What future college doors close for a high academic kid if he goes JUCO?

I can’t speak from experience, but I think you have to group the HA schools in how HA they are. As someone recently described them as elite HA, I don’t see these top schools taking transfers. Just reading through their undergrad programs many have very specific paths to a degree. I haven’t looked as closely at the next level of HA’s.

Has he asked any of the coaches he’s talking to?

We know a kid who transferred from JuCo to one of the HA schools you named. It’s not common but it happens. The graduation rate there is 93% so they don’t have room for many transfers,  athletics aside.

“In 2019, Harvard University received 1548 transfer applicants. The school accepted 15 students. Therefore, the transfer acceptance rate for Harvard University is 0.97%. This indicates how hard it is to transfer into Harvard University.”

In the 80’s a cousin was one of about fifteen. He transferred from another Ivy. He was an athlete (ran track). He wrote an incredible, personal experience, emotionally moving essay. A couple of JuCo transfers get accepted every year. It’s more likely to be someone who got wait listed and proved themselves at another quality college.

I believe a JuCo transfer has a better chance transferring from a JuCo to a P5.

I’m not sure about transferring into HA D3’s. Their general acceptance rates are among the most challenging in the country due to how many apply and how few they accept due to the enrollment size.

I wonder if you can tell simply by whether a school's roster grid has a column for "previous school"?   Some schools have already posted their 2022 rosters.  Northwestern does not have a column for "previous school," nor does William and Mary.  Richmond's roster does, and lists six transfers, mostly R-Srs or grads, one from a juco.  At some schools, almost all the juniors and seniors are juco transfers.

@anotherparent posted:

I wonder if you can tell simply by whether a school's roster grid has a column for "previous school"?   Some schools have already posted their 2022 rosters.  Northwestern does not have a column for "previous school," nor does William and Mary.  Richmond's roster does, and lists six transfers, mostly R-Srs or grads, one from a juco.  At some schools, almost all the juniors and seniors are juco transfers.

The accuracy of previous school on the schools website depends on the division, conference and school.

The fall rosters are incomplete with respects to transfer information.

Secondly, it will depend on what website provider a school uses.

Historically,  schools might record the players latest school not multiple transfers.

Not every school records previous school or they use a different place, eg. the bio.

NCAA-D1 - 80% accurate  in total there were ~3200 players that transferred at some point in time.

NCAA-D2 - 70% (total transfers  ~3500

NCAA-D3 -  Found more than 500 transfers that are not listed (total ~1100)

D3 normally does not record the players previous school

NAIA - 55% accurate  (~3100) transfers)

We've done extensive reconciliation of student transfers.

Here an example of JUCO Pipeline snapshot (Wabash Valley CC 2021)

Our next release will provide JUCO Pipeline details

Below are examples of Team Roster Turnover

Wabash Valley 2021 Player Turnover (# of players from 2020 roster that left program with reason)

Wabash Valley 2021 Incoming (# of overall vs # of players that transferred into the school)

Includes what level they transferred from.

My son was drafted out of W&M and there were several transfers on the roster each year.  The ones I can think of off the top of my head were D1-JuCo-D1.  Keep in touch with the coaches.

With plenty of ifs, ands and buts, probably nothing. Or nothing that really matters in the long run to your son's success. It would really be up to him how it turns out. I imagine a possible risk of keeping the "High Academic" mindset if in a JUCO.

A '22 on a D1 "radar" is borderline D1 as a player, or there would be offers. A 30+ ACT and 1400 SAT are very impressive, but average SAT at Harvard is 1515. And 1520 at Harvard of the South (Rice, a D1 baseball school).

Great thing is your son has options.  Good luck to him.

@Go44dad posted:

I imagine a possible risk of keeping the "High Academic" mindset if in a JUCO.

This is a great point. My son considered HA route and just started at a competitive JUCO program. You have to consider the environment that builds a HA mindset, and what of that will be present for your son at a competitive JUCO program.

Not that this means anything but my sons HA D3 has zero transfers from Juco.  They do have two D1 drop downs though.  

Anything is possible though.  Best advice is get the best grades you can and keep training and working hard.  Reach out and talk with coaches.  Some Juco's have good relationships with the local big school.  Do your research and talk to everybody.

If the goal is to extend HA opportunities I suggest looking into a PG year on the East coast. Several of the '22 commits this year in the Ivies are '21 reclasses that took a PG year in the Northeast. Also, at least here in CA, the top JUCOs have VERY crowded rosters which will make reps and continued development difficult.  The downsides to a PG year are potentially quality of play and obviously the expense, the latter of which could be offset with financial aid depending on your financial situation. It may be an opportunity to improve some of the academic scores too. As one poster already mentioned the HA route wants a 34+ ACT and 1500+ SAT to be competitive. And in our experience the HA D3 programs were harder to get offers from than D1 programs so a player needs the best academic credentials he can muster. Given your MidWest locale, Lawrence University and Grinnell are great options too. My son loved both staffs and each works really hard to place their kids in solid Summer leagues. Best of luck.

@Long415 posted:

This is a great point. My son considered HA route and just started at a competitive JUCO program. You have to consider the environment that builds a HA mindset, and what of that will be present for your son at a competitive JUCO program.

The student just has to keep competing against him/herself. My daughter took two summer school courses at a local JuCo. She told herself she better get an A even though the classes were recorded as pass/fail on her transcripts.

Let’s say starting at a JuCo means not transferring into a HA. I attended a HA. I got my number choice job out of college. There were people hired from ordinary state universities. They were probably the top of their class.

My son had HA’s targeted. He got injured. The HA recruiters disappeared. He went to a quality Big Ten. He got the same job he would have wanted out of an HA after getting an MBA (had five to play four, left with two degrees).

On the flip side my daughter graduated PBK from a mediocre state university. The school was one of the tops in the country in her major. With excellent LSATs she wasn’t accepted to any of the six top fifteen law schools she applied. She worked in a prestigious law firm doing legal research for two years., built references and got into an Ivy. I believe northeast snobbery towards southern schools was a factor in not getting accepted out of college. It was offset working in a DC law firm after undergrad.

Both of them emphasized the leadership and competitiveness that came from playing baseball/softball at the collegiate level.

Degrees from HA’s opens doors. If you don’t go to a HA excel and kick the door in.

My son is it at a HA D3. They do have a JUCO transfer in this fall, and from what I understand he is the first one in about 10 years. A lot of the players that go to a JUCO don’t have the high school Grades to get into a HA D3, and while there are some that do, the classes at a JUCO don’t always transfer as well.  

It is a great question, usedtolurk.  I agree with Go44Dad that it has "plenty of ifs, ands and buts, probably nothing. Or nothing that really matters in the long run to your son's success. It would really be up to him how it turns out. I imagine a possible risk of keeping the "High Academic" mindset if in a JUCO".

The biggest issue I see is what is the end goal (priority) which kind of gets back to that mindset that Go44Dad mentioned.  What are you trying to accomplish in your 4-5 years and what is your area of study.  The overwhelming number of JUCO recruits are going down that path to develop baseball skills to leverage that into a next level D1 opportunity and hedging a career in something else should their baseball career falter.  The overwhelming number of D1 or D3 HA recruits are developing academic skills to leverage that into a career and some are hedging for professional baseball should that opportunity present itself.  In my mind, it is a priority question.   There is no right or wrong with either for a recruit who has these options, it is just a matter of priority.  It has been said on here many times that you have to pick a priority between academics, athletics and financial.   Granted, they are all important, but one is more important than the others.

As always, JMO.

PS...My son attended an Ivy for 4 years.  They had two JUCO transfers in those 4 years and one D1 transfer as far as I can remember.  The Ivy he attended has both a public and private charter.  Under the public charter they allowed in-state JUCO transfers. 

I agree with fenway (of course), but my sense is that here dad prioritizes one thing and son wants something different.  Dad thinks that his priority - put a good education first - makes more sense, which is what most on this site advise.

Used2lurk, I get that you think your son may be throwing away great educational D3 opportunities to pursue his dream of D1 via a juco.  No-one can tell you what will ultimately happen.  But, you can stare your worst-case scenario in the face - which seems to be "go to juco, then end up at NAIA/D2/non-HA D3" - and decide to be positive about that.

And in fact, there are many other curveballs that might be encountered along the way, some better and some worse, and some utterly unforeseeable (such as a global pandemic).

I appreciate all of the answers/advice so far in this thread. Good to see some newer posters and also some of the grizzled vets as well. Lots of great thoughts and ideas from PG's to reclassification along with staying academically focused if attending a JUCO. Also keeping in mind the goal(s) of the student-athlete or in my son's case while looking at the potential 40 year impact of the degree/network/relationships one can make in college.

When starting a thread I try to be more general in nature of the question and player information so it can be searched and utilized by others in the future. This situation is one that my son is dealing with right now. I will get more a little more specific on his situation, my thoughts, and where we are at this point (not marketing but making a generic post more realistic):

Background on my kid: 6'4"/190, LHH C/OF/CIF, 33 ACT & 3.7 gpa with rigor from what academic people think is a top private school in our state.

*PBR stats: 7.06 - 60, pos velos (77/82/82), trackman exit velo 90/95 (avg/high). All stats are higher later in summer but not PBR verified (whatever any of that is worth).   *Son is slightly above average in the field but his #1 tool is his bat and athletic ability (and he is still a boy physically).    *He played on a team with a national schedule for the first time this past summer (albeit limited). Also made AZ Fall Classic Academic team (nothing came of it for him)    *Hamate bone injury/misdiagnosis/removal all spring and into summer meant zero HS baseball and only 4 National tournaments this summer in July (Grand Park, Lakepoint, Creekside, and The Rock). Zero batting practice all spring/summer (too much lingering pain from BP to be able to hit in games) and ended up hitting .300 over 50 ab's. Hit at Showball in August (in pain), then took 3 weeks off of hitting then hit at a specific prospect camp in end of August that he was invited to attend (school chose final 2 offers from camp). Did not hit well for him at either place and Doc recommended 2 months of no hitting to heal trauma around original injury so started that Sept 1. See Doc tomorrow for update #1.

2 best options for son on table today are:  

(1)  HA-D3 that does not have athletic spots (like the NESCAC does) where he is not essentially guaranteed acceptance but coach said wants him and will walk his application to admissions with zero guarantees. Counselor at kid's school is fairly confident son will get accepted.                                                                                      

(2)  JUCO in Iowa in a strong conference with that consistently places kids in D1 (I think 10+ from last years team) and other 4 year schools with what appears to be a great group of coaches. Son knows a couple of kids on the team this year and will most likely know a few more that would attend next year. They have offered him the most they are able to offer athletically (that is our understanding) and have not put a time frame on that offer.

I am thankful we do not have to make any decisions today but will likely have to make first decision by the end of this month (potentially to ED to HA-D3). Son visits school for second time later this week to watch a practice, meet assistant/hitting coach, meet with admissions, take regular student campus tour, and show campus to mom (important!!!). Son continues to eat, sleep, lift, repeat while waiting for the go ahead to start to hit again.

As a 50-ish year old ex athlete who is comfortable in his career I am truly conflicted on the correct path for my son. I believe that academics matter but also believe that there are other things that matter a lot as well. Work ethic, being intellectually curious, networking, relationships, and integrity. While my kid is not a networker he is truly liked everywhere he is in his daily life and people come out of the woodwork wherever we go to greet/connect with my kid because they like him. He has his baseball peeps (from all walks of life) and his buds at school that are a truly diverse group of boys (mostly nerdy kids who are in to programming, own e-commerce businesses, trade stocks/crypto, and like to play poker). There also is value in striving to be excellent and pursuing your dream (playing professional baseball) while you can. I do not want him to look back later in life and regret that he did not go for it with baseball because his dad told him there was a .027% chance of playing professionally and to forget about baseball. I regret 2 athletic decisions I did not choose to follow and still wonder what might have happened...most likely nothing but wish I had pursued them further than I did.

This place is awesome and I am thankful for feedback from y'all and appreciate the ability to talk about these things with you folks. Its been a great gift to me (and indirectly my son) in this process. Great luck to all!!!

*edited for format issues

@used2lurk posted:

I appreciate all of the answers/advice so far in this thread. Good to see some newer posters and also some of the grizzled vets as well. Lots of great thoughts and ideas from PG's to reclassification along with staying academically focused if attending a JUCO. Also keeping in mind the goal(s) of the student-athlete or in my son's case while looking at the potential 40 year impact of the degree/network/relationships one can make in college.

When starting a thread I try to be more general in nature of the question and player information so it can be searched and utilized by others in the future. This situation is one that my son is dealing with right now. I will get more a little more specific on his situation, my thoughts, and where we are at this point (not marketing but making a generic post more realistic):

Background on my kid: 6'4"/190, LHH C/OF/CIF, 33 ACT & 3.7 gpa with rigor from what academic people think is a top private school in our state.

*PBR stats: 7.06 - 60, pos velos (77/82/82), trackman exit velo 90/95 (avg/high). All stats are higher later in summer but not PBR verified (whatever any of that is worth).   *Son is slightly above average in the field but his #1 tool is his bat and athletic ability (and he is still a boy physically).    *He played on a team with a national schedule for the first time this past summer (albeit limited). Also made AZ Fall Classic Academic team (nothing came of it for him)    *Hamate bone injury/misdiagnosis/removal all spring and into summer meant zero HS baseball and only 4 National tournaments this summer in July (Grand Park, Lakepoint, Creekside, and The Rock). Zero batting practice all spring/summer (too much lingering pain from BP to be able to hit in games) and ended up hitting .300 over 50 ab's. Hit at Showball in August (in pain), then took 3 weeks off of hitting then hit at a specific prospect camp in end of August that he was invited to attend (school chose final 2 offers from camp). Did not hit well for him at either place and Doc recommended 2 months of no hitting to heal trauma around original injury so started that Sept 1. See Doc tomorrow for update #1.

2 best options for son on table today are:  

(1)  HA-D3 that does not have athletic spots (like the NESCAC does) where he is not essentially guaranteed acceptance but coach said wants him and will walk his application to admissions with zero guarantees. Counselor at kid's school is fairly confident son will get accepted.                                                                                      

(2)  JUCO in Iowa in a strong conference with that consistently places kids in D1 (I think 10+ from last years team) and other 4 year schools with what appears to be a great group of coaches. Son knows a couple of kids on the team this year and will most likely know a few more that would attend next year. They have offered him the most they are able to offer athletically (that is our understanding) and have not put a time frame on that offer.

I am thankful we do not have to make any decisions today but will likely have to make first decision by the end of this month (potentially to ED to HA-D3). Son visits school for second time later this week to watch a practice, meet assistant/hitting coach, meet with admissions, take regular student campus tour, and show campus to mom (important!!!). Son continues to eat, sleep, lift, repeat while waiting for the go ahead to start to hit again.

As a 50-ish year old ex athlete who is comfortable in his career I am truly conflicted on the correct path for my son. I believe that academics matter but also believe that there are other things that matter a lot as well. Work ethic, being intellectually curious, networking, relationships, and integrity. While my kid is not a networker he is truly liked everywhere he is in his daily life and people come out of the woodwork wherever we go to greet/connect with my kid because they like him. He has his baseball peeps (from all walks of life) and his buds at school that are a truly diverse group of boys (mostly nerdy kids who are in to programming, own e-commerce businesses, trade stocks/crypto, and like to play poker). There also is value in striving to be excellent and pursuing your dream (playing professional baseball) while you can. I do not want him to look back later in life and regret that he did not go for it with baseball because his dad told him there was a .027% chance of playing professionally and to forget about baseball. I regret 2 athletic decisions I did not choose to follow and still wonder what might have happened...most likely nothing but wish I had pursued them further than I did.

This place is awesome and I am thankful for feedback from y'all and appreciate the ability to talk about these things with you folks. Its been a great gift to me (and indirectly my son) in this process. Great luck to all!!!

*edited for format issues

Life has twists and turns, there will be many pivots, Just be the best informed and chose based on the information available.

Denzel Washington said it best in the Play Fences "Sometimes we have to take a straight line crooked", parapharsed.

Put forth information to your son, ultimately it is his decision.

@used2lurk posted:

I appreciate all of the answers/advice so far in this thread. Good to see some newer posters and also some of the grizzled vets as well. Lots of great thoughts and ideas from PG's to reclassification along with staying academically focused if attending a JUCO. Also keeping in mind the goal(s) of the student-athlete or in my son's case while looking at the potential 40 year impact of the degree/network/relationships one can make in college.

When starting a thread I try to be more general in nature of the question and player information so it can be searched and utilized by others in the future. This situation is one that my son is dealing with right now. I will get more a little more specific on his situation, my thoughts, and where we are at this point (not marketing but making a generic post more realistic):

Background on my kid: 6'4"/190, LHH C/OF/CIF, 33 ACT & 3.7 gpa with rigor from what academic people think is a top private school in our state.

*PBR stats: 7.06 - 60, pos velos (77/82/82), trackman exit velo 90/95 (avg/high). All stats are higher later in summer but not PBR verified (whatever any of that is worth).   *Son is slightly above average in the field but his #1 tool is his bat and athletic ability (and he is still a boy physically).    *He played on a team with a national schedule for the first time this past summer (albeit limited). Also made AZ Fall Classic Academic team (nothing came of it for him)    *Hamate bone injury/misdiagnosis/removal all spring and into summer meant zero HS baseball and only 4 National tournaments this summer in July (Grand Park, Lakepoint, Creekside, and The Rock). Zero batting practice all spring/summer (too much lingering pain from BP to be able to hit in games) and ended up hitting .300 over 50 ab's. Hit at Showball in August (in pain), then took 3 weeks off of hitting then hit at a specific prospect camp in end of August that he was invited to attend (school chose final 2 offers from camp). Did not hit well for him at either place and Doc recommended 2 months of no hitting to heal trauma around original injury so started that Sept 1. See Doc tomorrow for update #1.

2 best options for son on table today are:  

(1)  HA-D3 that does not have athletic spots (like the NESCAC does) where he is not essentially guaranteed acceptance but coach said wants him and will walk his application to admissions with zero guarantees. Counselor at kid's school is fairly confident son will get accepted.                                                                                      

(2)  JUCO in Iowa in a strong conference with that consistently places kids in D1 (I think 10+ from last years team) and other 4 year schools with what appears to be a great group of coaches. Son knows a couple of kids on the team this year and will most likely know a few more that would attend next year. They have offered him the most they are able to offer athletically (that is our understanding) and have not put a time frame on that offer.

I am thankful we do not have to make any decisions today but will likely have to make first decision by the end of this month (potentially to ED to HA-D3). Son visits school for second time later this week to watch a practice, meet assistant/hitting coach, meet with admissions, take regular student campus tour, and show campus to mom (important!!!). Son continues to eat, sleep, lift, repeat while waiting for the go ahead to start to hit again.

As a 50-ish year old ex athlete who is comfortable in his career I am truly conflicted on the correct path for my son. I believe that academics matter but also believe that there are other things that matter a lot as well. Work ethic, being intellectually curious, networking, relationships, and integrity. While my kid is not a networker he is truly liked everywhere he is in his daily life and people come out of the woodwork wherever we go to greet/connect with my kid because they like him. He has his baseball peeps (from all walks of life) and his buds at school that are a truly diverse group of boys (mostly nerdy kids who are in to programming, own e-commerce businesses, trade stocks/crypto, and like to play poker). There also is value in striving to be excellent and pursuing your dream (playing professional baseball) while you can. I do not want him to look back later in life and regret that he did not go for it with baseball because his dad told him there was a .027% chance of playing professionally and to forget about baseball. I regret 2 athletic decisions I did not choose to follow and still wonder what might have happened...most likely nothing but wish I had pursued them further than I did.

This place is awesome and I am thankful for feedback from y'all and appreciate the ability to talk about these things with you folks. Its been a great gift to me (and indirectly my son) in this process. Great luck to all!!!

*edited for format issues

Hi U2L, my 2023 is very similar to your son academically.   Baseball metric wise also, minus 7 inches and 40lbs, LOL.   2023 throws harder but EV's a little less; similar foot speed. 

We JUST had a family conversation about JUCOs last evening.  Previously my wife and I have hammered home to him that he should attend a 4 year college and do his best to find the right fit to reduce the chances of transferring.   We have the wherewithal for this and felt that this leads to the least tumultuous undergrad years.  At the risk of offending some, I've also held the snobby view that JUCOs are for less academically gifted kids or those parents who need to save a bit of money before their kid transfers to finish at a "regular" State school.

Admittedly my son knows quite a few kids who don't play baseball particularly very well and tell him they plan to "go JUCO first and then transfer in to play D1 baseball".   I'm talking about kids who throw 65-70 mph from the outfield, exit velo 75, and hit .200.   D1 baseball is a delusional pipe dream for them and they would never get into one of the JUCO baseball programs that have a high number of D1 transfers.  For them, I wish someone would sit down and give them a reality check.   This doesn't sound like your kid. 

2023 is our oldest so this is all new ground for us.  I've now started to soften a bit on the concept of JUCO first.  Now I'm starting to think that it will all work out in life the way it is supposed to.   Aside from some random sniffing, 2023 has had no D1 schools interested in him.  And he can actually play a little: sophomore starting SS.  All conference; All academic team,  hit .450 this summer, yada yada.   But honestly I know he doesn't metric out like the top 10-15 postion players in the state.  He's in that next tier down.  I also know that come next summer a bunch of HA D3s will be interested in  him.

So... we had that talk last night that if he really wanted to try to play D1, I would be OK with him going JUCO; working hard on baseball and grades; and transferring to finish his degree.  I suspect he would not be able to transfer to an Ivy or whatever elite school, but I'm thinking that will be a-OK also.   Ultimately I've got to let go of the reins, let him live his life, and trust his life skills will ultimately put him on the right track. 

Not exactly an answer but I hope this is helpful.

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Hi U2L, my 2023 is very similar to your son academically.   Baseball metric wise also, minus 7 inches and 40lbs, LOL.   2023 throws harder but EV's a little less; similar foot speed.

We JUST had a family conversation about JUCOs last evening.  Previously my wife and I have hammered home to him that he should attend a 4 year college and do his best to find the right fit to reduce the chances of transferring.   We have the wherewithal for this and felt that this leads to the least tumultuous undergrad years.  At the risk of offending some, I've also held the snobby view that JUCOs are for less academically gifted kids or those parents who need to save a bit of money before their kid transfers to finish at a "regular" State school.

Admittedly my son knows quite a few kids who don't play baseball particularly very well and tell him they plan to "go JUCO first and then transfer in to play D1 baseball".   I'm talking about kids who throw 65-70 mph from the outfield, exit velo 75, and hit .200.   D1 baseball is a delusional pipe dream for them and they would never get into one of the JUCO baseball programs that have a high number of D1 transfers.  For them, I wish someone would sit down and give them a reality check.   This doesn't sound like your kid.

2023 is our oldest so this is all new ground for us.  I've now started to soften a bit on the concept of JUCO first.  Now I'm starting to think that it will all work out in life the way it is supposed to.   Aside from some random sniffing, 2023 has had no D1 schools interested in him.  And he can actually play a little: sophomore starting SS.  All conference; All academic team,  hit .450 this summer, yada yada.   But honestly I know he doesn't metric out like the top 10-15 postion players in the state.  He's in that next tier down.  I also know that come next summer a bunch of HA D3s will be interested in  him.

So... we had that talk last night that if he really wanted to try to play D1, I would be OK with him going JUCO; working hard on baseball and grades; and transferring to finish his degree.  I suspect he would not be able to transfer to an Ivy or whatever elite school, but I'm thinking that will be a-OK also.   Ultimately I've got to let go of the reins, let him live his life, and trust his life skills will ultimately put him on the right track.

Not exactly an answer but I hope this is helpful.

In the SEC, with the exception of Vanderbilt(1), others have been leaning more to JUCO, Mississippi State had 14 players directly from JUCO, one was a transfer from a 4yr school but was at a JUCO.

Due to eligibility changes and the direction baseball is going, IMHO this trend will increase.

JUCO provides a resource already equipped for the grind of college baseball season.

Here is a short list of direct hires, secondary transfers are tbd:

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

Hi U2L, my 2023 is very similar to your son academically.   Baseball metric wise also, minus 7 inches and 40lbs, LOL.   2023 throws harder but EV's a little less; similar foot speed.

We JUST had a family conversation about JUCOs last evening.  Previously my wife and I have hammered home to him that he should attend a 4 year college and do his best to find the right fit to reduce the chances of transferring.   We have the wherewithal for this and felt that this leads to the least tumultuous undergrad years.  At the risk of offending some, I've also held the snobby view that JUCOs are for less academically gifted kids or those parents who need to save a bit of money before their kid transfers to finish at a "regular" State school.

Admittedly my son knows quite a few kids who don't play baseball particularly very well and tell him they plan to "go JUCO first and then transfer in to play D1 baseball".   I'm talking about kids who throw 65-70 mph from the outfield, exit velo 75, and hit .200.   D1 baseball is a delusional pipe dream for them and they would never get into one of the JUCO baseball programs that have a high number of D1 transfers.  For them, I wish someone would sit down and give them a reality check.   This doesn't sound like your kid.

2023 is our oldest so this is all new ground for us.  I've now started to soften a bit on the concept of JUCO first.  Now I'm starting to think that it will all work out in life the way it is supposed to.   Aside from some random sniffing, 2023 has had no D1 schools interested in him.  And he can actually play a little: sophomore starting SS.  All conference; All academic team,  hit .450 this summer, yada yada.   But honestly I know he doesn't metric out like the top 10-15 postion players in the state.  He's in that next tier down.  I also know that come next summer a bunch of HA D3s will be interested in  him.

So... we had that talk last night that if he really wanted to try to play D1, I would be OK with him going JUCO; working hard on baseball and grades; and transferring to finish his degree.  I suspect he would not be able to transfer to an Ivy or whatever elite school, but I'm thinking that will be a-OK also.   Ultimately I've got to let go of the reins, let him live his life, and trust his life skills will ultimately put him on the right track.

Not exactly an answer but I hope this is helpful.

Here are some interesting articles:

You will need a subscription in order to view.

https://d1baseball.com/columns...-part-ii-recruiting/

https://d1baseball.com/columns...-3-roster-movements/

Transferring to a HA is going to be easier if there is baseball involved. It's an uphill battle to begin with, I would assume it would be even more difficult coming from a juco.

That being said, one of the great things about jucos are their partnerships with state schools and local universities. Over a certain GPA you get _______ money at _________ Univ. Kill it at the juco academically and leverage the high GPA into academic money and go to school for as cheap as possible.

If sports were not an option for mine I would recommend they start at a juco and transfer to the state school. Get out of there with as little debt as possible.

@used2lurk posted:

2 best options for son on table today are:  

(1)  HA-D3 that does not have athletic spots (like the NESCAC does) where he is not essentially guaranteed acceptance but coach said wants him and will walk his application to admissions with zero guarantees. Counselor at kid's school is fairly confident son will get accepted.                                                                                   

(2)  JUCO in Iowa in a strong conference with that consistently places kids in D1 (I think 10+ from last years team) and other 4 year schools with what appears to be a great group of coaches. Son knows a couple of kids on the team this year and will most likely know a few more that would attend next year. They have offered him the most they are able to offer athletically (that is our understanding) and have not put a time frame on that offer.

I am thankful we do not have to make any decisions today but will likely have to make first decision by the end of this month (potentially to ED to HA-D3). Son visits school for second time later this week to watch a practice, meet assistant/hitting coach, meet with admissions, take regular student campus tour, and show campus to mom (important!!!). Son continues to eat, sleep, lift, repeat while waiting for the go ahead to start to hit again.

used2lurk,

Honestly, I'm not crazy about the wording of (1) above.  I understand no HA guarantees admission verbally, but through their actions you can determine where your son sits on their list.   Was a pre-read done, and what additional information was gleaned from the pre-read?  It sounds to me like the Coach is not offering your son a "slot" (or his slots are spoken for), but he is putting some skin in the game by walking his application to admissions as a strong "tip".    Maybe additional information can be gathered with your upcoming visit, and a stop to the Financial Aid office to get some numbers to work through.  I think you have to work this opportunity more to get more details.  Your son is probably feeling a little uneasy about their process because it is not familiar.  That is totally understandable.

(2) JUCO offers sounds strong and familiar to your son as he knows players on the team.  They haven't put a time frame on that offer YET, but it is coming and that is a good thing because they are thinking about your son.

What does your son intend to study in undergrad?   Will a masters or advanced degree be needed if his college baseball plans don't blossom?  Something to think about.   We went into every college conversation with an understanding with our kids.    In our family, my son's got to pick their undergrad colleges.   Mom and Dad picked up 50% tuition, room & board.  We provided a car and insurance.   Grad school was entirely on them.   My two oldest sons are engineers and wanted their outstanding student loans paid off within 2-years....mission accomplished.  My youngest is in the Army and Uncle Sam is paying that off through his military service.   My point is that it is great to think about a 40 year plan but it has to start with a solid 4-5 year plan up front.       

As always, JMO   

I wonder how many kids who go JuCo with the plan being to go D1 in a year or two actually get to D1. I’m guessing a majority of dreams don’t come true.

Part of the JuCo to D1 philosophy has to be recognizing if it’s a legitimate objective or a delusional dream.

I wonder how many kids got to JuCos to discover they can’t get on the field.

(1) HA-D3 that does not have athletic spots (like the NESCAC does) where he is not essentially guaranteed acceptance but coach said wants him and will walk his application to admissions with zero guarantees. Counselor at kid's school is fairly confident son will get accepted.

@fenwaysouth posted:

used2lurk,

Honestly, I'm not crazy about the wording of (1) above.  I understand no HA guarantees admission verbally, but through their actions you can determine where your son sits on their list.   Was a pre-read done, and what additional information was gleaned from the pre-read?  It sounds to me like the Coach is not offering your son a "slot" (or his slots are spoken for), but he is putting some skin in the game by walking his application to admissions as a strong "tip".   

Fenway, I could be wrong but I read this to mean that the coach did not have  "tips" at all, so the school is among those like Caltech, Mudd, Chicago (?), MIT (?) where athletes receive no help getting in.  If that's the case, there's really nothing a ED applicant can do, other than have a good backup plan and hope for the best.  Juco would be a highly unusual backup plan for a Caltech (for example) applicant, but in this case  maybe it's the right  one, if the kid is totally comfortable with both possible results --  if he is accepted, and if he is not.

@fenwaysouth & @JCG the school that my son is visiting for 2nd time this week does not have slots or tips. Coach can/will talk to admissions and has stated emphatically that he would love to have son play for him. Coach tells no one it is 100% but feels that kids whose ETR (early transcript read) slots them in top 1/3 of kids who were admitted last year can feel fairly confident they will be admitted. My son is in middle 1/3 of admitted students from last year. School is now test optional so his 33 (even if he retested to 35 which is 5 cumulative points higher on any of the 4 parts of test). 2 commits (cant recall if 2021's or 2022's) have 36 ACT's (test optional but apparently matters to admissions if it is a 36) and 4.0 gpa's and are comfortably in the top 1/3.

My son played with used2lurk’s son at the AZ Fall Classic last year and I can attest he is a very good ball player with the requisite physical tools. Seems injury was a big issue in this process. I too was really worried about injury this past Summer. The ’22 class had no rising Junior Summer or Fall camp opportunities in 2020 so the ’21 Summer was make or break. It seems to me that the Juco route and the HA are mutually exclusive since one rarely leads to the other. As another poster mentioned your son really has to decide between a largely baseball Juco route which can lead to great 4 year schools with good academics -- think Purdue, Santa Clara, Rutgers – or developing a process to continue to pursue HA. To put some color on the HA requirements my son was told his 1470 SAT and 4.0 with 12 APs was not good enough at Hopkins, Cal Tech, MIT and borderline at U of Chicago. After a retake yielded 1550 Hopkins was willing to provide a likely letter but the rest were still underwhelming in their confidence that he'd be accepted. That said all the Nescac schools were fine w a 1470 but w baseball skills in their process this group is quite different from the “no guarantee” schools. As a parent you have to know your son’s motivations. Mine is 95% baseball and 5% academics so I supported his pursuit of Juco and lower end academic schools that had solid baseball development. The goal was to find both (HA and good baseball) but if that did not happen plan B was solid baseball. Understanding where your son falls on this simple 2-way scale is very important IMO. Lastly I would encourage your son to find as many Early Action HA schools with solid baseball to apply. Contact the coaches at each school and let them know he is applying EA. Your son is not bound w EA and it may yield some good options w no downside other than application time/effort. Every one of these HA D3 coaches would be thrilled w a no slot, 6-4 C that can run/hit/play to fall into their program. Buena suerte.

@used2lurk & @JCG - thanks for the clarification.  I read that backwards.

My son's metrics were in line with @GIANTS_FAN's son but Hopkins, CalTech, MIT or Univ of Chicago were never a serious option.  The fit was too high academically and too low athletically.  He was getting love from Ivys, D1 mid-majors and NESCAC schools...these were much better fits academically and athletically.   My son's motivations were 90% engineering and 10% baseball.  Professional baseball was never an option, and he selected college accordingly.  If that D3 HA coach has very good summer college baseball connections there may be an opportunity for your son to play in some of the best summer leagues if he can produce.

My daughter in law had perfect SAT scores and was denied at MIT.  Female engineer and recruited soccer player, go figure.  A friend's son was a recruited baseball player at MIT...a catcher.  I was told he had perfect SATs and was also an engineer.  Obviously he was admitted.   Sometimes admission is arbitrary, and you don't know what they are looking for.    Yes, I understand it is very tough at some of these schools, and you can't count on much especially with Admissions.   Your son is a bright young man.   He'll figure it out what is most important to him. 

Good luck.

@RJM posted:

I wonder how many kids who go JuCo with the plan being to go D1 in a year or two actually get to D1. I’m guessing a majority of dreams don’t come true.

Part of the JuCo to D1 philosophy has to be recognizing if it’s a legitimate objective or a delusional dream.

I wonder how many kids got to JuCos to discover they can’t get on the field.

This is one of the reasons I always shake my head when people blindly advise players to go the juco route.

Since coming on this board I've paid attention to the local jucos, who are generally considered pretty good and followed where they place their kids. Mostly branch campus D2s and D3s with some lower level D1s sprinkled in. Some of the better 2 year programs will get P5 dropdowns from kids local to the area but as far as kids moving onto D1s, I don't see it enough. I use the local programs as a measuring stick because once you leave the Texas, Ga, Fl, Iowa, OK circuit I would imagine this is what most juco ball looks like. Decent enough, but the idea the there are all these D1 prospects across the board seems unrealistic.

And if you're going to live at a juco cross country, the odds seem better at a lower level D1/D3 than they do at say San Jacinto or McLennan.

But more importantly if you don't have the baseball chops to hang at a juco, your transfer options are going to be limited. Nothing wrong with attending a juco, but if there are plans that don't involve baseball, there may be less than you would like. Makes transferring to the HA or private more difficult.

@PABaseball posted:

This is one of the reasons I always shake my head when people blindly advise players to go the juco route.

Since coming on this board I've paid attention to the local jucos, who are generally considered pretty good and followed where they place their kids. Mostly branch campus D2s and D3s with some lower level D1s sprinkled in. Some of the better 2 year programs will get P5 dropdowns from kids local to the area but as far as kids moving onto D1s, I don't see it enough. I use the local programs as a measuring stick because once you leave the Texas, Ga, Fl, Iowa, OK circuit I would imagine this is what most juco ball looks like. Decent enough, but the idea the there are all these D1 prospects across the board seems unrealistic.

And if you're going to live at a juco cross country, the odds seem better at a lower level D1/D3 than they do at say San Jacinto or McLennan.

But more importantly if you don't have the baseball chops to hang at a juco, your transfer options are going to be limited. Nothing wrong with attending a juco, but if there are plans that don't involve baseball, there may be less than you would like. Makes transferring to the HA or private more difficult.

KISS Method,  for now lets remove baseball from the conversation

How many students transfer from community college to HA/Private?

Which schools have the necessary programs to qualify for said transfers?

IMHO, once it is understood which schools have academic programs linked to particular HA's and private, then discussion can begin with respects to baseball.

Does the community college have baseball program?

etc.

@PABaseball posted:

This is one of the reasons I always shake my head when people blindly advise players to go the juco route.

Since coming on this board I've paid attention to the local jucos, who are generally considered pretty good and followed where they place their kids. Mostly branch campus D2s and D3s with some lower level D1s sprinkled in. Some of the better 2 year programs will get P5 dropdowns from kids local to the area but as far as kids moving onto D1s, I don't see it enough. I use the local programs as a measuring stick because once you leave the Texas, Ga, Fl, Iowa, OK circuit I would imagine this is what most juco ball looks like. Decent enough, but the idea the there are all these D1 prospects across the board seems unrealistic.

And if you're going to live at a juco cross country, the odds seem better at a lower level D1/D3 than they do at say San Jacinto or McLennan.

But more importantly if you don't have the baseball chops to hang at a juco, your transfer options are going to be limited. Nothing wrong with attending a juco, but if there are plans that don't involve baseball, there may be less than you would like. Makes transferring to the HA or private more difficult.

Things are different in different places.  I follow the local Juco in the Northern California town where we raised our kids.  Just off the top of my head I can name players who transferred in recent years to:  Cal Berkeley, Michigan, Arizona State, UC San Diego, UC Riverside, Houston, UC Davis, Nevada, Cal Poly, U Conn, various D2 Cal States, and a bunch of private D2 and NAIA schools few here have ever heard of.  So, some very HA publics and some not so much.  As for HA D3 schools, not one that I can think of, though my 2017 son's HA D3 did have one Juco transfer in during his time there.

@JCG posted:

Things are different in different places.  I follow the local Juco in the Northern California town where we raised our kids.  Just off the top of my head I can name players who transferred in recent years to:  Cal Berkeley, Michigan, Arizona State, UC San Diego, UC Riverside, Houston, UC Davis, Nevada, Cal Poly, U Conn, various D2 Cal States, and a bunch of private D2 and NAIA schools few here have ever heard of.  So, some very HA publics and some not so much.  As for HA D3 schools, not one that I can think of, though my 2017 son's HA D3 did have one Juco transfer in during his time there.

@JCG I would agree, the CCCAA is different beast than NJCAA, but there are some similarities.

What does the school offer academically that aligns with the 4 yr schools.

So the question that one would ask the faculty, is where do you students normally transfer to?

The community college should have that information.

Layer that information with the baseball program can potentially provide more insights about what might be possible.

Below is a snapshot for 2021.  We are still in the process of reconciling transfers.

@GIANTS_FAN after looking at your profile I am 99% I remember you and your son. I also am 90% that I might have told you about this great place. Congrats to your son and family on finding a great place to attend and play ball after what looked like (via a little research and finding in the social media universe) a great spring/summer.

So many of the things you said in your post were 100% spot on to our experience and our process seems very similar (except for the injury part). I shortened your post in quotes below and highlighted in bold some that are especially relevant imo and with our kid. Development matters a ton to my son wherever he goes and that is a MAJOR part of what he wants to experience at any college. Academics matter and are a motivation but it is not the only/primary driving factor (different strokes for different folks or folks families) for him or us as parents.

@GIANTS_FAN posted:

My son played with used2lurk’s son at the AZ Fall Classic last year and I can attest he is a very good ball player with the requisite physical tools. Seems injury was a big issue in this process. I too was really worried about injury this past Summer. The ’22 class had no rising Junior Summer or Fall camp opportunities in 2020 so the ’21 Summer was make or break. It seems to me that the Juco route and the HA are mutually exclusive since one rarely leads to the other... As a parent you have to know your son’s motivations. Mine is 95% baseball and 5% academics so I supported his pursuit of Juco and lower end academic schools that had solid baseball development. The goal was to find both (HA and good baseball) but if that did not happen plan B was solid baseball. Understanding where your son falls on this simple 2-way scale is very important IMO. Lastly I would encourage your son to find as many Early Action HA schools with solid baseball to apply. Contact the coaches at each school and let them know he is applying EA. Your son is not bound w EA and it may yield some good options w no downside other than application time/effort. Every one of these HA D3 coaches would be thrilled w a no slot, 6-4 C that can run/hit/play to fall into their program. Buena suerte.

This Early Action HA idea is something that I have thought about but this confirms that it could yield some very favorable options. This environment for 2022's is challenging and has changed significantly from the 21's to the 22's and will probably change again with 23's. Covid and an extra year of eligibility definitely impacted incoming 21's. That plus covid crap plus the no wait transfer portal and rosters beginning to slim all impact 22's. All of that PLUS who knows will impact 23's...

@JCG it feels like the California college public education system as a whole is different than a lot of the country and your insights are relevant but especially for kids with CA options.

@CollegebaseballInsights your additions to this thread are helpful. Your twitter insights are all I have needed so far but will most likely be subscribing for a couple of months when it is time to make decisions for us. The CCCAA is relevant for CA folks but I am guessing that chart would be helpful for Midwest people to see what the ICCCAC conference looks like compared to CCCAA and the Texas JUCO. People here are pretty serious about baseball and from what @PABaseball says the JUCO in his area might not be what it is like in Iowa, Texas, Cali, Kansas, Florida. I know that almost no one goes to JUCO that is serious about baseball here in Minnesota. They all go to IA, NE, IL, or beyond.

One other place I have found some info is the PBR Juco twitter and prep baseball report JUCO section. Lots of metrics and some video to watch/compare to your future college baseball.

Again, thanks to all for the great contributions to this...I hope that it is helpful for many now and in the future.

@used2lurk posted:

@GIANTS_FAN after looking at your profile I am 99% I remember you and your son. I also am 90% that I might have told you about this great place. Congrats to your son and family on finding a great place to attend and play ball after what looked like (via a little research and finding in the social media universe) a great spring/summer.

So many of the things you said in your post were 100% spot on to our experience and our process seems very similar (except for the injury part). I shortened your post in quotes below and highlighted in bold some that are especially relevant imo and with our kid. Development matters a ton to my son wherever he goes and that is a MAJOR part of what he wants to experience at any college. Academics matter and are a motivation but it is not the only/primary driving factor (different strokes for different folks or folks families) for him or us as parents.

This Early Action HA idea is something that I have thought about but this confirms that it could yield some very favorable options. This environment for 2022's is challenging and has changed significantly from the 21's to the 22's and will probably change again with 23's. Covid and an extra year of eligibility definitely impacted incoming 21's. That plus covid crap plus the no wait transfer portal and rosters beginning to slim all impact 22's. All of that PLUS who knows will impact 23's...

@JCG it feels like the California college public education system as a whole is different than a lot of the country and your insights are relevant but especially for kids with CA options.

@CollegebaseballInsights your additions to this thread are helpful. Your twitter insights are all I have needed so far but will most likely be subscribing for a couple of months when it is time to make decisions for us. The CCCAA is relevant for CA folks but I am guessing that chart would be helpful for Midwest people to see what the ICCCAC conference looks like compared to CCCAA and the Texas JUCO. People here are pretty serious about baseball and from what @PABaseball says the JUCO in his area might not be what it is like in Iowa, Texas, Cali, Kansas, Florida. I know that almost no one goes to JUCO that is serious about baseball here in Minnesota. They all go to IA, NE, IL, or beyond.

One other place I have found some info is the PBR Juco twitter and prep baseball report JUCO section. Lots of metrics and some video to watch/compare to your future college baseball.

Again, thanks to all for the great contributions to this...I hope that it is helpful for many now and in the future.

@user2lurk

We are in the process of developing insights more relevant for the JUCO experience and Team Roster Turnover.  Tentative go-live is Nov 1.

Bottom line, transfer data is incomplete on many levels, I would compare it to genealogy research and  ancestry.com, where depending on state, county and ethnicity information may or may not be available.

E.G. the 1890 census was destroyed thus you have to use other information in order to fill in the blanks.

Here are some preliminary numbers of Region 11, all JUCO meeting the 27 member threshold have been verified and posted on twitter.

Note, some of the early twitter do not account for players with multiple transfers.

E.G  2yr -> 4yr -> 4yr

IWC (2019)->Ohio State(2020) -> Clemson (2021)

Currently, IWC gets in 2020, they should also get credit in 2021.

@used2lurk posted:

@GIANTS_FAN after looking at your profile I am 99% I remember you and your son. I also am 90% that I might have told you about this great place. Congrats to your son and family on finding a great place to attend and play ball after what looked like (via a little research and finding in the social media universe) a great spring/summer.

So many of the things you said in your post were 100% spot on to our experience and our process seems very similar (except for the injury part). I shortened your post in quotes below and highlighted in bold some that are especially relevant imo and with our kid. Development matters a ton to my son wherever he goes and that is a MAJOR part of what he wants to experience at any college. Academics matter and are a motivation but it is not the only/primary driving factor (different strokes for different folks or folks families) for him or us as parents.

This Early Action HA idea is something that I have thought about but this confirms that it could yield some very favorable options. This environment for 2022's is challenging and has changed significantly from the 21's to the 22's and will probably change again with 23's. Covid and an extra year of eligibility definitely impacted incoming 21's. That plus covid crap plus the no wait transfer portal and rosters beginning to slim all impact 22's. All of that PLUS who knows will impact 23's...

@JCG it feels like the California college public education system as a whole is different than a lot of the country and your insights are relevant but especially for kids with CA options.

@CollegebaseballInsights your additions to this thread are helpful. Your twitter insights are all I have needed so far but will most likely be subscribing for a couple of months when it is time to make decisions for us. The CCCAA is relevant for CA folks but I am guessing that chart would be helpful for Midwest people to see what the ICCCAC conference looks like compared to CCCAA and the Texas JUCO. People here are pretty serious about baseball and from what @PABaseball says the JUCO in his area might not be what it is like in Iowa, Texas, Cali, Kansas, Florida. I know that almost no one goes to JUCO that is serious about baseball here in Minnesota. They all go to IA, NE, IL, or beyond.

One other place I have found some info is the PBR Juco twitter and prep baseball report JUCO section. Lots of metrics and some video to watch/compare to your future college baseball.

Again, thanks to all for the great contributions to this...I hope that it is helpful for many now and in the future.

@used2lurk  I'm going to assume @PABaseball is referring to Region 19 (NJ, PA and DE),  there are no D1 JUCOs.  The closest D1 will be Harford, which is located in MD (near Ripken).  Although this was a D1, the old coach ran it like a D2 from a scholarship perspective. Students would procure housing before enrolling, thus get indistrict tuition.  But the facilities were great (lol).

Note, there has been some chatter over the years that Rowan University might reclass to D2 or D1, they have aligned with Rowan of South Jersey (used to be name Gloucester) and Rowan of SJ-Cumberland.  Note, there is definitely enough talent in South Jersey, PA and Delaware to get a feeder system.  The move would be similar to Stony Brook.

The question would be would any of the JUCOs follow suit are move to a d2 or d1 status.  Note, I believe most JUCOs with the exception of Lackawanna only offer off campus dwellings.

These are preliminary stats for top, Lackawanna and Mercer have been verified.

I think those of us who push the juco route are normally from the south or midwest.  That does not apply to jucos outside of those regions.  The problem with the juco route in the south or midwest is if you are not already a D1 type player it is hard to get into the top jucos in those areas.