuscular organizations (Councilman, 1968; Pipes, 1978). This feature seems to be neglected by many baseball coaches. Factors such as fatigue produce alterations in the patterning required to execute the "same" skill (Williams, McEwan, Watkins, Gillespie, & Boyd, 1979). Even within the realm of strength training, it is apparent that the inital major gains in strength are not through hypertrophy (a physiological phenomenon) but neuromuscular reorganization of existing physiological resoureces (Sale, 1974; Sale & MacDougall, 1981). For baseball, in which a light to moderate strength component is required, the best way to develop strength is to do the skill at a maximum effort (Costill, Sharp, & Troup, 1980)... The need for training is to focus on the specificity of training because of the extremely limited, specific effects of exercise and skill learning. It can be argued persuasively that the neuromuscular patterning of pitching skills is the major determinant of baseball pitching performance.

The implications from neuromuscular patterning as a feature of the principle of specificity are several. The activities of training should be analyzed so they are qualitatively the same as those required for a game. Each of the various types of pitches should be treated as discreet skills and not assumed to be "similar", particularly at the advanced levels of the sport. The potential exists that auxiliary training activities may produce competing and often dominant neuromuscular patterns which reduce or even hinder pitching skill.

The exacting requirements of specific neuromuscular training demands that there be a reduction in the use of auxiliary, non-specific activities for training athletes and dveloping skills."

So, the fact that you're not throwing off the mound, there's 1 way it's not going to transfer over. Another way is that, if you're not doing it with game-time intensity, there's another way it's not going to transfer over.
Oh and, why practice what you're not going to use in a game, when the arm is just a control device? The body delivers the arm. What's a 7 oz baseball going to do to help the body MOVE FASTER. I'd love to hear your explanation.


Ta-da
Last edited by XFactor
XFactor,
You have made alot of interesting points, but i have used weighted balls for about a year and they work. All of the scientifis stuff and results I DONT care about. If I found something that works then i stick with it until i stop seing results. Then I simply switch. With that said blm should try it and if he likes it and is seeing results then he should stick with it. There is no such thing of wasting time to try something new.
quote:
Originally posted by XFactor:
If the Principle of Specificity is a theory, then yes.. by all means, I do



well there are alot of good points being made and I do agree some what with redskinbb that doing somthing new is not a waste of time.That being said, when trying somthing new like this how much time do you spend to see if your getting results? I do beleive that a player needs to stay open minded to improve but at the sametime proceed with caution and do your homework.Its late in the year to start this I feel and to soon for me to decide if this is the best option.Thanks again to everyone for the pros and cons.You can't have to much info sooner or later you'll hear or see somthing that jumps out and make you decide.
jon doyle, try out the website the athletic pitcher with ron woolforth and give him a call to discuss this subject. I am surprised by some of your thoughts on the subject, but he will be able to address them better than I. I have bought quite a few of your products and from renegade training and what Iike with your training and discussiona is tha ability to think outside the box of your normal baseball training. take a look, talk to them and let me know what you think. thanks
I think Ron is great...and know for certain he gets great results for his students.

My problem is when an expert such as Ron is not around to pick out the minute mechanical flaws in a delivery that may cause injury. I think we can all agree there isn't a lot of room for error.

So my concern is more towards my opinion on difficulty of implimentation.
I agree with you on that Jon and I would not allow a player to do the program without supervision. After studying his program I also took the time to go to one of his 3 day clinics. At the same time I would not allow most players to follow a lifting program without proper supervision, my son does many of your programs and much of the technique is also taught with a dvd and book.
quote:
Originally posted by XFactor:
Has Tom House tried to submit them in any scholarly magazines?
I'm aware of the over/under weighted baseball studies, and they all fail to fulfill basic criteria for scientific consideration.

If there's no scientific support, you're just wasting your time practicing something that isn't going to help throw a 5 oz baseball to a specific point.



Doesn't this say it all: "The study did not attempt to evaluate these changes on pitching velocity with a regulation ball"

I am curious have you ever tried weighted ball? If not you might want to try it first hand.

We have, recorded and video taped every pitch, during two consecutive periods occurring during the fall season. 4.92 the first 12 weeks, 5.13 the second time. Over 10 mph in two seasons. However, I would not suggest just going out and buying a set of weighted balls without doing your research. You must execute the program with structure and knowledge.
Last edited by BigRed

X-Factor makes a good point; if other variables (growth, mechanics etc.)could contribute to the velocity increase over the time that these studies took place, then it would be difficult to atribute the gain to just one parameter.
That's why, when you do a study of this nature you include a control group, and you use several subjects to round out the effects of individual skill acquisition.
The studies done on weighted balls as well as other weighted impliment throwing had control groups and large numbers of participants; conclusion
THEY DO WORK TO INCREASE VELOCITY AT THE TARGET WEIGHT.
Rollerman
quote:
Originally posted by XFactor:
Unless that happened with an individual who's stopped growing and has a high skill level in pitching, then that gain could be from so many different things, to say it was all because of just one thing is... not the smartest thing in the world. No offense


Yea…up, me and my cousin’s, we knows we ain’t as smart as other folks in other parts of the woods but we’s still try real hard. My apologies there…uh,..big fellow, won’t waste any mores of yur time.

Dag-nabit, Fred! I knew we’s was ah… forgetting somethin. Let’s see now…first time he was what, 6’-3”, 175 lbs and uh, uh, 6’3” 180lbs that there second time round. And,…and what was it Uncle Joes says we should do next?

See there Fred! I told ya we had no business getin on this here website and tryin to talk with all these here smart fellars. Cmon, Fred let’s get on back down yonder to the house and see what’s for supper.
Last edited by BigRed

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