What's the Danger in 'Reaching' TOO Far?

On the stretch from the 6-7 to the 8-9, I don't think that is too much of a reach.

I think where the stretch will come will depend on how disciplined your son is with respect to time management.

The fall is a mini test and then the spring is when the real test starts.

The time allocated to baseball in college steps up in terms of practice, travel, and games.

Take 12 basic hours in the fall and see how it goes.

Most schools have pretty good study hall requirements for incoming freshman.

College isn't that difficult as long as the student attends class and does the work. The key is self discipline and time management skills. It's also important the student not get intimidated. He needs to believe he belongs there. My cousin went to Harvard. He said the only hard thing was getting accepted.

quote:

My cousin went to Harvard. He said the only hard thing was getting accepted.

Bingo. My son attends Dartmouth. During his recruiting visit all the baseball players said it is harder to get accepted into school than it is to graduate. The 'reach' you refer to has more to do with qualifications for admission that it has with keeping pace in class and passing.

quote:

by DBG: The 'reach' you refer to has more to do with qualifications for admission that it has with keeping pace in class and passing.

agree, there's not much difference in undergrad level class difficulty from school to school ...

and as DBG noted some very selective schools (admission wise) see to it that ya graduate once you're in via grade inflation etc.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
On the stretch from the 6-7 to the 8-9, I don't think that is too much of a reach.

I think where the stretch will come will depend on how disciplined your son is with respect to time management.

There lies wisdom. Bless his heart.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
College isn't that difficult as long as the student attends class and does the work.

I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Perhaps often it is not, but certainly not always.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
agree, there's not much difference in undergrad level class difficulty from school to school ...

I saw too many cases of kids flunking out of a major engineering school, then going to other colleges where they instantly excelled to agree with that statement.

There is nothing wrong with "reaching" too far as long as you fully comprehend what you are doing and have a backup if it fails---always make sure you have a sure shot in your pocket, just in case.

D attends very selective Ivy League school. She emailed to me a copy of a paper she had written for one of her classes and I was so impressed with the piece that I said if she didn't get an A++ on it I would be shocked. It was eloquent, precise, grammatically perfect, and would have made excellent material for any major magazine or similar publication. She made a B-. I cannot imagine how good the other's were.

.
Points well taken...

IMO...would likley agree some with FO...Depends entirely upon the student athlete...Some are hardwired to accept nothing less that top of the class...be it baseball or academics, or social life.

Drop one of these into a high Academic school where he may likley struggle, deduct a whole bunch of athletic time from his studies, put him in a reserve baseball roll...and you are looking at some pretty big adaptions to his self concept if he does not excel at all levels. Particularly if he has been a "star " in all respects for his whole life.

Maybe he suddenly does become happy with B's and some C's, and sitting. Maybe not. Again depends upon the player and his current and future goals, and his ability to adapt and persevere.


44
.

You have to look at realistically at his ability and how solid his HS education was. One of my memories from UNH is offering to tutor a kid who couldn't understand why they weren't able to grasp ordinary differential equations despite having had a 4.0 in HS. I think I had about a 2.0 in HS. Then again I didn't show up for class all the time and never did any homework in HS so that just might have affected my GPA a tiny bit.

Once I joined the service and got to work on the flightline in below zero weather my work ethic in school improved a bit.

I don't think any hard worker with decent intelligence is going to have a problem with a top school. On the other hand, they better not expect to do anything other than baseball and studying.

quote:

by O44: Drop one of these into a high Academic school where he may likley struggle, deduct a whole bunch of athletic time from his studies, put him in a reserve baseball roll...and you are looking at some pretty big adaptions to his self concept if he does not excel at all levels. Particularly if he has been a "star " in all respects for his whole life.

Maybe he suddenly does become happy with B's and some C's, and sitting. Maybe not. Again depends upon the player and his current and future goals, and his ability to adapt and persevere.

guess it depends on whether you view the student as a winner or a loser as O44 has


Drop one of these into a high Academic school where he adjusts to the academic rigors at the same time getting spot starts he's earned from the pressure he's put on the upperclass starter who will be gone next year ...

being in line for the starting spot as soph as development continues allows him to shift some focus to his studies with thoughts of getting them well under control ...

there are some pretty big adaptions to his self concept but he has the confidence to excel like he has his whole life every time expectations were raised

B's, C's, and sitting are for someone else


jmo

quote:

I saw too many cases of kids flunking out of a major engineering school ...

There are some majors that don't mix well with college sports due to labs versus time demands. Engineering is one of them.

.
Good twist Bee!...

We agree...Will he adapt? (Though I'd suggest that the term "loser" is a tad harsh. Not every player excels. Not every kid who does is a "loser")

Again..have to know your player.

44
.

quote:

(Though I'd suggest that the term "loser" is a tad harsh. Not every player excels. Not every kid who does is a "loser")

maybe that was a tad harsh


but unlikely the kid in your scenario would have been very heavily recruited

All through JR high and into the beginning of HS, son #1 was in the advanced math class. Each year the teachers counseled us to drop him a level where he would excel, rather than struggling with C's and the occasional B.

We always placed him in the upper math class in spite of their reccomendations. By Junior year he was cruising through all AP classes. Now he plays baseball and is required to take between 18 and 22 hours each semester. He's handling it all well.

Son #2 is nowhere near the student but we were again faced with the math question going into HS, but at a different level. His option was a two period course for math, or a single period for the same course material. The counselors insisted on the two period course. He started out the year with A's and has steadily drifted to low C's. Not because the course is challenging him; the exact opposite, he's not being challenged.

Because of these two lessons, I believe in challenging individuals.

When I was apprenticing in a business that worked on strict deadlines, and being groomed to manage the whole department I was learning, my mentor, who had come out of retirement having spent 50 years running the department, had this advice for me..."There will be days, when you walk in the door, and the first thing that is completely evident, is the fact that you will never be able to make tonights work deadline. If you just sit down and start doing the work, resigned to just doing the best you can, you will be amazed at how many days you actually make that unachievable deadline."

At the school that is on the 8-9 scale, your son would be surrounded by students who have the same rigorous curriculum - they are all in the same boat and all have to put in the study hours. No one is there taking "basket weaving". The players on the baseball team would also be taking the similar hard classes and working hard both in school and baseball. Time management will be the key but everybody is on the same page. I'm guessing your son (at a 8 -9 school) will find himself surrounded by players who are similar to him - good students who love baseball.

Junior College is always an option.I'm prob headed that way to start.It will make me a better player and student going into a 4yr school after that.But thats my opinion,i just dont want to get thrown in to the fire quickly and mess up rather then get feet wet and swim from there.lol

I'll have to agree with RJM here, engineering is different and there are a few other majors that are more difficult to find time for as well. For example, I don't believe they let architecture majors play sports at Cal Poly.

As far as labs though that can be worked around to some degree the first couple years of school unless perhaps you are a ChemE, then you'll have to take your chem labs in sequence. The junior year in engineering gets pretty difficult if you are on sequence, but it still isn't impossible. A lot of kids/parents have to accept a 5 year program if they are going to play sports.

I'm bit lost

since basketweaving is an urban legend from the past could someone give examples of schools in the 1-4 range ... 4-7 range .. and the 7-10 range?

since we've heard from some Ivy parents that Ivy's are normal after a very selective addmittance process we'll call them a level 6-7

I'm anxious to hear where the rest stand, and who the 1-2 & 9-10 schools are

I certainly don't stand among those that consider the tougher schools only harder on admissions. There simply is no way a school with an average 31 ACT on entrance, is competitively the same as an average 21 ACT on entrance.

Employers aren't that stupid that they are overpaying by hundreds of thousands of dollars for graduates of certain schools over others. If it were that even, they'd be bargain shopping.

quote:

by cplz: Employers aren't that stupid that they are overpaying by hundreds of thousands of dollars for graduates of certain schools over others

so calculus at a 31 ATC school is tougher than at a 21 ATC school?

or it must be higher tuition cost = tougher classes?
as parents wouldn't be stupid enough to overpay by hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to certain schools over others

An average lawyer with a JD from Harvard and an average lawyer with a JD from Public State University is basically an "average lawyer".

An average baseball player from Top Ten University and an average baseball player from Number 289 University is an "average baseball player".

You get out of your education what you put into it!!

You get out of baseball what you brought to the field and what you did to improve at it, wherever you play.

I used the phrase "competitively the same".

I did not reference the the subject matter, only the competition for the grade being substantially different.

I do not subcribe to the theory that an average JD is the same from Harvard or Public State. First year salaries of average graduates bear out that the hiring community does not value them equally either.

The challenge that can occur in a classroom of 31 ACTs and discussion of concepts is quite different than that of the school with the 21 ACT. The course material that is covered could be quite similar, however the learning experience can be light years of difference. Again, the hiring communities deference to the 31 ACT grad would constitute agreement on that point from their perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
An average lawyer with a JD from Harvard and an average lawyer with a JD from Public State University is basically an "average lawyer".

Odds are that the gent with the Harvard sheepskin will end up with a better job offer than the PSU grad. At least according to the annual surveys.

But you do have a valid point in that each student should make the most of their education, regardless of what school they attend.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

I do not subcribe to the theory that an average JD is the same from Harvard or Public State. First year salaries of average graduates bear out that the hiring community does not value them equally either.

First of all , read the post, comprehension is key!!

Average is average............I spoke about the individual, not the institution..........
So this is about money, or perceived value, or what is called a "bill of goods" ?

I really don't conclude that there is some secret out there that props one JD over another.

The LAW is the LAW

You can HIT, or you can't

You can pitch, or you can't

What does $$ have to do with labels? Maybe initially, but it is all about PRODUCTION

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

I really don't conclude that there is some secret out there that props one JD over another.

The LAW is the LAW

That is the equivilant of saying that all people that can think, can think and reason equally.

Law, and most things learning, are about absorption, interpretation, and application. That average Lawyer from Harvard has spent his time among some of the most highly intellectual and competitive minds, in discussion, theorizing, working collectively through problems. The PSU student has gone through the same excercise, but not at the same level.

I doubt the hiring community of law firms is dealing with percieved values, bills of goods, but yes, the commodity that determines worth, is money. That worth is based on the candidates ability. That ability was assessed by how the candidate performed amongst his peers, and in the interview process where they actually get to put the candidates intellectual ability to the test.

You're right, it is about production. For over a hundred years, with their dollars, law firms have told us that they value the average Harvard law student over the PSU student, because of their ability to produce.

quote:

by cplz: I did not reference the the subject matter, only the competition for the grade being substantially different

you are confused ... there is no competition for grades and your logic is bogus
the days "limiting" high grades by grading on a curve and flunking "customers" out of college are loong gone

and yes, because employers do overpay hirees for perception & prestige, students & parents will overpay for prestigious colleges, allowing prestious colleges to keep charging inflated tuition & fees


and btw, studies show that ACT/SAT scores are not good predictors of success, either in the classroom or in the workplace


not to pick on Ivies, they just seem to have been the focus of attention recently ..
and as the article notes, "grade inflation" is prevailent everywhere

quote:

USA Today:
a report found recently that eight out of every 10 Harvard students graduate with honors and nearly half receive A's in their courses ... is grade inflation worth worrying about?

professors comments -
smart students probably deserve really high grades ...
tough graders could alienate their students ...
tough grading makes a student less likely to get into graduate school, which could make Harvard look bad in college rankings ...

All are among reasons cited by professors in explaining why grade inflation is nothing to worry about. And all are insufficient justification for the practice. College-grade inflation — which is probably an extension of the well-documented grade inflation in high schools — is a problem. And it extends well beyond Harvard.

Fewer than 20% of all college students receive grades below a B-minus, according to a study released this week by the American Academy of Arts & Sciences. That hardly seems justified at a time when a third of all college students arrive on campus so unprepared that they need to take at least one remedial course.

Bee> - those are good points.

I also agree that An Ivy league or other type education (e.g., military academy) will likely open more doors initially but there are other things that also factor into the equation. Things like what was your undergraduate degree in, what was your GPA, did you work or have some other extra-curricular activity in school. Was there community service involved.

Here is an interesting note from Scott Boras the multi-millionaire lawyer/agent:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/29/071029fa_fact_mcgrath

quote:

Boras was a strong student—a scholar-athlete in the original, irony-free sense of the phrase—and he spurned inquiries from Ivy League schools, which he couldn’t afford, in favor of a scholarship to the University of the Pacific, in nearby Stockton, just outside San Francisco....

Boras got his law degree in 1982, and took a job with the Chicago firm Rooks, Pitts & Poust, doing medical-malpractice work, in which he defended drug companies against class-action suits—arguably an even less popular job, in the public consciousness, than representing A-Rod. But baseball seemed to follow him even as he set about leaving it behind. During his job hunt, he had interviewed with a dozen different firms around the country, and had had a recurring experience. “I sat down, they looked at my résumé—I have twelve years of schooling—and what do they want to talk about?” he said. “Baseball.”

Krak - the answer to your question seems obvious. The danger is that your kid could flunk out or have a poor GPA. It is impossible to tell because a 1-10 grading system is too nebulous to answer on this end. I don't see how message board responses can possibly help you make this decision. It is one you and your son will have to make based on information you have received. I believe the best source of information is likely from the college admission counselors themselves. They ought to be able to analyze your son's background and provide some guidance whether or not he could handle the rigors of the University plus baseball at the same time. Maybe they have an outstanding tutor/mentor system there and it would sway things in your son's favor. A huge factor in all this is what is his undergrad degree going to be in. Some degrees, no matter what the institution are going to tax him. One way to buffer the risk is to take a lighter course load. This unfortunately is a more expensive solution. Good luck.

quote:

and yes, because employers do overpay hirees for perception & prestige, students & parents will overpay for prestigious colleges, allowing prestious colleges to keep charging inflated tuition & fees

example:
Miami (Oh), concerned that their tuition was too reasonable for a prestige univerity long tabbed as a "public Ivy" essentially doubled their tuition & fees (then quietly discounted rates for in-state students)

result? ... a big increase in an already good % out of state enrollment

was their ave. ACT affected?

will they give more "A"s?

did the bursar add more staff to count the money?

.

Off topic but...

quote:

But baseball seemed to follow him even as he set about leaving it behind. During his job hunt, he had interviewed with a dozen different firms around the country, and had had a recurring experience. “I sat down, they looked at my résumé—I have twelve years of schooling—and what do they want to talk about?” he said. “Baseball.”

YEE HAW!...My very 18 year existence as an overbearing, pushy, self absorbed, childhood stealing, Ogre has been justified!

Just kidding.

But never viewed college ball as route to MLB...but rather as a lifetime exerience, teacher and "door opener". So maybe, in part, I AM justified!

44
.