What would be better?

Tough Decision:

What does your son want to do?
This is the first consideration--have you discussed it with him?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Tough Decision:

What does your son want to do?
This is the first consideration--have you discussed it with him?

Short term he would like to play at the DI with his friends and this Coach. Friends have really talked up the school and the staff.

Long term he would like to play Pro ball. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with this type of thing. How tough is it to go to Pro ball as a utility player? If valuable to the DI you graduated from that is?

power,
Part of any opinion will depend on the level of the DI program involved. I would think it makes a huge difference if it comes from a top 25 program/coach as contrasted with a coach/program in the middle lower DI without a real record of developing players and moving them to the next level.
The next issue to recognize is how few at the DIII level get drafted. It happens...about 20 or so per year. But with some analysis, you can find the programs developing those players and how they do it.
Your situation is interesting because in 2004/05, our son played and roomed in Milb with a Stanford grad who was a 4 year starter who played every position but pitcher, catcher and 2B, and sure enough, was drafted as a 2B.
Our son was the DIII player who focused on one position with some success.
As opposed to DI vs DII/DIII, I think it is the quality of the program and coach which will help address those options. From some DI coaches, that type of comment can be a huge compliment to your son. From others, it can be an opportunity to avoid commitment, and be of very little value or importance.

Infielddad,

Thanks for the response! That makes me feel a little better about this decision not blowing a chance for future baseball opportunities. It sounds like, with the two examples you gave that it could work out either way. Thanks again.

Don;t discount the role of a utility player. What the D1 coach is saying is that your son would be valuable at multiple positions, therefore giving him multiple opportunities to play. That is a good thing! Many freshmen ride the pine. Yours may get an opportunity. You are 3 years away from a shot at the pros. Your son must take the time to work on his game. Who knows what ultimately is his best position? With restrictions on recruiting, the utility player is much more valuable to a coach than a one position player unless that one position is pitcher.

As a utility player you need to understand that unless he is the best at some position or he can just rake with his bat, he most likely not start at a position or even play until he is the best or someone gets hurt.

The baseball sportswriter of a major newspaper emailed me the following a few months ago:

"I used to cover minor league baseball in Austin (the Express), and the most coveted spot there is the utility infielder. There's always bound to be a spot opening in the infield somewhere, so it always helps to know every position. Sometimes on off days, the players would practice catching just to see if they could hack it there for a better shot at the bigs."

When my son was recruited by his college, he was told that his versatility at being able to play 2B, SS, and 3B was "huge."

I think your son's chances at starting would be increased by his ability to play several positions.

Thanks guys, I'm feeling better all the time!

Infield08,

It's funny you mention the Cather thing, my Son has been doing some Catching in the Fall, the team needs a back-up to the starter in case he goes down. He hasn't caught since he was 14 and he only caught the starting Catcher then when he was pitching. I'm amazed he can still do it, but he has done surprisingly well.

He has certainly sacrificed for the "team" as far as position playing in the past. Maybe it will end up being a good thing, but it has always made me wonder if it will hurt his College chances.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
As a utility player you need to understand that unless he is the best at some position or he can just rake with his bat, he most likely not start at a position or even play until he is the best or someone gets hurt.

He is a very good hitter with speed and power. I guess that's why he's always been able to play and with his personality, he doesn't mind moving around to help the "team". This year was the hardest for him mentally since he was working really hard for a starting infield spot, but once again, the team needed to fill an outfield spot and he got to play 3B when the team ace (starting 3rd baseman) was on the mound.

You have a tough choice.

You wont get drafted if you dont get significant playing time.

So, I would choose the school that really wants you as a player rather than utility.

Players are drafted at every level so dont let that keep you from looking at schools that have a far greater interest in his talents.

You might be getting ahead of yourself. Which ever college division you still have to compete and earn your spot every year.
There are players drafted every year from every div. If you think because you go D11 or D111 it will be a snap, I would think again.

quote:

I would choose the school that really wants you as a player rather than utility

I didnt' know that the words "player" and "utility" were mutually exclusive. Can't you be a utility player who is so good that you can start at a variety of positions?

Ryan Freel is a 6 year vet with the Reds. He is a utility player with a 3 million salary. I met him in A ball and my son became a good friend while he was here. He is good enough to start at several positions. I enjoyed watching him and he stood out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4629

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You might be getting ahead of yourself. Which ever college division you still have to compete and earn your spot every year.
There are players drafted every year from every div. If you think because you go D11 or D111 it will be a snap, I would think again.

Yeah, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that's kind of the question I was asking. I just don't want him to blow a future opportunity with a wrong decision now. I guess I've got my answer here, but it's still tough. Do you know if Freel was a utility player in college too, or was he a position player and then became one in the Pros. I'm just trying to figure out what Pro scouts look for...how they would see it. I was more looking at position player vs. utility player, not D I vs. D II or D III. That's just what's on the table at the moment. I'm hoping for a good Senior year and other things to decide on, lol, but we're greatful of any opportunities.

We are fully aware that you have to compete every year for a spot at any level (even High School where we come from). I know that he has always given everything he has to his team, so if he gets beat out then we'll all know it's probably not going to be, but it won't be from lack of competing. Heck, just to be in a position to be able to play College ball is a great accomplishment so far.

Not sure what he did in college. I met him at a camp while he play A ball for the Jays. He worked with my son on basic skills.
I sat with his parents a few times when they flew in to watch a game but never discussed his college . He was a great kid and took an interest in my son. I could see he was a talented player who could move around position to position.

Back to the original question, if he is good enough, why not find another DI school that thinks of him as a specific position player that is versatile enough that he can also play other positions vs just as a utility player?

It is true that players are drafted out of good DII, DIII, NAIA, and JC’s, but a lot more get drafted out of DI schools each year!

If you are a utility player you have a better chance of playing. There is nothing negative about being a utility player. A position specific player has a greater potential to sit behind a great incumbant player.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If you are a utility player you have a better chance of playing. There is nothing negative about being a utility player. A position specific player has a greater potential to sit behind a great incumbant player.

So are you saying we should be marketing him as a utility player or at least making sure the Scouts know he can play multiple positions? I really like the idea of him being able to play as much as possible as a Freshman.

I would much rather he be thought of as a SS because of his quickness-glove-arm that can be put at the corners because of his bat, behind the plate because of his arm, can also play the outfield because of his speed, and 1B because he can pick it and has a big bat vs utility.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
Back to the original question, if he is good enough, why not find another DI school that thinks of him as a specific position player that is versatile enough that he can also play other positions vs just as a utility player?

It is true that players are drafted out of good DII, DIII, NAIA, and JC’s, but a lot more get drafted out of DI schools each year!

I guess (for now at least) he would really like to go to this DI and play for this Coach (if it all works out), but not at the expense of losing any hope of moving on to Pro ball.

Yes that is a plus to a college coach. The main thing is can he hit ? A utility player who can hit is a big asset. The biggest problem a freshman has is being behind a gret player in a specific spot. They only get limited play and may even depend on breaks like an injury etc. Upper class men get the benefit of the doubt and usually don't give up their position unless they get injured. A utility guy can fill in when needed and may get a break sooner than later.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Yes that is a plus to a college coach. The main thing is can he hit ? A utility player who can hit is a big asset. The biggest problem a freshman has is being behind a gret player in a specific spot. They only get limited play and may even depend on breaks like an injury etc. Upper class men get the benefit of the doubt and usually don't give up their position unless they get injured. A utility guy can fill in when needed and may get a break sooner than later.

Thanks, Bobble, I'm feeling more and more relieved all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
Back to the original question, if he is good enough, why not find another DI school that thinks of him as a specific position player that is versatile enough that he can also play other positions vs just as a utility player?

It is true that players are drafted out of good DII, DIII, NAIA, and JC’s, but a lot more get drafted out of DI schools each year!

I guess (for now at least) he would really like to go to this DI and play for this Coach (if it all works out), but not at the expense of losing any hope of moving on to Pro ball.

That is great!

Since you are leaning toward Bobblehead’s guidance, one of his advice toward college baseball recruiting is go where the money is, his angle is, if the coach truly sees a future for your son in the program he will throw money his way, I don’t think that is totally correct for position players in all cases, but it does have a barometer of the coach’s thoughts.

Don’t lose sight of other advice regarding college athletic recruiting, don't chose a school because of a coach as they may change and chose a school that he would like to attend even if athletics doesn’t work out.

Good Luck!

The main thing is to get your son in the best shap possible and polish his skills.
Be wary of coaches making promises about playing time. All bets are off until the spring season starts and you will be only as good as you play on the field. Each year a new batch of JC transfers and freshmen will be on the hunt for playing time. Be prepared to impress.

Yes I do believe that money is an important factor in chosing a college. It indicates how a coach sees you but doesn't guarentee sucess. It gives you a bit of insurance that you might be around long enough to find out how you will fit in.
My son as a freshman, when he saw all the players at weigh in asked the coach " am I on the team ?" there were way more guys than roster spots. The coach said "I paid way too much for you to have you on the bench ". I guess that is my attitude in a nut shell. You do have to perform regardless. Drafted players with big bonuses get more opotunities than guys who don't . Just a fact of BB life.

If a player can hit there's a place for him in the lineup whether he comes in playing one position or six positions. A friend's son is at an SEC school. He caught all the time until college. He never played facing the plate. He plays first and third in college (three positions if you include DH) to get his bat in the lineup. Once a player is in the lineup he has a shot at getting drafted. As someone noted, you can't impress scouts from the bench.

The term "utility" has a baseball connotation that means good, but not good enough to displace a starter.

From my observations, it also means not enough exposure on the diamond.

If the "utility" role is a short-term gig where an all american is in your main position and you have to bide your time for a season, then maybe it is worth the wait. For example:

Arizona State had a few players drafted in 2008 who hardly played. They were "subs", or utility guys but still managed to get drafted despite limited Spring playing time. If you sign with # 298 in Division 1, that probably won't happen.

The 2008 MAC conference POY, 20 bombs and a .350 batting average DID NOT get drafted as a Junior. The draft is a crapshoot, so ask yourself what you are playing for. The experience, or for the draft?

If you make noise on the playing field in D1-2-3, NAIA or JUCO, they will find you and maybe offer a future opportunity. If they hear you rooting from the bench, they still won't see you.

Start thinking about summer baseball also. Be proactive after your college decision has been made.

Thanks for the advice Slugger. That is another thing about this College is that they get you hooked up with Summer teams. Hopefully being on the field in one spot this Spring will help in that area too.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
If a player can hit there's a place for him in the lineup whether he comes in playing one position or six positions. A friend's son is at an SEC school. He caught all the time until college. He never played facing the plate. He plays first and third in college (three positions if you include DH) to get his bat in the lineup. Once a player is in the lineup he has a shot at getting drafted. As someone noted, you can't impress scouts from the bench.

That sounds good to me!

My son ( 09 ) visited a local D3 school here in the chicago area yesterday to talk to the coaches and check out a fall practice. I was reading the media guide and roster ...turns out one of players was drafted as a junior in the last draft --he returned for senior year this year ..and another current senior is expected to be drafted next year as well. Most likely 2 players from a local D3 midwest program will be drafted next year. I myself watched these guys practice last nite..they were both pretty darn good . Seems to me , now more than ever ..good talent is starting to be spread around the lower ranks --d2 d3 -and good players can and will get drafted .

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
The term "utility" has a baseball connotation that means good, but not good enough to displace a starter.

From my observations, it also means not enough exposure on the diamond.

If the "utility" role is a short-term gig where an all american is in your main position and you have to bide your time for a season, then maybe it is worth the wait.

I don't agree with this as a general concept. I happen to know of one "utility player" who, because he could play 3 positions, ended up playing more games in a minor league season than any other position player, had more hits, led the team in nitting and was voted the team MVP.
The player I referred to earlier from Stanford was one of the very best players on each team in each of the 4 years he started. Because he was so good, he could play positions he could play anyplace there was a need.
Being a quality utility player requires tremendous skill. If you are playing 2B, SS, 3B and outfield, you must have the footwork and focus to play at a high level each day while preparing for a very different challenge.
As I said at the beginning, being a "utility" player in a top program with a reputation of making players better, this can be an attractive option.
If the coach and program do not have that track record, it can also be an excuse.
But to assume the reference to "utility" suggests a less quality of player isn't a concept with which I agree. Often times it truly means a player of even greater skill.

I've been trying to look at this through a Coach's eyes and I just keep coming to the same conclusion. I would love to have a guy that could play multiple spots without any drop-off in defensive skill.

With the problems that injuries cause a team and then you look at academic troubles, players leaving for one reason or another (draft for example), hitting slumps, it seems like a no brainer to me. I look at what he's done for the teams he's played for so far and he has been very valuable to those teams. I look at the Cubs this year and see at least 4 guys that have played multiple positions and it has worked for them so far. Who would have thought Theriot would be the starting SS? He has done a great job.

I know that my Son's High School team this year has only one Catcher that is ready for Varsity ball and I know I wouldn't want to be the Coach that had to worry about that situation everyday.

I would think that most Coach's would love to have guys that could and would be willing to move around if the need arose, but I'm not a College Coach, so I don't know how they think. I'm not a Scout, so I don't know how they think. I'm hoping that many of them do think like me, but that remains to be seen.

Thanks for all the replies so far!

My son has been in the "utility" role most of his life...but in the sense of versatility...never playing the same primary position two seasons in a row since EARLY Little League. In his college's web site, even his position lists "utility."

Here lies the problem that many versatile players have: coaches (as was an issue with us coming out of HS)have no idea WHERE he would project. I could see the same thing happening with scouts...on down the line. Again, though, the KEY is HITTING. If a defensively versatile player CAN HIT...it just makes the coach's life easier knowing he can plug the player in WHERE NEEDED.

Ultimately, I would make a decision based on where the player is likely to get the most quality playing time.

I think the stigma attached to the "utility" term is starting to change, as players such as Ty Wigginton, Brandon Inge, Figgins, DeRosa, and others are playing full-time in MLB moving from position to position. I think you will see much more of it in D1 with the new roster limits...and not just with the players who also pitch.

A guy I know was drafted out of the MAC conf with a 2-9 record. Some scout for the MLB team liked what he saw.
If you think utility means not good enough to start you are under a dilusion. Tell that to Ryan Freel... At 3 million a year he is good enough to start at at least 3 positions. A utility player can start at any of those positions.
You can get drafted from any div of college. Being drafted is a matter of catching the eye of a scout and most colleges have scout days and scouts watch all div of colleges.
I have always said it is who you play against that is more important. If you can perform against a top 25 school and be successful that is impressive. If you play against a school that loses all the time that is not as impressive. It is in fact expected.
As I said you are getting ahead of yourself. Lets see if he can play at college level and even get an offer. He will have a lot of talent to climb over to get the chance to prove himself.
Worrying about the draft is a little premature. Getting drafted is still a long shot when you look at the small % that get to play in MLB and an even longer shot to be a stand out MLB player. My advice is take care of the business in front of you.
I saw thousands of drafted players who never got to the MLB level. Yes I saw several that did like Delgado, Henke, Wells and many others. I also saw some big bonus guys who dissappeared into oblivion.
My son's goal was to play D1 against top teams and that he did. His main goal was to get a degree at a good college where he could enjoy his experience. He has some scouts interested in him and has sice he was 16 but we are not worrying about that. We never did.
One of my son's friends went to Arizona State and was drafted. He is a very talented kid but he doesn't have a great bat compared to many others. He probably got little or no money and I have seen some great players lanquish for 3-4 years in the minors before getting cut or packing it in. I personally would not like my son to do that but rather get his degree and find something he would love to do in the real world.
I watch senior leagues here that are full of amazing talented 20 year olds who had their shot and are playing high level ball after their pro dream is over.
Again I would suggest you stop worrying about labels and concentrate on getting your son into a college he will enjoy.
Joey Votto of the Reds was a catcher and a scout changed him into a 3B player and I believe he is in the outfield now. His bat is the key to his success and not his position. Most of the position players I know have made it to the MLB because of their bats. One guy my son pitched against was a terrible 1st B guy who could flat out mash a ball. He was cut after 4 years in MiLB reaching AAA. My son pitched against him in a MLB tryout for the Royals. He struck him out and a guy ran over to me and said do you know who that was ? I said yes and said he was like any slugger. A sucker for a nasty breaking ball.

Joey Votto

PG that says it all.

Joey was a utility guy who when I 1st saw him was a catcher. He credited Bob Smythe with converting him to a 3B player. Bob was the Toronto district Mariners Scout who ran the Etobicoke Rangers Elite club. He picked Joey up from the Canadian T Birds.