What do you look at?

It's not an either/or, you have to look at both.

A guy who has had to go deep in innings more than once may be done by the 4th or 5th with a pitch count that would normally be OK for him.

I don't like to see HS guys go over 110 in any event.

A control guy who can maybe do 9 innings in an extra-inning game and stay under that number will still need extra rest, because you have to take into account the number of times he had to warm up. He may finish that game but not be ready as soon as he might've been had he done the same number of pitches in 7 innings.

We generally factor out innings pitched. It can be very deceiving. Our starters pitch on 3 or 4 days rest (3 days meaning pitch on Monday, then again on Friday).

Depending on the kids maturity and physical make-up, as well as the weather, we have stretched players to 100-110 pitches. We play 7 inning games, carry lots of pitchers on the club, so we don't feel the need to make our horses (best pitchers) throw complete games all the time. If a guy is in the 5th and hits the 100 pitch mark, he probably hasn't been too effective in getting people out anyway, so bring the hook out and give somebody else a chance.

My two cents.

Innings don't matter at all. A kid can and has gone 5 innings with less than 30 pitches. I have witnessed this more than once.
Our high schoolers were limited to 80 pitches until sr. year when they could elect to go over 100. We always shut them down at 110. Since we played 2 games a week generally, they all got 3 days rest in between. We would also try to stay under 20% curves until Jr. year. We didn't really call more than 30% anyway. With 2 fastballs, a Ch and a curve, not much more is needed. The health of the young players arm is always first as we are just a stop along the way for some.

I'm not a coahc, but as a player/teammate, I'd like to see my pitcher go on and on until he starts leaving pitches in the strike zone that are hittable and starte getting hit hard or give up more and more walks. No matter how many pitches, when he starts to have a lotta runners on base, than you know that it's about time to have a pitching change IMO.

Uh Mr. 3000 you just proved everyones point. If you are missing, walking or getting hit then your pitch count is going to be high.

I am a high school coach and I have absolutely no idea what my state regulates on innings pitched. My team only goes by number of pitches thrown.

In most states if you throw one inning you can usually throw the next day with no rest. Well if you throw 15 - 25 pitches you probably be fine and nothing wrong BUT what if you throw 60 pitches in an inning (can be done). Technically you can come back the next day but really you should not.

I coach a youth team, I'm with the other coaches - innings pitched are pretty much meaningless. I always keep track of pitch count, if a kid is getting close to our pitch limit he won't start the next inning. Besides, if a kid is close to the limit he's probably starting to lose it anyway. The key is to constantly work on developing enough pitchers so that you don't need to ride one or two studs into the ground. For a tournament it's especially imperative to have plenty of capable arms.

I go by pitch count, with the additional caveat that if a kid ends up throwing a much higher pitch count than normal in any one inning, (forced to pitch more due to errors usually) then I'd probably give him the hook later in the game before he reached a game pitch limit.

Reason being that I think one 30(+) pitch inning is tougher on the arm than two 15 pitch innings separated by your team's at bat during which his arm gets a short break. Not sure if there is any science behind it, but generally that's what I've found. Not always, but it's reason enough to err on the side of caution.

(Of course, if his inning PC is high due to getting hit or walking guys left and right, then he'll get the hook probably right there and then for obvious reasons.)

Mr. 3000, if you wait until the guy's putting guys all over the bases, you've waited too long. There are usually signs in advance of that, and if you pull the kid based on the signs you can both save his arm and the game, quite often.

Inconsistency with the curve is one sign. If it was sharp, then it goes to sometimes sharp/sometimes hanging, that's a sign. As another indicator, I especially watch the strike/ball ratio from inning to inning. If a guy throwing 2/1 strikes to balls suddenly has a 50/50 inning, he is losing it and you send him out again at your peril.

I see coaches send kids out there again after innings like that all the time. The typical result is that the next inning is one with a high pitch count and you're lucky if you escape without runs. Better to pull him while he's still only moderately fatigued, leave the outing as a positive experience and again, save your team the runs.

Good question TR. I have always looked at the pitches thrown and not the innings pitched. Kids can have very low pitched counts and still pitch alot of innings. And then a kid and throw a ton in three or four innings.

Pitch count to protect the arm. Strike to ball ratio is the early warning to protect the win too.

I coach both high school and a 13 and under tournament team. On both teams, my pitchers are limited to a certain number of pitches because some kids can throw 70 pitches in five innings where as some may throw that number in 3 innings. So pitch count IMO is the way to go.

I asked the pitch count question to a minor league pitching coach a few years ago.His response was no pitch counts as a rule.You could be limiting their progression.Look for when the pitcher is starting to tire and then get him out.I thought it was good advice.

There is a big problem with too much subjectivity. Many coaches in other threads will say it depends upon the pitcher -- some can go longer than others. But how do you really know? You cannnot see in a kids arm or shoulder. You have no ability to determine who can pitch deep and who cannot.

Don't try going by finese or power pitchers. The power pitcher may have really good mechanics and the slower pitcher bad mechanics.

My son has been overpitched by me and other coaches. Mine when I first started coaching and out of ignorance. If you ask him if he is tired or hurting he will always tell you he can go back out. He is the last to ask. Sometimes he is effective even when tired.

He has had two shoulder separations (when young) and elbow surgery this past year. He should not have been on the "I'll decide as the game goes on" pitch count.

He was drafted as a RHP and throws in the 90s. Thank goodness we may have survived high school and select ball. He is healthy now and on a pitch count.

Probably a combination of both, but pitch count is certainly the more important of the two. You can't discredit the importance of innings, though, because you must take into account the amount of TIME between pitches. Pitch counts are HUGE though...any coach that doesn't track pitches scares the **** out of me!

I look at both, but put much more emphasis on pitch counts. Not only pitch counts, but how many innings has my pitcher had where he threw a lot of pitches in a single inning. Also, how much has he been working out of the stretch vs. windup. A guy can be cruising, but if he has a 30+ pitch inning, especially if it's after the first couple innings or if he's had a couple high pitch innings, you might want to think about getting someone up, even if his pitch count isn't all that high. Chances are, he won't be around very long and for the pitcher's sake, should be taken out before it gets out of hand. It's not just total pitches; those big innings take a toll on a pitcher out of proportion to the total.

Way back in the neanthredal days when I started coaching pitch counts were just that. As a coach somebody did not say so and so had thrown x amount of pitches. If he was in the third inning and had thrown say 70 pitches he was not getting the job done and was out of there.

tom house says that every pitch over 25 in an inning should be multiplied times 3 and that and pitch over 100 should be multiplied times 3. when you calculate the count and the strain on an arm he says that these are the equivalents to what is actually happpening to young arms.

with all the "knowledge"we have how do you explain the long careers and complete games pitched by pitchers in the50's and 60,s