What would be the ruling?

Whether you are playing USSSA or Fed I believe the ruling would be the same. Putting the player back in the wrong spot is an illegal sub. The umpire was incorrect in saying it was too late to do anything about it. In Fed the player is called out and restricted to the dugout. In USSSA I believe the runner is called out and ejected. I said the call was the same and it is in the fact that it is taken care of at the point of discovery.
As a coach, this the time for you to protest. It is a clear case of a rules interpretation difference. You went out and asked for an explanation. Then you give him your understanding of the situation. When you still disagree then tell him you protest. At that point he has to get together with his partner and try to fix the problem or decide they are right. Then it goes to the protest committee.

Edited to say that I'm a slow poster, and was still composing when MST made his post. However, I stand by what I wrote.

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Glove:
I am not sure if we were playing HS or U trip rules.

It is critical to know which ruleset was in force.
USSSA rules describe what substitutions are legal, and that includes re-entry into the same spot in the batting order, but defaults to OBR to determine the action for an illegal sub. OBR has no rule regarding illegal subs (except pitchers), but there is an interpretation which states that the illegal sub is removed from the game. All play which occurred before discovery stands.

In NFHS, the illegal offensive sub is out and restricted to the bench upon discovery (which could be by the umpire, opposing team, scorer, or spectator). Any score by the illegal sub and some advances by other baserunners is nullified. Any outs made will stand. (see 3.1.1) But......
"If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team."

So, if I understood your post correctly, #4 was on third when the umpire took notice of your claim that the substitution was illegal. For USSSA, #4 should have been removed, and replaced by a legal base runner (who is not necessarily B1, and perhaps just as fast as #4), and play would continue. If on the other hand, the umpire didn't take notice until after #4 scored, there is no remedy.

For FED, once the double was hit, #4 has advanced, and the timing of the appeal needs to be before the next pitch. If the appeal was before the next pitch, and there were two out, the inning should have been over.

By the way, are you sure that #4 wasn't a courtesy runner? That would have been legal under USSSA if B1 was the pitcher or catcher.

So should you protest? In principle, you should. But speaking as a dad who has watched many youth baseball tournaments, I'd recommend that you not protest, because you are very unlikely to win, especially if it is USSSA rules. Why not?

First, your team are the only people involved who are unhappy with the result. The other team, the umpires, the tournament staff, and the teams in the following game are all happy that the game finished at around the time limit. That's a lot of pressure to tip the scales in favor of the umpire's ruling.

Secondly, the protest will in all likelihood be decided by the tournament director, who probably doesn't know this particular rule, and doesn't have time to look it up. If he does look it up, the game will surely run over its allotted time.

Thirdly, the umpire erred in allowing the illegal sub. If he is doing his job, and keeping track of subs on the lineup card, the whole situation will be avoided. He'll be embarrassed if overruled by the TD, who has trouble finding umpires at low cost, and wants to back them up whenever he can. On the other hand, the TD knows that however he rules, one team will be happy, and one won't.

The above considerations apply to protests generally, but there is another which applies to your situation. The illegal sub didn't make much difference! As I understand it, #4 was on first with two out, and the next batter hit a double. #4 should have scored on that hit. Maybe he isn't so fast after all. Really, the TD isn't going to believe that very much advantage was gained, and everybody else will be inconvenienced.....

Anyway, ignoring the practical considerations, and just looking at the rules:
If USSSA rules, there is no rule to justify reversing the umpire. I had to look in Baseball Rule Differences to find an interpretation from the PBUC. There is also a recommendation in Jaksa/Roder which is different from the PBUC (although the same in this particular case). The TD won't have these resources at hand, or the inclination to consult them.

If FED rules, you've got a better chance, but the coach had better be able to quickly point to 3.1.1 in the rule book (show it to the TD, not the umpire!).

MST,

Thanks for the explanation. The TD was no help, in fact told us we didn't know the rules.

3finger, (first reply)

You mentioned both NFHS and Fed with different rulings. I thought they were one and the same.

"In NFHS, the illegal offensive sub is out and restricted to the bench upon discovery (which could be by the umpire, opposing team, scorer, or spectator). Any score by the illegal sub and some advances by other baserunners is nullified. Any outs made will stand. (see 3.1.1) But......
"If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team.""
This sounds contradictory, any score is nullified....but has to be discovered before next pitch....doesn't seem possible to have both.

Just to be clear, the run had not scored before discovery.


"By the way, are you sure that #4 wasn't a courtesy runner? That would have been legal under USSSA if B1 was the pitcher or catcher."

It was not a coutesy runner situation.

3Finger, (second reply)

"First your team..." I agree wholeheartily!

"Secondly, the protest....." You hit the nail on the head, the TD told us we didn't know the rules.

"Thirdly, the umpire erred...." The home team scorekeeper (the team batting) was in charge of the book. The umpires would only announce changes, they were not tracking them. Also agree that TD needs these umps for tournaments down the road.

"The above considerations apply to protests generally, but there is another which applies to your situation. The illegal sub didn't make much difference! As I understand it, #4 was on first with two out, and the next batter hit a double. #4 should have scored on that hit. Maybe he isn't so fast after all."

The flyball to CF that was caught was the second out and the play at the plate was the third out. So #4 was pretty fast....but B1 was a sub for another player who could have been re-entered and could have been just as fast as #4.

All in all we played well, it's just a shame our boys lost in the way they did. If we would have been at East Cobb when this happened I would have said we just got homered, but actually it was closer to our home park.

I was lost at re enter

Gold Glove,
Yes, FED and NFHS are the same entity. Rather than writing still more confusing prose, I'll just quote an extract from 3.1.1, and comment that upon discovery, the illegal sub is removed and called out. However, in order to unwind any offensive advancement, discovery must be made before the next pitch.

"For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. An illegal player discovered on defense shall be restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. If a restricted player re-enters the game on offense, he shall be called out immediately and ejected upon discovery by an umpire or either team. If he is a defensive player, he shall be ejected upon discovery by an umpire or either team. The penalty for illegal substitution shall supersede the penalty for batting out of order.
If the player should score a run, advance or cause a play to be made that allows another runner(s) to advance, discovery must be made by an umpire or either team before the first pitch to the next batter of either team. This would invalidate the action of the illegal offensive player. Any out(s)made on the play stands and all other runners return to the base(s) occupied at the time of the pitch.
In a game-ending situation, discovery must be made before all infielders leave the diamond (i.e., all infielders cross the foul lines).
An illegal player on defense shall be replaced immediately upon discovery by the umpire or either team. If an illegal player on defense is involved in a play, and the infraction is discovered by an umpire or either team prior to the first pitch to the next batter of either team, the team on offense has the option to let the play stand or to allow the batter to bat again.
Any player for whom an illegal player substitutes may re-enter only if he is eligible to do so under the re-entry rule (3-1-3).

Maybe the solution is to get some coaches that know and understand the rules they are playing under and the consequences for violations of those rules.

Just my suggestion.

3finger,

My confusion lies in "the next pitch statement." He was discovered to be an illegal substitute after at least one or two batters batted. It was brought to the umpires attention before he scored.

So is it the "next pitch"
a. after the illegal substitution
or
b. after discovery?

Thanks for helping out.

GG

Well, I'm going to quote two plays from the Casebook, which should help make clear when the "next pitch" is, but which in my opinion muddy the understanding of what to do with other base runners and the batter. BTW, there are 2.5 pages of cases for illegal substitutes!
3.1.1 SITUATION G: With two outs and an illegal substitute at second base, B4 hits a home run out of the park. Before the next pitch, the illegal substitute is discovered. RULING: The illegal substitute is called out and restricted to the bench.
No runs score, since the out on the runner at second base was the third out. The home run is nullified. B4 leads off the next inning.

3.1.1 SITUATION Q: With R1 on first base, B2 doubles and, (a) before the next pitch R1 is discovered to be an illegal player, (b) after the next pitch R1 is discovered to be an illegal player. RULING: In both (a) and (b), R1 is out and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

I don't understand why in one case the home run is nullified, and the batter returned to the box, and yet apparently the double is allowed to stand.

Gold Glove, this topic has run well past my level of expertise, and I'm really just parroting material from the BRD or the FED rules and Casebook.