What to do? College coach doesn't want NLI signed son on team because of injury

They are only allowed so many counters. Signing an NLI would eat up one. I believe their are 30 counters now but not sure. his is one of the negatives of the rule changes. No longer can take some risk on a player. An NLI player also takes up a roster spot .

I believe it is 27 counters and 35 max roster limit. What the coach is telling you is DONT COME.

We can argue till the cows come home about this being right or not on his part. But that will not change the fact if your son goes he will be coming into a program he is being told he is not wanted in.

IMO this is much better than not being told once he arrives or after he has invested a year or two of his elgibility there. Also imo its time to regroup and check out some other options for your son. Good luck

So, if he still wants to go to the school, he has to give up the scholarship and not play ball?

I thought the number went up to 30 but not sure. It was before my son's time.
You could chance a walk on but that is a big risk especially when the coach didn't suggest it.
Better option is find a school where the coach wants and needs him.

orangecrush:

Your son can show up and they must honor the scholarship, but only for one year. Then he will be sent on his way as far as the team is concerned. Coach May offers wise words that for me would be difficult not to heed, as hard as I know this must be on you and your family. Harsh decisions are made all the time and the higher you advance in baseball the more harsh and the more final they can become.

Are we talking about a D1, D2 or JC? The rules are different.
For all divisions, the school must honor the scholarship for one year. However, the school is not required to play your son, nor necessarily to allow him to practice. The school would prefer that you "mutually" agree to void the NLI, because there is a limit on the total number of scholarships, and they would prefer use your son's scholarship on another player whom they have more confidence in.

If your son attends the school anyway, the probable (although not certain) outcome is that he won't play, and won't be offered a renewal of the scholarship. If he wants to play baseball, he should probably attempt to hook up with a different school. He could attend the NLI school, and transfer to a new school for his sophomore year, but if he transfers to a D1 school, and the NLI school is a 4 year school, he would have to spend one academic year in residence before being eligible at the new school. Effectively it would be two years before he could play, so if he hopes to play at a D1, he should not attend the NLI school.

If the NLI school is a JC, or if he ends up transferring to a D2, D3, or NAIA school, he won't have to sit out a year even if he attends one year at the NLI school.

Regarding counters, that simply refers to any player who is receiving an athletically related scholarship. At a D1, any player who receives athletic aid must be on the 35 man roster list which is submitted at the beginning of the playing season. So if your son attends a D1 school which won't allow him on the team, they'll only have 34 active players. That's another reason why they would like him to give up the NLI agreement.

This is a tough situation to be in, but from a baseball perspective (leaving aside academic and financial considerations) the only reasonable recourse is to find some other school.

Never go to a program that doesn't have faith in you. You were fortunate to learn about the program's pimples before showing up.

Find a better program, although you may need to start at a JC.

Plus, I would say if you show up and make them honor their scholarship the coach will not put in a good word for your son and maybe a bad word for your son in wanting to play somewhere else. He could also make life very tough on your son on campus and in the classroom. Heed the advice of the Coach, find another spot.

I would like to say that I am sorry you and your son are going through this. Hang in there & don't give up, I hope everything works out & he gets to pursue baseball in a program where his skills are both utilized & appreciated. Good luck to you!

When one door closes (and it has for your baseball at this college), other doors provide you opportunities to open each. Time to prepare for the opportunities.

I'd recommend asking for help finding a spot elsewhere and then if that happens fine. If you don't get any help then you might want to "publicize" it.

Let me go on record that this coach is a pos imo. You offer a kid a scholley and he signs an NLI. You ask and expect these young men to honor their word. And then you at the last minute do not honor yours. Its just my opinion but it speaks to the lack of character of the coach. And I think its BS.

That does not help your son though. And there is no way you should allow him to go into a situation like this. And you should not want your son to play for a coach like this anyway. Good luck to your son. I hope he blows up in college and this clown lives to regret his decision. And I hope that the next time a kid gives him his word and then backs out on him at the last minute he remembers how he himself treated your son. JMO

Coach May

Tough situation and the coach is a POS as Coach May intimated.

My advice, is that it's fall back time. It's doubtful that a school of the caliber of most kids dream schools is going to have scholarship $ available and even less so, for a kid that missed his senior year and summer.

A JUCO is a very good alternative. They'll have a scholarship for a kid, it offers the opportunity to showcase his skills again and be recruited again.

One of the reasons this coach is a bad dude, is that he has the option of talking to you and placing junior with a nearby JUCO that he is friendly with and telling him, that if it all comes back, they'd be happy to re sign him after freshman year at the 4 year. Instead, this guy is just trying to shove junior out the door asap.

Anyway, take a deep breath, look at the options, and it'll all work itself out.

Best of luck.

One last comment from me on this one. Your son may want to "save face" with his buddies and go anyway. He may have the attitude "I am going to show up anyway and show this guy." Trust me even though that attitude is admirable its not fair to your son to allow him to put himself in this situation.

Punt , plays some defense , and then score the next time you get the ball. JUCO is a great option as CPLZ stated. Sometimes we think something like this is the worse thing that could happen but believe me maybe this coach is actually saving your son from some serious misery. Imagine if he treats kids like this before they ever get to his program how he treats those already there?

Good luck - And look at the positives that can come out of this. They are there you just have to trust.

Know a young man from 2005 graduation where coach ripped scholarship a few weeks before class was to begin that fall. He scrambled & wound up on a CWS team!
There may not be scholarship dollars at a D-1 right now, but don't let that deter your son. There are opportunities out there! Most importantly, go where a coach RESPECTS you & wants you! Be as "gracious" as you can to "Coach Jerk", and pursue BETTER opportunities.
Good luck

I'm curious, under what circumstances does a college coach have the authority to take a scholarship away right before the fall semester begins, baseballmom? Was this a returning player or an incoming freshman? I thought that the accepted scholarship offer was good for one year. Or was it this type of situation where the coach made it clear that the player was no longer wanted or needed?

metroclubball,
Incoming freshman. On "rumor" of injury due to kid being overthrown his HS season & into playoffs, Coach withdrew offer (7 mo after NLI signed!) & drug his feet all summer, until complaint to NCAA & threat of lawsuit, before releasing kid from NLI. That coach is no longer at that college...recruiting violations & other investigations...
But player played, graduated with honors & is now an asst. coach at University that picked him up at the last minute.

Are you questioning original posters inquiry? Same situation. My reply to his post is confirmation that, indeed coaches do pull schollys, but MORE importantly, there may be another...better opportunity out there for his son.

I know of at least 4 situations similar to Orange Crush by high profile D1 programs LATE last summer (one of the D1's is in the CWS this summer, 2 others went to Super Regionals) .... all of these 09's were very early commitments (spring of Junior year and July before senior year) followed by November NLI signings.... and only one of them was due to injury.

I think this is a side-effect of college coaches asking/receiving verbal commitments so early...they like the player until they find one they like better.

Here is a link to a thread where this topic was discussed in the Texas forum last August following the un-inviting of some area NLI players ... it is a long thread (4 pages) but a good discussion

2009 Scholarship Woes

quote:

Originally posted by baseballmom:
Coach withdrew offer (7 mo after NLI signed!) & drug his feet all summer, until complaint to NCAA & threat of lawsuit, before releasing kid from NLI.

I'm confused. What do you mean by "withdrew offer"? With a signed NLI, the "offer" has been converted to a contract. But whether we call it an offer or contract, I don't understand what a coach could do to "withdraw" it, if he doesn't release the player from the NLI.

3 fingered, excuse my language. The action by coach was he pulled the kids scholarship. He would not sign the release, until he was told that the matter is going to the NCAA & a suit was filed by his parents.
Sorry for not being clear.

Maybe we should have a golden thread for Scholarship Shenanigans. And name the school.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Maybe we should have a golden thread for Scholarship Shenanigans. And name the school.

There are 4 schools named in the Texas thread that I posted a link to ... however, if it is a big time program I don't think it really hurts them.... I don't think most recruits think it will happen to them.

I know of a JC that called one of their freshmen pitchers (will be 2nd year next season) on the phone last week and told him they needed his scholarship $$$$ to sign other players. He was told that he could "tryout" in the fall but he should probably find another school. This after the players brother also attend the school 2 years ago and went on to play for a local D1.

I thought that some of the coaches were bad back when I played but the things that happened 30 & 40 years ago are pale compared to what coaching staffs are doing today. Are the coaches today loyal to anyone? They seem as if they would lie and steal from their own mother if they could get ahead in the world.

My son was in very similar situation. He was injured during senior year of football, but went into rehab and never missed an inning of baseball. He did move from third to first for the season, but still batted nearly .500, though with a little less power than junior year. He was so disappointed to get a call from Texas State coaches on June 3, 2010 telling him that he was no longer wanted in their program next season. He had verbally committed to them last June, and signed the NLI in November. Obviously, it was a one sided committment. It served their purposes to hold onto him while they continued to scout around, looking for 'better' players. I have no admiration or respect for the Texas State coaches. I am very happy that he will not be coached or mentored in any way by such men. Thankfully, a school that was recruiting him last summer was still interested and he will play for them.

Ladies and Gentlemen

You need to realize that college baseball is BIG BUSINESS---the coach HAS to win to stay in his position-- ethics for many do not enter into it--perhaps because I come from the business world of NYC where everything is rapid and cutthroat I am used to this means of operation but it is what it is and is going to get worse

fishw,

I'm curious to know if you had any inkling or "negative vibrations" from the program before the ultimate "don't come' phone call? Would the coaches of the program point to any other factors if they were trying to explain this action? Or would they hang their hat on the explanation that they decided their baseball evaluation was flawed?

Yes, there were signs that coaches were second guessing themselves. The first sign was the night before the NLI could be signed. The recruiting coach called and told son he might need to go to a JUCO. (another shock out of the blue) They had some story about a walkon that played same positions as my son. NLI was sent a few days later, and my son signed. Son had not even been injured in football at this time, so that could not have been part of the equation yet. I think school made offer to my son too quickly, head coach had not seen him play at all. Other coaches had seen a few games. I honestly believe that they made an offer to him to keep him from accepting another offer he was very interested in, then they intended to make final decision later. It was a way to hold him while they continued their recruiting. When they decided they wanted to go another direction, the injury was just the excuse they needed. We never heard any more about the walk on. My son considered holding them to their committment of the NLI, but was told he could not expect fair treatment from the coaches if he did that. I feel lucky to be done with them.

Running players off for an injury is a pos thing to do. I know a few pitchers who arrived at school injured through no fault of their own, went through surgery, rehab, etc., and never threw in a game, but didn't lose a nickel of scholly money. That coach more than honored his committment.

quote:

Originally posted by fishw5:
I think school made offer to my son too quickly, head coach had not seen him play at all. Other coaches had seen a few games.

This happens all of the time, this is called poor recruiting. FWIW, most head coaches of larger programs don't see many recruits play (unless closer to home or they recruit players themselves), that's generally left up to the people who get paid to do those things. But it is the HC that signs the NLI, so the responsibility falls on him. Most likely he hasn't done a good job at working his numbers when he calls to say he needs your money to give to someone else. JMO.

Too many stories of coaches seeing players play once, not even at all, then many months later realizing they may have too large a roster due to those they thought would get drafted didn't. So who is going to be asked to leave? Many coaches have trouble working the numbers, and their budgets. I hear it's really tough.

There was a coach recruitng my son who had never seen him play, he made an offer over the phone with an official invite, he went by what others (who were good judge of talent and character) said about him. Thos was a consideration on son's list. Then he called to say he had to spend the money elsewhere, he also, I might add, is no longer coaching. What if he had committed?

On the other hand, my son's dream school UM who had been to Omaha that year and had a pitching coaching change, began late in recruiting, the new p coach called to tell him that he couldn't make any judgements or any offer until he personally watched him a few times (but he has been to their camp), as much as that may have hit son the wrong way, it was ll handled teh right way. They did come to a few games, he played on their field in front of the new coach then they called to make an official visit, and discussed scholarships and how they do things, by that time, he had already decided where he wasn't interested he had already established relationships he felt more comfortable with. You will come up against all types of scenerios in recruiting.

There are many coaches that will never pull the NLI if a player gets hurt, they can afford the redshirt if needed because they have planned well. Years ago they never pulled your scholarship before you came, you just showed up and if there were too many after fall practice they told you they didn't see you doing muchin teh way playing time at their program, so that would allow a transfer with no penalty. Now consider it a favor if they let you know before you set foot on campus and before July 1, so you can explore other options at D1 without penalty or head to JUCO for a year ( and unfortunetly start the process all over again but that is just the way it is in a game where it has become a big business).

I know some people swear by sending DVD and player websites, that should be for introduction only, but my advice is to never jump on an offer until the coach really knows how you can play, and just one game doesn't prove much for some. And don't jump because you feel the need to sign early or this is the school you always wanted to play for. Waiting for the right opportunity, the right coach, the right fit is worth it, even if you have to wait longer and watch everyone else sign or commit early.

Everyone knows that there are a lot of variables that go into playing college baseball. Many of them the player has some control over, some they have little or no control of. All you can do is control what you can control. One area that is a must is that the parents need to check into the reputation of the coach and the program before signing NLI.

Like any negotiation, some people are straight forward and even if things don't work out down the road, at least you know the lay of the land beforehand. Others have less integrity and will tell you once thing to get you to sign and later on your son might learn another side of the program.

Just because a team makes a few trips to Omaha, for example, doesn't exempt it from close parental scrutiny.

Big Business...yes. Unfortunately it's hard to determine how a coach or school will react under stressful circumstances. I ran into a kid a few years ago who had Tommy John and was rehabbing for the summer, helping coach his little brother.

It was a very good D-1 school, he was one of the aces, and injuries had plagued the staff. It was up to him to shoulder the load down the stretch and his arm couldn't take the stress. He knew a lot of it had to do with the coach and the pressure he put on him to pitch, but as they were sticking with him for the time being, he knew his options were limited going forward. Unfortunately he never really regained his form, haven't spoke to him since, but I wonder whow it might have been if things were different. Just one of thousands of stories though. Makes you wonder if the spirit of the scholar athlete realtionship is really being served, and how can it be preserved.

Ah igball you hit on a good point there.
The truth to the matter is you can do all the homework you want, until you play for a particular coach, YOU DON'T KNOW nothing.

This is something we rarely speak of here, but trust me, you probaby won't find too many players who don't have some issue with who they played for. The best you can do is ask the coach straight up about how he handles injuries before they actually come (but remember many coaches aren't even told sometimes). People hide things often). it often works two ways (I am not saying this post suggests that).

There is a team that makes the NCAA playoffs anually and often times super regionals and been to Omaha several times that's as far as I go with that info as to not give away the team. I don't know of one player (or their parents) that cared for the HC. This is a team that most of our kids would go through hoops to play for. I have 2 good friends whose sons transfered there and they both said sons should have stayed where they were, yeah both players got drafted too so they were VERY good players.

In many ways it's close to the reality of signing up for a travel team and then finding out that the manager or coach has different plans than you expected, nobody said you didn't do your job in asking questions, you most likely got someone elses perspective and opinion.

It's very hard, you got to go a lot by your gut feeling and if it doesn't work out, then your gut told you wrong and you need to swallow the pride and make a change.

JMO

Have you considered sitting down with the coach and trying to get something out of him in exchange for agreeing to terminate the NLI? You really have nothing to lose by asking him for his assistance in finding a new opportunity in exchange for agreeing to drop the NLI and giving him the money and flexibility he wants. He can say no, but since you have something he wants he just may be willing to help your son find a school that would want him. Don't ever forget that baseball is very much a 'people business' in ways that a lot of players and parents don't consider. Coaches know each other and often times point guys toward kids who can help their programs, usually when they play in other leagues. Perhaps this coach would be willing to help connect your son with another school that could use your son, in exchange for you agreeing to go there. It is worth talking to him about this, as the worst that can come is he says he won't help, and the best is that both sides get something they want out of this tough situation.