What it Sounds Like to Lose Your Scholarship

I don't think this article surprises a single person on this board.

I read the entire article. As a whole Natick High School is typically strong in sports. I don’t know about field hockey. It’s also, on average as upscale community with an average household income of 125K.

What I see is a coddled, hot shot high school player who, along with her parents didn’t understand it’s a big, bad word of competition at the next level. The girl was told there was a significant gap between her talent level and much of the team. The coach advised her to transfer if she wanted to keep playing. She ignored the coach determined to prove she could close the gap. She failed.

i doubt the small scholarship had a significant impact on family finances. Natick is a money town. The family did host four foreign players over Thanksgiving.

If I was the girl in the article I would be embarrassed to have this story written about me including pictures. It comes off as a, “Woe is me. I didn’t know it’s a big, bad competitive world out there” story.

Do coaches sometimes bend reality during recruiting? Sure. But do athletes and parents hear what is being said or what they prefer to hear? It doesn’t dawn on some athletes everyone at the next level is going to be extremely talented.

A couple of weeks ago the Harvard women’s hockey coach of thirty years resigned under pressure. The story was similar. Lots of pressure from the coach, players cut and feeling misled. To me, this is a case of, “Who can I target now to make a name for myself?” writing

From the article. It makes me wonder if some parents believe female coaches can’t treat their daughters like anything else than the precious cupcake they see her  …

Weinberg, citing an increasing number of complaints nationally against female coaches, referred the Globe to Thomas Newkirk, an Iowa-based lawyer who believes gender bias has factored in the trend. Newkirk said he has identified about 225 female coaches across the country who have acted no differently from male coaches but whose careers have been damaged because of gender bias after complaints by female athletes.

Newkirk, who said he is not serving as Weinberg’s attorney, described the complaints from her former players as “a minor deal being blown out of proportion.”

SUMS IT UP RIGHT HERE …

“The idea that a Division 1 athlete, an adult of 18 to 22 years of age who knows that things change, didn’t get a scholarship or as much of a scholarship as she hoped to get is going to the press and filing a complaint is crazy,” Newkirk said.

Note: My daughter had issues with the team and her coach freshman year. She quickly decided her options were deal with it or walk. She dealt with it. Someone told me she should have gone over the coach’s head to the AD. I thought, “There’s someone who never played college sports.”

@RJM, I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but my issue is reconciling what you aside here: "What I see is a coddled, hot shot high school player who, along with her parents didn’t understand it’s a big, bad word of competition at the next level." with this from the article:
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Peck and her father, Steve, said Weinberg told them during the recruiting process that she envisioned Peck becoming her starting center defender. Everything Weinberg told them was so appealing, they said, that Peck verbally accepted Weinberg’s offer of a 30 percent athletic scholarship for four years.

However, the night before Peck signed her national letter-of-intent, Weinberg asked her to restructure her scholarship so she could use some of the money to launch a summer program for the team.   Under the revised terms, Peck agreed to accept 10 percent of a full scholarship each of her first two years, then 50 percent each of her last two years.

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Assuming what they said is true - and the AD seems to corroborate this bec he said: “We recognize that Coach Weinberg’s communication around student-athlete recruitment, financial aid considerations, and roster retention was not as clear as it could have been,” - the question is: is it really alright for the coach to promise all these and set all these expectation when that is not the reality?  I know we always say that the student and parent should have done their homework by going to sites like this forum.  But does their lack of homework justify the coach setting false expectation?

It's one thing if the coaches said: "we can only promise you scholarship for 1 year.  You have to compete.  If you are able to compete, here's what 4 years may look like.  But if you don't develop and there's a large talent gap, you could lose it after a year".

If a coach promised 4 yrs worth of scholarship, it is not unreasonable for the kid and the parents to assume that what the coach is saying is that I am investing in your kid.  This means if there's a talent gap and she's not able to compete, I will work with her and coach her up.  I need to do this bec I am committing 4 yrs to her.

“Peck and her father, Steve, said Weinberg told them during the recruiting process that she envisioned Peck becoming her starting center defender.”

What coach recruits a player they don’t believe has the ability to become a starter. Coaches recruit an entire team of players they hope become starters. Not everyone becomes a starter. It’s mathematically impossible.

Parents and players have to know at a school that doesn’t offer full four year rides guaranteed up front in writing, scholarships are negotiable from year to year.

Coaches depend on D1 players they tell won’t get on the field to transfer someplace they can play and avoid this mess. Why would the player wants to stay if she’s not going to play. It’s not as if UMass is Harvard.

@RJM posted:

Parents and players have to know at a school that doesn’t offer full four year rides guaranteed up front in writing, scholarships are negotiable from year to year.

Again, the coach is saying things like:

"Everything Weinberg told them was so appealing, they said, that Peck verbally accepted Weinberg’s offer of a 30 percent athletic scholarship for four years."

"Peck agreed to accept 10 percent of a full scholarship each of her first two years, then 50 percent each of her last two years."

Should they have done their homework and went to sites like this forum to ask questions?  Yes.  Does that justify the coach communicating these promises and expectation?  If the answer is "the coach can say whatever they want, and it's up to the parents and kids to do their homework and know better", and "buyer beware", I think this is one of the issue that people are saying is what's wrong with college athletics - which leads to the need for transfer portal.

On the flip side, imagine a world where the coach lives up to their promise and commitment, and where they have to work with the athlete to develop them bec of their commitment.  Or, imagine a world where the coach is very up front and clear on the expectation.  Is this too unreasonable?

I was wondering how the transfer portal was affecting female sports.  Thanks for the article.  My first reaction was ‘tough sheeet’ but there are other points in the article that do make me feel like it’s a rough situation.  But, in the end, the family and player  agreed to a restructuring of the scholarship and then got the ax from the team.  If she stays at the school, does she keep that scholarship?  

@atlnon posted:

Again, the coach is saying things like:

"Everything Weinberg told them was so appealing, they said, that Peck verbally accepted Weinberg’s offer of a 30 percent athletic scholarship for four years."

"Peck agreed to accept 10 percent of a full scholarship each of her first two years, then 50 percent each of her last two years."

Should they have done their homework and went to sites like this forum to ask questions?  Yes.  Does that justify the coach communicating these promises and expectation?  If the answer is "the coach can say whatever they want, and it's up to the parents and kids to do their homework and know better", and "buyer beware", I think this is one of the issue that people are saying is what's wrong with college athletics - which leads to the need for transfer portal.

On the flip side, imagine a world where the coach lives up to their promise and commitment, and where they have to work with the athlete to develop them bec of their commitment.  Or, imagine a world where the coach is very up front and clear on the expectation.  Is this too unreasonable?

How many players would commit if told there’s about a 25% they see the field?  To be told you can win a starting position is true. A player, along with the parent has to become educated on what is being said and what it means.

I’m guessing Dylan Crews was told he’s the shortstop (before moving to center) and lead off hitter if he commits. Other players were told they have an opportunity start.

Players have to hear what’s being said instead of putting the best possible spin on it in their minds.

Back to field hockey I’m guessing a player perceived to be good enough to be recruited by a top twenty-five would rather play elsewhere than give up the sport. She should received a lot of calls going into the portal. Unless the article is a red flag she’s a problem. It’s not a good idea to burn a top level coach publicly.

The girl is a whiner. I found another article. She had a sports lawyer ghost write an article on her behalf. She’s in full attack mode. How mentally weak is she?

Transferring was always an option. But why would I continue doing this sport when someone has ruined my trust with all people in athletics and ruined the one sport and hobby, I put my life into?

I’m guessing she might have trouble if she changes her mind about transferring. She’s gone full blitz on a high profile coach. She’s whining. She’s a walking red flag if she wants to play again.

Poor precious petunia! Coaches would likely think there’s a better adjusted player to recruit.

What my daughter got out of college softball was meeting adversity, facing it and finding a workable solution. It made her tough as nails. It’s played well in the courtroom. When male attorneys refer to a female attorney as a bitch   what it means is, if she were a guy I would call her a mentally tough adversary.

Wow.  There certainly seems like enough blame to go around.  Coach did an awful job of managing expectations and the scholarship, and the recruit had a unrealistic idea of her talent level.   Seems to me, I've read hundreds of threads on HSBBWeb that tell of very similiar stories and situations that did not lead to newspaper articles, ghost writers, and legal action.  Apparently this family feels the need to throw some hard earned cash at the problem.  As is typical, only the lawyers benefit from frivolous legal action.

PS...I'm channeling my inner Joan Rivers.   She is saying ..."oh just grow up!"

@fenwaysouth posted:

Wow.  There certainly seems like enough blame to go around.  Coach did an awful job of managing expectations and the scholarship, and the recruit had a unrealistic idea of her talent level.   Seems to me, I've read hundreds of threads on HSBBWeb that tell of very similiar stories and situations that did not lead to newspaper articles, ghost writers, and legal action.  Apparently this family feels the need to throw some hard earned cash at the problem.  As is typical, only the lawyers benefit from frivolous legal action.

PS...I'm channeling my inner Joan Rivers.   She is saying ..."oh just grow up!"

As I recall, that wasn’t the last thing Joan said.

@RJM posted:

The girl is a whiner. I found another article. She had a sports lawyer ghost right an article on her behalf. She’s in full attack mode. How mentally weak is she?

Transferring was always an option. But why would I continue doing this sport when someone has ruined my trust with all people in athletics and ruined the one sport and hobby, I put my life into?

I’m guessing she might have trouble if she changes her mind about transferring. She’s gone full blitz on a high profile coach. She’s whining. She’s a walking red flag if she wants to play again.

Poor precious petunia! Coaches would likely think there’s a better adjusted player to recruit.

What my daughter got out of college softball was meeting adversity, facing it and finding a workable solution. It made her tough as nails. It’s played well in the courtroom. When male attorneys refer to a female attorney as a bitch   what it means is, if she were a guy I would call her a mentally tough adversary.

I do agree with this part wholeheartedly.  This is definitely not something my family would have done.  Even if the coach was in the wrong in setting incorrect expectations and giving false promises, burning bridges like this can only lead to more issues.  If I'm another coach, I would stay away from this family regardless of what the previous coach did wrong.

Another thing in the article that was interesting.  It says both parents are school teachers?  School teachers earn that much to sink in lawyers to fight something like this?

The average Natick teacher’s salary is 65K. The typical range is 55K to 78K. Chances are parents of a twenty year old are forty-five to fifty-five and likely on the upper end of the pay scale. Between to two parents they likely have a household income of over 140K.

Part of me wonders if there was classic bait and switch going on *knowing* the parents financial situation *and* the girl's love for the sport / school. If they're both teachers perhaps there was a feeling of someone "in the profession" wouldn't make a fuss... What they miscalculated was the family was willing / able to get the press involved as well as preferring to pay a lawyer when they got backed into the corner. One has to believe there's more stories like this out there - the fact the were able to get the Globe involved is "interesting"...  In any case, lots of wrong going on and hard to point fingers. It's sad - the college coach was trying to get away from a bad decision and got caught.

As an aside, this is a classic example why parents and players are a pain to their coaches and sports officials at HS and lower events... My DiL coaches FH in HS at a competitive school and I've heard the parents ripping game officials - it's no different than our beloved sport. Extrapolate that to the money involved (quick check shows $33K/year tuition+room/board in state for UMass-Amherst) is about 1/2 the HA D3 in the same community...  In the long run Mo Vaughn was wrong, it *is* all about the money.

Change field hockey to baseball. Would there even be an article about it?

I don't care who's in the wrong. It's a hit piece. It's designed to invoke feelings about women bringing down women, and women being held back. But it's just subtle enough where it can be denied.

There are now seven players (off the top of my head) from our program who lost their scholarships in the past two years who have either

a. Been drafted

b. Start on a team who made the NCAA Tournament while we sat at home

An article didn't need to be written to make our HC look stupid, he's done that on his own.

@RJM posted:

What I see is a coddled, hot shot high school player who, along with her parents didn’t understand it’s a big, bad word of competition at the next level. The girl was told there was a significant gap between her talent level and much of the team. The coach advised her to transfer if she wanted to keep playing. She ignored the coach determined to prove she could close the gap. She failed.

She doesn't sound like a whiner to me.  She sounds like someone who wants to educate other sports families about the kind of thing that goes on.  I didn't read it as particularly about gender.  It's a family saying that they were misled by what the coach said.

If a coach recruits you, gives you a scholarship, and tells you you have the ability to play for the team, why would you not believe her?  Once she got there she was told there was a gap between her and the other players?  I mean, come on.  Why recruit her, then?

People who read this site have heard these stories about baseball players.  Many people have not.  You can say "do your research," but you have to know what to ask.  Stories like this might help you figure that out.

I think she's brave to tell it, but I also agree she has killed her sports career.

Some of the old timers here might recall my daughter's plight.  She was pretty good and most of the schools in the MVC and OVC wanted her.  One coach began telling other coaches that he had her and that she had verballed.  In fact, on an unofficial visit, he had her put on a jersey and took pictures of her in the jersey.  At the time, we didn't think anything about it.  Players in that program started emailing her and we went down for several games.  She spent the night with some of those players.  With less than two months before the NLI, the HC came to watch her play in a pretty big tournament.  She had an exceptional tournament where she hit 4 or 5 home runs and won two games in the circle.  He told me he was going to call on Monday with his final offer.  He had led us to believe that she was going to get 60% so that caught me off guard.  We have relatives in that community so she would have played in front of family all of the time.  60% was a great offer.  On Monday, he called and said that he had 40%.  We were devastated.  I say we because my daughter had grown so fond of the girls in the program and our family was counting on her playing at this university.  I told him she had multiple offers for more than that amount from schools in his conference.  He said that he was going to sign two of her TB teammates and the three of them would be a great foundation for his program.  She was getting 40% and they were getting 30% each. 

He lied to us so she went to another school.  One of those other two was never eligible.  My daughter hit a couple of home runs against him and he remarked to me that he had made a terrible mistake.  He was gone in two years. 

@anotherparent posted:

She doesn't sound like a whiner to me.  She sounds like someone who wants to educate other sports families about the kind of thing that goes on.  I didn't read it as particularly about gender.  It's a family saying that they were misled by what the coach said.

If a coach recruits you, gives you a scholarship, and tells you you have the ability to play for the team, why would you not believe her?  Once she got there she was told there was a gap between her and the other players?  I mean, come on.  Why recruit her, then?

People who read this site have heard these stories about baseball players.  Many people have not.  You can say "do your research," but you have to know what to ask.  Stories like this might help you figure that out.

I think she's brave to tell it, but I also agree she has killed her sports career.

Recruiting is based on projection. Top level players are offered and commit two or three years before they hit the college campus. Some players don’t continue to develop on the track the college coach expects. Regardless every sport has more players on the roster than can get on the field. Both situations create an environment the player isn’t going to survive.

What recreated problems is this particular athlete is a wilting, precious petunia. For the first time in her life she was told she’s not all that and a bag of chips. Most athletes who commit to a top twenty-five program and fail to stick find the next level down to compete. In this player’s case it could be many other D1 programs or a top ranked D2. This whining petunia whines one coach destroyed her love for the game. She didn’t love the game. She’s mentally weak.

After the recent hit job on the Harvard women’s hockey coach that got her fired this is just another journalistic hit job. There’s nothing to see here except a whining, precious petunia who is too Mentally weak to come up with a real solution. I have no respect for her. Neither will many other colleges field hockey coach should she change her mind about transferring.

Nothing was exposed in this article except naivety to readers who don’t know the recruiting jungle process.

There’s nothing different here than getting hired in the real world, not doing your job well and getting fired. Welcome to the real world Miss Little Precious Petunia.

@CoachB25 posted:

Some of the old timers here might recall my daughter's plight.  She was pretty good and most of the schools in the MVC and OVC wanted her.  One coach began telling other coaches that he had her and that she had verballed.  In fact, on an unofficial visit, he had her put on a jersey and took pictures of her in the jersey.  At the time, we didn't think anything about it.  Players in that program started emailing her and we went down for several games.  She spent the night with some of those players.  With less than two months before the NLI, the HC came to watch her play in a pretty big tournament.  She had an exceptional tournament where she hit 4 or 5 home runs and won two games in the circle.  He told me he was going to call on Monday with his final offer.  He had led us to believe that she was going to get 60% so that caught me off guard.  We have relatives in that community so she would have played in front of family all of the time.  60% was a great offer.  On Monday, he called and said that he had 40%.  We were devastated.  I say we because my daughter had grown so fond of the girls in the program and our family was counting on her playing at this university.  I told him she had multiple offers for more than that amount from schools in his conference.  He said that he was going to sign two of her TB teammates and the three of them would be a great foundation for his program.  She was getting 40% and they were getting 30% each.

He lied to us so she went to another school.  One of those other two was never eligible.  My daughter hit a couple of home runs against him and he remarked to me that he had made a terrible mistake.  He was gone in two years.

How come your daughter didn’t declare the first coach destroyed her love for the game and give up playing?

😀😀😀

@RJM posted:

There’s nothing different here than getting hired in the real world, not doing your job well and getting fired. Welcome to the real world Miss Little Precious Petunia.

Really?

"Since 2016, when Weinberg took over at UMass, 22 of the 42 freshmen who have joined her program have departed with eligibility remaining, including 15 who lasted two years or less. "

If I had this kind of attrition as a manager I'd lose my job...And I work in finance in NYC where you eat what you kill basically.

Regardless , the article isn't surprising, and personally I wouldn't take this route, but it's articles like this that hopefully cause more families to do their research and maybe some AD, and institutions to examine their practices.

It's great that people come here and learn form other's people's experiences, but the reality is that article probably has more views right now than this entire site gets in a year.

@RJM posted:

How come your daughter didn’t declare the first coach destroyed her love for the game and give up playing?

😀😀😀

Touché. Almost everyone that has played baseball (or any sport) has played for a bad coach. Part of the maturation of any athlete is learning to overcome obstacles - and many times the obstacle shows up in the form of your own coach. An athlete that is truly passionate, and loves the game, doesn’t often let one bad coach (experience) kill their desire to play the sport. I don’t know one high level athlete that at one time or another wasn’t misled (or worse) by a coach. I think it’s clear that this particular coach has issues but I’m with RJM on this one. College athletics are not for the faint of heart.

@nycdad posted:

Really?

"Since 2016, when Weinberg took over at UMass, 22 of the 42 freshmen who have joined her program have departed with eligibility remaining, including 15 who lasted two years or less. "

If I had this kind of attrition as a manager I'd lose my job...And I work in finance in NYC where you eat what you kill basically.

Regardless , the article isn't surprising, and personally I wouldn't take this route, but it's articles like this that hopefully cause more families to do their research and maybe some AD, and institutions to examine their practices.

It's great that people come here and learn form other's people's experiences, but the reality is that article probably has more views right now than this entire site gets in a year.

Yes, really! What do you know about field hockey? Or what research did you do before posting?

The 2022 UMass roster has 24 players. There are only 11 players on the field. Substitution is very limited.

Given UMass is a top 25 program I’m guessing everyone who commits considerers themselves to be an excellent player and expects to get on the field. The numbers say more than half will be wrong.

What a normal, well adjusted athlete would do when told they’re not needed in the program is find another D1 or ranked D2 program where they believe they have a better opportunity to get playing time.

A whining, precious petunia would claim one coach ruined their passion for the game. I’ve said all along if one coach can kill a player’s passion for a sport that athlete doesn’t really love the sport. They’re looking for someone to blame when they fail.

My first organized sport was LL baseball. My first bad coach was my first coach. It didn’t deter me from playing baseball or any other sport.

This was back when players had to make LL. LL was designed for age 10-12. A handful of 9’s could count as 10’s if they could make a team. At 9 I was one of four 9’s who made it.

My LL coach was an antisemite. He discovered I was Jewish. When he did he called my nothing but Kike. He threw BP harder to me and hit me at least once every BP. We didn’t have minimum playing time. I only played an inning in half the games. I only faced the best 12yo pitchers and struck out every time.

My father told me to suck it up. That’s the response you get from a WWII vet.

In our league when you made a team that was your team every year. I went back the next year for more abuse. Except this year a teammate told his father what was going on. His father turned in the coach. The coach was told to quit. An all star was born! No one was going to take baseball from me.

I think this attitude towards players that call coaches out is why no one does, and they continue….

@baseballhs posted:

I think this attitude towards players that call coaches out is why no one does, and they continue….

Call out a coach and you won’t be playing there. Transferring becomes an issue. The player is seen as a trouble maker. Only players in great demand can call out a coach. A player not good enough to be in the program  is a face in the crowd of talent.

@RJM posted:

There’s nothing different here than getting hired in the real world, not doing your job well and getting fired. Welcome to the real world Miss Little Precious Petunia.

Nope, I disagree.  Anyone who works at any job knows that you have to do your job or get fired.  That would apply to most parents.  And many jobs are not cut-throat one-wins-the-other-loses types of jobs.  Sure, toughness is great for a prosecutor, not so necessary for many other jobs.

Someone who has not been a college athlete may well NOT know that college sports also runs like a job.  Some of you who have posted played D1 baseball and/or coached for many years; sure, you guys do know how college sports works and could appropriately advise your children.

But many people have no idea at all.  That would be my family, which had no college athletes until my son.  I had no idea that college athletics ran like a cutthroat business (at least outside basketball and football) until I started reading this site. I assumed that a coach recruits the players he wants, based on ability and projection, and then is committed to training them to be the best they can be.

The things I've read about on this site, in the news, and especially that I've seen happen to kids I know, are pretty shocking.  During recruitment we took coaches at their word, and at the school my son picked, the coach's word was good, at least for my son.  Because of my reading here, I would have been less surprised if it had turned out badly, but I still would have been angry.

A bad experience with a coach is normal.  An experience that involves finances (scholarships) is precisely what the NCAA should (but doesn't) oversee.  Abusive coaches are in a different category; it's a real shame that all the experience taught you is that abuse is part of the process and if you don't suck it up you're a precious petunia.

@RJM posted:

The average Natick teacher’s salary is 65K. The typical range is 55K to 78K. Chances are parents of a twenty year old are forty-five to fifty-five and likely on the upper end of the pay scale. Between to two parents they likely have a household income of over 140K.

Alright, first off,  Natick is NOT an affluent town.  Sure, because of the value of land you can find high end neighborhoods in every suburb or country town in Massachusetts, but overall Natick is not Topsfield or Ipswich, etc.  Hardly.  Second, combined family income of 140K is nothing in the Northeast, it's at best low middle class.  I don't know where you get your concept of affluent from.

Finally, as if her parents situation financially has anything to do with being LIED to, and I applaud her for taking a stand.  It's not whining or being spoiled, it's saying Go F yourself for being a piece of... IF anything she's calling attention to what is done so that others can learn from her mistakes in trusting what coaches say.

You know what real victim mentality is, it's to complain about someone else actually standing up to something and saying they should just accept it like the rest of us or "grow up".

Maybe she should just learn to stay in her place.

Another Parent;

During one of our journey's with our American HS team to Korea [South] our coaches {MLB Scouts] were invited to observe a HS game. During the game a Korean player made an error. He was immediately removed from the game.

The Head Coach placed a 60 lb bag on the player's shoulders and he ran "up and down" the hill behind the dugout. In Japan and Korea HS Baseball, the Head Coach is #1.

Our American Coaches and players found their "A" game during our Goodwill Series.

Bob

My biggest issue with this whole conversation is the perspective and thinking that bec this is high level athletics and that coaches has mistreated athletes in the past (as evidenced by some of the stories shared here), that athletes should suck it up and accept any unfair mistreatment or false promises by coaches, and that they should learn from it and toughen up.  If they complain and let it affect their passion for the game, then it's their fault for being soft.

While I personally wouldn't have done what the family did in this article, and I think it's unwise at the very least, I don't think the inappropriateness of their response justifies or excuses coaches' unfair treatment and/or giving false promises/setting false expectations.  Yes, I very much agree that encountering trials and difficulties like these are opportunities for us to grow stronger and learn.  But this does not and should not be an excuse or justification for the mistreatment by coaches and giving false promises.

My daughter competed at high level gymnastics.  Not sure if you all followed the Karolyi and Larry Nassar stories.  The perspective and thinking that some are expressing in this discussion (that we should learn to accept any misbehavior by coaches bec it's high level athletics and it toughens up the athletes) was (and still is) very prevalent in gymnastics, even more so compared to baseball.  I won't go into all the details here but suffice to say that it took a lot of athletes like Emma Peck to speak up before the sports (and the general public) starts recognizing that there is a serious issue.

Unfortunately, it actually took sexual abuse to happen before people started believing the girls and looking into the coaching culture in gymnastics.  When gymnasts started speaking up 20 years ago about the mistreatment, the response for years is like the response in this conversation - "you are too soft", "this is high level athletics, what do you expect", "you are a precious petunia, suck it up".  When complaints turned from coaching abuse to sexual abuse, the girls and their families are told to stay quiet, that they must have misunderstood, that they will get blackballed if they continue to insist on pursuing their accusation.

To be clear, harsh coaching, coaching abuse/mistreatment, false promises and setting false expectation is different from sexual abuse.  But the culture of "suck it up", and "just accept the harsh coaching, or even mistreatment" bec this is high level athletics sets up the environment for some people to get away with these sexual abuse. BTW, a lot of these amazing high level gymnasts who has been mistreated and abused by their coaches for years did lose their passion for the sports.  If you hear their stories and see what they had to go through, I don't know how you can accuse them of being soft (or as precious petunias).

@HSDad22 posted:

Alright, first off,  Natick is NOT an affluent town.  Sure, because of the value of land you can find high end neighborhoods in every suburb or country town in Massachusetts, but overall Natick is not Topsfield or Ipswich, etc.  Hardly.  Second, combined family income of 140K is nothing in the Northeast, it's at best low middle class.  I don't know where you get your concept of affluent from.

Finally, as if her parents situation financially has anything to do with being LIED to, and I applaud her for taking a stand.  It's not whining or being spoiled, it's saying Go F yourself for being a piece of... IF anything she's calling attention to what is done so that others can learn from her mistakes in trusting what coaches say.

You know what real victim mentality is, it's to complain about someone else actually standing up to something and saying they should just accept it like the rest of us or "grow up".

Maybe she should just learn to stay in her place.

140K household income places a family in the top third percentile in Massachusetts (looked it up rather than swinging from the hip).  Tomorrow when I’m at a friend’s multi million dollar home overlooking Lake Cochituate in Natick I’ll inform him he lives in a blue collar town. He’ll be amused.

What this thread is really about is the abuse of power. Do coaches abuse their power on a regular basis? Yes. They do. You know who else does? Teachers, politicians, law enforcement officers, hospital administrators, doctors, lawyers, judges, Hollywood celebrities, professional athletes, corporate executives….and on and on. It’s human nature (unfortunately) for people in a position of power to abuse their authority from time to time. Does that make it okay? No, of course not. But it part of the life struggle that all of us deal with. Everyone should be honest and truthful in all of their dealings. But we all know that to be a completely unrealistic expectation. At some point you have to understand that caveat emptor applies to almost everything. Whether you are buying a car or signing a scholarship letter. Personally I find it hard to believe that, if the behavior of the coach in question was habitual, it wasn’t well known among players, coaches, and administrators associated with that sport.
IMO half the fault lies with the player and her family. Just my two cents - and I am a player’s advocate.

@adbono posted:

IMO half the fault lies with the player and her family. Just my two cents - and I am a player’s advocate.

I don't disagree or dispute that the athlete and her family has some responsibility to should have known better, and to have responded more appropriately.  What I keep trying to say is that anything they did wrong should in no way excuse or justify any (alleged) abuse of power.  Why can't we say that the athlete and her family should have done their homework and known better AND that the coach should also be held accountable and that this is not acceptable?

In the same way that we say "it's not good for the coach to do this, but the athlete and her family should turn lemons to lemonade by learning from this and growing stronger", can we not also say "it's not good for the athlete and her family to not have done their homework or respond this way, but it may not be all bad that this happened bec it helps publicize coaching misbehavior and abuse of power - maybe this will lead to changes like it did in the gymnastics world".

@RJM posted:

140K household income places a family in the top third percentile in Massachusetts (looked it up rather than swinging from the hip).  Tomorrow when I’m at a friend’s multi million dollar home overlooking Lake Cochituate in Natick I’ll inform him he lives in a blue collar town. He’ll be amused.

Myself as a nearly lifelong Ma resident, can bet, your friend probably won't be that amused, as that is exactly how Natick is historically thought of,  and I'm betting if he bought a multi-million dollar house in Natick on the PONDs  ... he wishes he was in the zipcodes a little more east, that are actually considered affluent.  Since I'm sure he's doing a bit better than 140K.  But Natick, no, sorry, not affluent.   You may have a few blinders on if your friend is your reference for who lives in Natick.

By the way, the subject of the stories father's reported salary (Natick reports public servant salaries)  is 43K as reported in 2018.  I hardly think he doubled that in 4/5 years.

The highest 2018 Natick PUBLIC school salary is 88K (not the average, most likely the superintendent) and the actual average was 38K in 2018) and median $39,346.

I can look things up too. ;-)

@HSDad22 posted:

Myself as a nearly lifelong Ma resident, can bet, your friend probably won't be that amused, as that is exactly how Natick is historically thought of,  and I'm betting if he bought a multi-million dollar house in Natick on the PONDs  ... he wishes he was in the zipcodes a little more east, that are actually considered affluent.  Since I'm sure he's doing a bit better than 140K.  But Natick, no, sorry, not affluent.   You may have a few blinders on if your friend is your reference for who lives in Natick.

By the way, the subject of the stories father's reported salary (Natick reports public servant salaries)  is 43K as reported in 2018.  I hardly think he doubled that in 4/5 years.

The highest 2018 Natick PUBLIC school salary is 88K (not the average, most likely the superintendent) and the actual average was 38K in 2018) and median $39,346.

I can look things up too. ;-)

I also looked up the teachers salaries before posting. My friend lives down a private road. It’s an exclusive neighborhood. But this is straying far from the topic.

I’m nit backing off the girls is a precious petunia who should have become more educated about recruiting along with her parents before committing.

Everyone entering a top 25 program is likely very talented. But it doesn’t take a PhD in Mathematics to figure out 24 rosters spots for 11 on the field spots isn’t going to end well for a lot of players regardless of their ability.

A sane athlete would ask themselves what is their next move rather than whining one coach killed he relive if the game. It must be the first time in this precious petunia’s life her parents couldn’t snowplow the way for her.

@adbono posted:

What this thread is really about is the abuse of power. Do coaches abuse their power on a regular basis? Yes. They do. You know who else does? Teachers, politicians, law enforcement officers, hospital administrators, doctors, lawyers, judges, Hollywood celebrities, professional athletes, corporate executives….and on and on. It’s human nature (unfortunately) for people in a position of power to abuse their authority from time to time. Does that make it okay? No, of course not. But it part of the life struggle that all of us deal with. Everyone should be honest and truthful in all of their dealings. But we all know that to be a completely unrealistic expectation. At some point you have to understand that caveat emptor applies to almost everything. Whether you are buying a car or signing a scholarship letter. Personally I find it hard to believe that, if the behavior of the coach in question was habitual, it wasn’t well known among players, coaches, and administrators associated with that sport.
IMO half the fault lies with the player and her family. Just my two cents - and I am a player’s advocate.

And when people in power abuse it, journalists write articles about it. The victim blaming in this thread is sad, but unsurprising coming from a certain generation who played life on easy mode and mistook it for their own virtue.

@auberon posted:

And when people in power abuse it, journalists write articles about it. The victim blaming in this thread is sad, but unsurprising coming from a certain generation who played life on easy mode and mistook it for their own virtue.

During the course of a life, bad (sometimes traumatic) things often happen to good people who don’t deserve the cards they are dealt. When that happens a person has a choice to make. They can play the victim card. Or they can decide to be a survivor. Do you know who knows that? The generation of people that you just put down. That’s who. Not sure how wise it is to go after that age group on this site. But we want to thank you for playing Indoctrination Bingo. You get points for using the phrase “victim shaming.” You also get points for “blaming the boomers.” If you would have mentioned global warming, gun control, or equal outcome you would have gotten 3 in a row on the card. Which would have won you a juice box and a plastic trophy.

@adbono posted:

During the course of a life, bad (sometimes traumatic) things often happen to good people who don’t deserve the cards they are dealt. When that happens a person has a choice to make. They can play the victim card. Or they can decide to be a survivor. Do you know who knows that? The generation of people that you just put down. That’s who. Not sure how wise it is to go after that age group on this site. But we want to thank you for playing Indoctrination Bingo. You get points for using the phrase “victim shaming.” You also get points for “blaming the boomers.” If you would have mentioned global warming, gun control, or equal outcome you would have gotten 3 in a row on the card. Which would have won you a juice box and a plastic trophy.

I know this is not directed at me and I hope I've communicated enough my appreciation for the valuable lessons gained by dealing with adversity.  I hate how this conversation has become divisive with neither side trying to listen and understand the other side - kind of like what's happening in our society in general.

The young lady in this situation may very well be a spoiled entitled soft petunia, and the family should have done their homework and known better, and how they responded and dealt with the issue is not the wisest.  If this is the case, then that young lady and the family will encounter a lot more frustrations and disappointment in life if they don't learn how to better deal with adversity.

HOWEVER, what I (and some others here) are begging you to understand is that even if all that is true, this should not and does not excuse and justify anyone abusing their power and causing bad (sometimes traumatic) things to good people who don't deserve it.  There is nothing wrong with speaking up if and when these things happen, in the same way there is nothing wrong with sucking it up and enduring. In fact, speaking up may do much more good for other people at your own expense (of putting yourself out there for these kind of criticism and/or losing out on the opportunity to become tougher by sucking it up).  People who spoke up has been the reason why horrible abuse of power has been brought to light, stopped those abusive people from causing more trauma on other kids, and radically changed the culture of certain sports that had made it easy for abusive coaches to remain hidden or even openly tolerated (i.e. what happened in the gymnastics world).

And yes, I also do recognize that it could be the coach did not do anything wrong or abuse their power.  It could be that she didn't make any false promises, or set any false expectations.  That she treated the athlete very fairly, and that the athlete just didn't get what she wanted and responded this way.  I've also seen this happen.  Allowing the athlete and her family to go public like this could also unfairly destroy the reputation and livelihood of the coach unfairly.  I don't have a perfect answer other than:

1. We know abuse happens.  You admitted and recognized it here.  The solution can't be to silence anyone and everyone, esp when young athletes are involved.

2. I believe that putting it out in the public, albeit not perfect, could be the best way to figure out what really happened.

3. Even if the coach is unfairly accused, then can we not also tell her to "suck it up" and learn from this?  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  And even when I say that, it doesn't make it right to be unfairly accused and we should aim to see how we can make the process better.  The solution is to not sweep everything under the rug and silence everyone (which I've seen happen from the other side to silence the accused in the name of protecting the accuser).

@atlnon , None of my comments condone anyone abusing their power. I was very clear in saying that is not okay. I have also not said anything to suggest that known incidents of people abusing power should be swept under the rug. That’s not okay either. But the case described in the article is “he said / she said. Or to be more accurate she said/she said. Nobody knows what actually happened and all of our commentary is speculation. FWIW I think your attempt to compare this situation to the sexual abuse scandal that occurred in women’s gymnastics is a reach to say the least. All forms of abuse are bad but some are much worse than others. I understand the implications of this much more than you seem to realize. I have a lot of experience dealing with the impact of abuse on kids and the past I worked hard to get 2 abusive coaches fired. You are either not comprehending my comments or you are looking for an argument which I am not interested in having.

@adbono posted:

@atlnon , None of my comments condone anyone abusing their power. I was very clear in saying that is not okay. I have also not said anything to suggest that known incidents of people abusing power should be swept under the rug. That’s not okay either. But the case described in the article is “he said / she said. Or to be more accurate she said/she said. Nobody knows what actually happened and all of our commentary is speculation. FWIW I think your attempt to compare this situation to the sexual abuse scandal that occurred in women’s gymnastics is a reach to say the least. All forms of abuse are bad but some are much worse than others. I understand the implications of this much more than you seem to realize. I have a lot of experience dealing with the impact of abuse on kids and the past I worked hard to get 2 abusive coaches fired. You are either not comprehending my comments or you are looking for an argument which I am not interested in having.

I apologize.  I didn't intent to pick an argument with you. Given what you shared, then we are not far off from each other.  I just haven't heard you mention your perspective, thoughts and experience with coaching abuse.  Thank you for sharing.  Where we differ is if this specific article in question involves coaching abuse or simply an athlete crying wolf bec she didn't get what she wanted.  Actually, we don't even differ that much on that.  Based on the article, there's enough yellow flags for me to wonder the same thing (I'm more on the fence on this).  Where we probably differ is due to the incidents of coaching abuse (and my involvement in the gymnastics world), I tend to err on the side of "it's alright for the athlete to air out their concerns and let's not promote/push for for a culture of silence" if there's any possibility of coaching abuse.  And even if the athlete was wrong in this case, I still hesitate of silencing her as it risks discouraging others who are truly experiencing coaching abuse from speaking up.

I do think what happened in gymnastics is very relevant.  It's the culture of "the coach is always right" and "even if the coach was unfair, just suck it up so that you can become tougher" that led to sexual abusers to get away abusing kids for so long.

This comment may have already been made in this thread, but I didn't read every comment.  Anyway, just thought I would add that some D1 coaches will tell recruits that "I'm not allowed to offer an official scholarship for more than one year at a time." 

That may be true under their school policy or if directed so by the school's athletic director, but if coaches are telling recruits "it's an NCAA rule that I can only offer a scholarship for one year at a time" that's not true in Division I.  It is for Division II, but not D1. 

Also, an officially written scholarship to cover multiple years can't be reduced or cancelled while it's in force simply for reasons of the athlete's athletic performance.  That's why some coaches try to run the athlete off or cite some picky "violation of team rules" to cancel the scholarship.