What do you do when the ump doesn't give you the corners?

sorry to hear that Montanadad...I am a pitcher as well for our varsity team...Now as i only throw anywhere from 78-83 i have to paint the corners..Usually for me if i hit the corners and the catcher frames the pitch well in the beginning of the game he might not give it to me..same with busting them inside..but as i prove myself to the ump that i can hit that spot all day...he starts calling it for me..Tell your son not to give up on hitting the outside corner or even busting him in..Some umps just wont give it, but plenty of them will if you prove yourself..good luck

You always have to give the UMP what he wants.
Last spring our Elite team had a DHr . The 1st game had 21 walks. I have never seen anything like it. My son closed the 2nd game and the same UMP took the plate. He tried a few CBs with poor results so he went to his FB. He also noticed where the UMP called a wide plate if you threw a FB. You look for thye UMPs zone and if you can locate you adapt to it.

montanadad,
When son went off to college thought that the umpiring would be a bit better, it is not always so.
Have found that even having same umpires, the zone still changes from game to game. I do notice that if one particular pitcher takes command of the game, the umpire will set his zone accordingly. That's why pitchers attitude and command on the mound is so important. And sometimes it is not all about the umpire, but the pitcher hasn't been able to adjust. Then it's up to the coach to decide to take the pitcher out, if his stuff is not working. And certainly help him to understand what he is doing wrong when he returns to the dugout.

Part of the maturing process of a pitcher is learning to deal with this particular problem and how to react to the challenge.
So frustrating when an umpire won't budge and quite noticible when the game moves along with all pitchers going deep in the count. But how that pitcher reacts will make a difference.

Helping him to understand that this happens to everyone at anytime and to forget about the last pitch, concentrate on teh next might help.

Throwing down the middle when completely frustrated might result in a huge mistake.

Keep working on those corners!

What do you do?

You become a pitcher.

If the blue isn't calling a certain spot a strike, then for goodness sakes don't throw there when you need a strike.

Can't defend against walks...

If the pitcher must move in a couple of inches to get a strike called, then he must do so. He must rely on movement and deception. Changing speeds.

A well thrown pitch with some movement or deception will result in weak contact even if is an inch or two over the plate rather than on the black.

Remember, Koufax said "I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it."

TPM, couldn't have been too bad on the calls on Sunday!

My son is a pitcher and we were in a tourney this weekend. 3 games, 3 completely different strike zones. In the game he pitched, the ump was calling them low and away, nothing too high and nothing inside (one of his favorite spots). As the starter, it seemd like he tried to establish the inside pitches on the black by changing location inside to outside but he didn't get the calls. Since he wasn't getting those, it seemed like he'd only go there when ahead.

Bottom line, I think it's a pitcher's job (and catcher) to learn the zone and adjust accordingly. You can argue calls till you're blue in the face but it's not going to help matters. So there's no sense in being stubborn and "holding location" trying to proove a point. Mix speeds and locations as good as you can in the zone he's giving you. It doesn't help the team any issuing walks on principal.

Texan and Beezer make some good points and you'd do well to take them to heart. A pitcher has to adjust and not let it get to him. After all, he is only doing the pitching, it isn't his job to call the balls and strikes, it's the umpires job. The Quicksand you mention starts once the pitcher thinks that he himself is the umpire and starts blaming the real umpire for 'getting it wrong'.

Another thing that can keep a pitcher from getting the calls on the black is if the catcher is inexperienced or downright clueless. If he's just putting the mitt any-old-place for a target and he has to move it to catch the pitch your son is taking pains to keep on the black, some umps will be more hesitant to call it a strike, whereas if he put the mitt target on the black and your son nails it every time, then he may well get the benefit of the strike call. That's not always the case, but it doesn't help things to look like he's always missing the target.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
TPM, couldn't have been too bad on the calls on Sunday!

Midlo DAd,
Not great calls, had to make the adjustment....curveballs.
Point is, you have to learn how to adjust.

become a pitcher
it couldn't be said any better tham Tex said it

actually, I'm kinda alarmed that so few are able to grasp that a 7 pitch inning with 2 ground outs & a pop-up is better for the PITCHER & TEAM than a 24 pitch inning with 3 K's

jmo .. but a good one

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman:
actually, I'm kinda alarmed that so few are able to grasp that a 7 pitch inning with 2 ground outs & a pop-up is better for the PITCHER & TEAM than a 24 pitch inning with 3 K's

jmo .. but a good one

Preach on brother! I'm with you.

Texan son has gotten the first two outs on two pitches (total) on a reasonable number of occasions. I offered a steak dinner if he made it three outs on three pitches. Fortunately, it always took four pitches for him to get out of those innings.

loosen the purse strings Tex, that steak can be a good investment

I was just talking about that last nite when ESPN showed a Sox/Indians recast & Danny Graves threw a 4 pitch 8th innning in relief

I only get to call pitches that the batter chooses not to swing at.....a pitcher throws a vast array of pitches, some he wants to resemble a strike, some that are clearly not strikes and a number of pitches that are close to being strikes.......

I umpired a high quality pitcher and noted his pitch selection over one innning...

Batter one...


Fast ball in- called strike..
fast ball away- swinging strike..
change up- swinging strike 3..

batter two...
Change up low - Ground ball out...

Batter Three

fast ball away- ball
Fast ball away- foul ball strike one..
curve ball-ball
fast ball- swinging strike two..
curve ball for called strike three.....

an exceptional inning....9 pitches......only 3 of which were balls I either called strikes or would have.....his location, his speed adjustment, his pitch selection dictated what was in play.......over the 5 innings I called while he pitched, my opinion only impacted 20 or so pitches........he was the pitcher and not just throwing balls up there....the times I called a pitch differently than he wanted he just went back to a pitch or location he knew the batter could not resist.....

Its learning to be a pitcher and not a thrower.....its remarkably the same advice I give hitters....go up there looking for a pitch to hit, not one that will or wont be called a strike.

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman:
loosen the purse strings Tex, that steak can be a good investment

You mean I wasn't supposed to be yelling and jumping up & down, trying to distract the pitcher???

piaa_ump,
Nice post.

Chairman,
I agree that 7 pichinning is THE best, for the team and pitcher.

Induce the ground ball or pop up. A pitcher who tries to strike out every hitter won't last long, and his team mates will get bored!

You can always do what I saw an ACC RHP do just recently who wasn't getting the calls even though I wouldn't have advised it: Strike em out anyway and yell at hitter and umpire on the way to dugout

Shep,
Why do you bring up ACC pitchers in posts? Two now recently, somewhat negative IMO.
There are a few of us here who have ACC pitchers, so wondering if you were speaking of anyone in particular.
Is it your non fav conference perhaps?

I have no idea what your talking about....I love ACC pitchers that are pitching in the leagues I am currently doing pro-coverage and I am even recommending several for the show and some for AAA and AA, in fact. peace, Shep

Speaking of boring for the fielders. High School prospect 6'9 RHP Dellin Betances, New York, struck out 20 in 7 innings the other night. You can be sure there were no 6 or 7 pitch innings in that one.

PGJerry,

I told a Major League baseball GM in Ft Pierce tonight, at Colton Willems show, during lengthy conversation, all about the above mentioned prospect Dellin Betances. The really strange ironic coincidence after I thought about conversation I had with GM last night was the fact that PGJerry posted this message about Dellin at almost the same exact time as conversation occured.....thousands of miles away....Wow Jerry, guess we do think alike in some regards

By-the-way, really had his ear about Dellin being a late-bloomer this spring because of weather and certainly discussed Aflac showing. This baseball boss really had my ear too and liked Colton as well. Probably wouldn't be a good idea to name him because of high importance of his presence as far as draft order but let me just say, there were many other places he could have been last night all over the USA but chose John Carroll HS and Colton Willems to scout. Here is a clue though, his team has pick in top 15 selections of first round

Peace,

Shep

Just had a conversation about this with an umpire. You can "trick" most umpires into giving you the call you need. However, you have to start by finding the edge of their zone and throwing the ball there. If that is 2 inches in off the corner then so be it. Once you've done that if you can gradually work out toward the corner you'll find that human nature will cause the ump to start giving you the call. If you throw a strike and the next pitch is only a 1/4" or 1/2" further out the umpire will tend to give you the strike call because it was so close to what they just called a strike. Sometimes by the time a pitcher is done the zone will have expanded by several inches. It won't work with every umpire, but it will work pretty often. You can do the same thing with high pitches or low pitches too.

I have already forgiven you. peace, Shep

WOW, CAdad! Your pitchers really have good control to start walking pitches in by 1/4"!!!

I've never seen one of those!

Wow,

Can we please remember that we are talking about HS pitchers here.

CADad,

Your approach to the problem is very good, in theory. If you can find a HS kid that can do that, quit your job and become his agent!

I read through this thread and noticed one aspect of this discussion lacking. It is true that young developing pitchers need to learn how to deal with varying strike zones from umpires.

But, it is fair to put all responsibility that on 15 to 18 yr old who is trying to master the mechanics of the game both offensively and pitching wise?

Part of the solution is to get umpires away from "their" strike zone. Last time I read the rule book, IT defined the strike zone not the umpire! Umpires are human and will make mistakes, that is part of the game. When a kid throws pitch right down the middle at the belt over & over & over again and its called high, that is an umpire deciding to alter the rules of the game. He is an adult, supposedly trained and getting paid for his services. I don't think its too much to ask of them to call the balls and strikes according to the rule book. If everyone agrees to change the book to let the umpire decide where strike zone is, then your all right. It would then be up to the kid to figure out where the zone is today.

This is also true for the hitters. It is expecting a bit much of a HS leadoff hitter to know that today that 2-strike fastball that is 2 full baseballs off the plate is a strike.