What to do about the HR record

I think you have to record it as is. I am not a Barry supporter by any means, and I am one of the people who thinks he juiced, but it is the fault of the fans, the league, the players, the owners and the commissioner. If he was the only one then maybe. There is no clear delineation between those who did and those who didn't. Sufficient historical note has been made of the issue. That will serve to make the point for years to come.

put a needle by bonds name and say he accidentally
did steriods

I see no doubt in the fact that he juiced. I am not a Barry Bonds supporter and felt no feelings when he hit his HR last night.

Still, you are innocent until proven guilty in this country. And nothing has been proven yet. If/when it is proven, then the MLB will have to make a decision. But then it can get sticky. If you punish Bonds' HR record, what about Jason Grimsley's career strikeouts? And Rafael Palmeiro's career doubles? Records are records, it doesn't matter if it is #1 or #43752652. If the MLB decides to take action with the HR record, they need to take action with each and every player proven to be taking illegal substances.

The ONLY answer is "record it as is". Otherwise, you pretty much have to question every other record. Highest batting average? Most stolen bases? Most K's? Lowest ERA?

Are those records questionable? Not likely. But do we know, with 100% certainty that they're not?

If you make the HR record a "no no" what do you do with all the other records---who knows who did what to get where


And I will ask this again---Roger Maris when he hit his 61 dingers had never hit more than 39 previous nor did he hit more than 39 after that year---what caused that explosion ???

I would add one more choice.

Record all the new records - and then double the steroid dosages - and see if he can hit 150 home runs in one season.

LOL

PGstaff

quote:

What should be done in the record books about the HR record.

Nothing. Im happy with Hank Aaron's record. 755 is an amazing feat that may never be reached. Griffey is close, but I think father time may slow him down before he gets to Hank's record.

Some Players were certainly doing Roids are whatever to gain an advantage.
But the ball also had to of been juiced. Everybody was hitting more HR those few years.
Players and the MLB/Union, Are all responsible.
including us for not showing enough discust with the Steroid abuser's.
What did we do after Lyle Alzado died from steroid abuse.
Nothing, We just shock are head's.
Only when it made it to the floor of Congress did it become a serious issue to sport's.

I'm still going to blame it on trying to compete with Super Hero
Status that was taking over the airwaves in Big Time Wrestling.
Pumped up Super Men.
Remember it's entertainment first, Then Baseball.
EH

Hey, I found this guy playing in the sandlots. I think Barry's in trouble.

Hehe, his head's about the same as Barry's!

For now nothing...Let the situation play itself out.

I think a better question is....What should/would MLB do if it
is proven that Barry Bonds did use steroids. I think that one gets REAL MESSY.

OH please has this been done to death. Barry Bonds took steriods, he just claims he did not know he took them and they did not work anyways.

Except for the bad skin, hair loss, swelled head, home run burst and mood swings. Poor Barry.


Selig, media, GM, MLb coaches,MLB scouts and press all knew players were doing steroids and HGH. You have to be a complete moron not to tell.

They just felt it was easier to keep their mouth shut and go along.

Sure there is evidence for the theater of public opinion. But if MLB is going to do something with the record it would require rock solid proof. IMO

This issue is much deeper for those who are in charge.

It is easy for us to give our opinions, but think about the difficulties involved in actually making a ruling on this.

Seems like the only reasonable thing to do is wait and see how things turn out. If baseball made a decision at this point it could end up being a mistake.

A bigger head might not carry a lot of weight in a court room.

So, with the way some people look at this, I guess you all think Bonds is still juicing today, huh? Regardless of what happened in the past, why don't we hear people give him the credit for what he's accomplishing at this point, when he almost certainly isn't doing what he's being vilified for probably doing in the past?

Does nobody remember Brady Anderson? I'm sure most of you are going, HUH? What's he talking about? How about a guy who never hit many suddenly exploding for 51...and then going back into relative obscurity. If you're going to put an asterisk or anything else next to Bond's name, you'll have to do the same with, literally, hundreds of other players.

I completely agree there was and may still be a big problem with this. I just don't get the fixation on one single athlete when it was/is so widespread. There are a heck of a lot more pitchers living in the mid-80s, velocity-wise, than there were in the late nineties to about 2004, when the mid-90s guys were so prevalent. I guess they all just quit lifting and long tossing.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Does nobody remember Brady Anderson?

Or Bret Boone of the crying Boone family?

Another excellent example, Poptime. Perhaps we should expand this thread to include everyone else who is known or suspected, just as Bonds. I'll throw in another, Eric Gagne. I have a friend who's with an MLB club that told me he's one of the biggest abusers there ever was. If that level of proof is good enough for the Bonds bashers, it ought to be good enough for here.

Interesting, as I read this thread, NOBODY argues that the record should be diminished by an asterisk or worse at this time. (Nor do I.)

I think people realize that baseball fans are sophisticated enough not to need any asterisk or any other indication on the books to taint the record. We all get it. He took steriods.

To do anything officially in the record books to diminish or expunge the record brings up far more issues than it solves.

And it is unnecessary. Everyone KNOWS already why he broke the record. What the record book says or doesn't say doesn't do a darn thing to change the taint the record has in most of our minds.

I say no asterisk until proven guilty, then consider it. Record as is for mow.

I believe it takes more than muscle mass to hit homers and we shouldn't forget that. No doubt Bonds can read a pitch, read the ball, swing the wood with the sweet spot aligned just the right way, has very quick hands, great extension and rotation, and all the rest that puts that can'0'corn sailing over a wall. With or without the juice, there's no denying he is a very good player.

Who says he is not juicing now. It is my understanding that there is no test for HGH. Further, I would find it hard to believe that there is not a new substance out there that is not detectable. Thde authorities are always one step behind the chemist. Just look at the olympics. I find it difficult to claim that any of them are clean and until the process becomes completely transparent it will never happen.

quote:

And I will ask this again---Roger Maris when he hit his 61 dingers had never hit more than 39 previous nor did he hit more than 39 after that year---what caused that explosion ???

TRhit

TR, you've been spewing that same tired nonsense about Maris for the last couple of years. The guy had a career year..period.

Since Barroid joined the Giants, his jersey size reportedly increased from a 42 to a 52, and his shoe size increased from a 10 1/2 to a 13. His hat size grew, despite him shaving his head.

He's already admitted taking designer steroids that were undetectable to testing. There's testimony that he took a lot more than just the "Clear" and the "Cream". MLB doesn't test for HGH, and everything about Bonds points to his using it. His trainer is still in jail for refusing to testify, and he will remain in jail for quite some time...while Barroid is playing ball.

You can keep pointing the finger at Maris, but there's absolutely nothing to suggest he used steroids..he just happened to be on a good team in a year that I believe had diluted pitching. Your accusation borders on being downright ridiculous.

The Players Union is fighting to keep the players names listed in the ongoing steroid investigation of the clubhouse attendant secret. At this point in sports, it's reached the point that there's almost no sense in asking who IS using a banned substance..you almost have to ask who isn't...because there's so many ways to circumvent the system, and the financial windfall can be huge if you beat the system. Look at ARod...his next contract is having figures of $30 million/year being bandied about...that's powerful motivation for a player to try and cheat.

Every personal record of this "era" is suspect. Bonds was relatively late to the sterois party. With great skills amplified by juice he created not greatness but scepticism.
This is MLB's and every other major sport's fault. They didn't address it until the it became an issue for congress. They were more interested in the freak show of chemically assisted athletes. It put people in the seats.
Rollerman

Jerry- 06 Catcher is correct along with a bunch of people. Hey Frank, people lose hair when they get older. I know! How many guys who pitched to Bonds were juicing. The guy who gave up 755 was suspended in the minors for steroids. You don't think Gagne wasn't juicing. Not a big secret. This whole era sucks. That said, there's nothing you can do to change it. Let's move on.

Finally, how many of our great players in the "golden era" of the 60's and 70's were taking greenies to keep them "up". That is a HUGE help! Bonds is not a great guy. That's a given. That said, he's presently the best who ever played until ARod beats his record. That will be a great day because it will **** off half the people on this board who would rather have a SS who has zero power instead of the probable best player of all-time!

Very simple.

Change ALL of the records to read like this:

"Most ________ by a player not proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have used drugs"

I find it interesting that his trainer and the owner of Balco rufuse to implicate him. Just an observation.

Place an asterisk next to the record in the design of Bud Selig's anguished face. Selig allowed this to happen. It happened under his watch as commissioner. Selig thought all the homers in the 90's were good for the game so he put his head in the sand. It will be interesting to find out how many players have been on steroids. The last ten or so years will go down in history as The Steroid Era.

2 SEAMER


And what brought about the so called "career year"?


How many players have had "career years" that outshone anything they had previously done ?


By the way I do not spew nonsense---do you have an answer other than "career year" ?


Diluted pitching? we can say the same for Bonds--it is more diluted now than ever

Think before you speak--it might help you

quote:

2 SEAMER


And what brought about the so called "career year"?


How many players have had "career years" that outshone anything they had previously done ?


By the way I do not spew nonsense---do you have an answer other than "career year" ?


Diluted pitching? we can say the same for Bonds--it is more diluted now than ever

Think before you speak--it might help you

What brought about Maris's career year? How about batting ahead of Mantle in a strong lineup on a strong team. If you were a pitcher, who would you rather take your chances with..Maris or Mantle?

I thought so.

As for you asking how many players in the history of baseball ever had a career year...have you lost your mind? Baseball is chock full of guys that had a career year that they never lived up to again.

Is pitching actually diluted now? I wouldn't be so sure about that. Yes, there are more teams, which require more pitching..but the flip side of that is that there is a much larger pool of pitchers to pick from, because there are more people playing now than there was in 1961.

I do believe that you should think before you speak. You've offered absolutely nothing proof-wise with your accusations the last year or two that Maris did something shady. On the other hand, your boy Barroid admitted using steroids under the flimsy excuse that he thought it was flaxseed oil and muscle balm. His testosterone levels in tests Balco performed showed levels higher than a 17 year old on prom night in the backseat of Dad's car. Since he joined the Giants, his jersey size grew from a 42 to a 52. His shoe size grew from 10 1/2 to a 13. His hat size grew even though he shaved his head....all hallmarks of HGH use.

How much of that happened to Maris?

You really should stick to picking on Andy...he's a much easier target than me.

I think most people forget that Bonds has formally been caught cheating, just not with steroids or HGH. In the last two years (I forget exactly when) Bonds has tested positive for amphetamines. However, the punishment for a positive result for amphetamines is different than steroids, so for his first offence he received a warning instead of a 50 game suspension. Of course, he blamed it on his teammate Mark Sweeney and something he took from his locker.

ESPN Article: Bonds Tests Positive for Amphetamines

I don't like him, but to pull him out of the crowd among the multiple cheaters in the hall of fame from different eras who have their names in the record books without any asterisks and smear his accomplishments is unnecessary.

If this is the "Steroid Era" then it seems to me that it's time to pick on someone else.

How many pitchers did Bonds face that were users?

How many other hitters were using?

Just because he's a bonafide jerk doesn't mean he deserves all the asterisk attention.....give an asterisk to the era.

Time to honor Bobby Jenks, a man who has defeated many demons and is on the verge of a Dimaggio type of record!

quote:

Originally posted by soxnole:
If this is the "Steroid Era" then it seems to me that it's time to pick on someone else.

How many pitchers did Bonds face that were users?

How many other hitters were using?

Just because he's a bonafide jerk doesn't mean he deserves all the asterisk attention.....give an asterisk to the era.

Time to honor Bobby Jenks, a man who has defeated many demons and is on the verge of a Dimaggio type of record!

The issue fans have with Bonds is he took down the most hallowed record in sports. Otherwise he wouldn't get any more attention than McGwire or Palmeiro.

* Cheater

the records after the mound changed stayed but we all know what the diff. was. as we do now in the "post" steriod era

I think the difference between the steroids and the mound is the mound is the same for everyone. I'm pretty sure everyone is not doing steroids.