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when a team "plays up" a level is bad idea. advice needed

ballisticballistic10+ posts
I've been lurking on this exellent site a for a couple years now. Heres the odd situation we are in.. if anyone has dealt with similar situation, from either a parent or coachs viewpoint, i am all ears.

Son is 14, trying out for a 13/14 team that is forming either a double AA or triple AAA rep team. Our profound concern is that at tryouts last weekend there was about 13 kids only, and of the 13 perhaps only 4 at the most are solid AAA players. They are also the oldest kids. My son is one of them. The other kids are all 13 year olds, only 2 of them played AAA last year. Three others are about AA caliber, the other 4 single-A calibers (cannot throw ball from SS postion to first-literally, rarely hit ball in BP, afraid to field hard grounders).

Legitamate AAA teams in our league are mostly 14 year olds, with maybe 2-3 thirteen yr olds on a team. They almost ALL played AAA ball the previous year(s). Pitching is commonly low to mid 70 mph, with a few players that touch 80mph (54 ft distance). This is very competitive ball. You see where this is going?

Our team Mgr has indicated we are going to play AAA this year NO MATTER WHAT! Last year's team did play about .400 on the season, but they were a much bigger, and older team, with only three 13 yr olds. Our group this year, as it stands, I will lay money on this... will be close to winless in our 50 game season. This group should clearly, clearly form a double AA team only, and not attempt to compete in the elite AAA division. It would be suicide.. blowout after blowout. Seen it before, but on a lesser scale. As a double AA team this bunch would likely be about a .400 club, which is respectable of course.

Heres the bottom line: we want no part of this. This does not in any way, shape or form "develop players" by "playing up" etc. In fact, the opposite is true IMHO. Fact- we would be mercied regularly, players will get only one at bat before game is done, maybe 2 for the leadoff hitters. Our top pitchers will get overused. The few players we have that can hit the ball against this level of pitching will be left stranded. Weaker players will flub routine plays. Long hot season, not much fun.

We (my son) wants to released from this team, so he can play for another team in the league that has a legitimate AAA team, where development and FUN will happen. I don't think the coach will release us though, why should he? It appears this is all about keeping the program going til next year, as there is a much larger group of players coming up. I think this is the rub.

The only way the league brass would normally release a player is if for example OUR home team only fields a double AA, then our team MUST release him if he seeks to play AAA for a neighboring club.

Need help fast. thanks in advance.
Last edited {1}
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M Missouri-BB-Dad100+ posts
ballistic

Your information is a bit confusing. Is this a league that plays 50 games a year or is this a team that plays tournaments each weekend sanctioned by different youth baseball organizations? Does the AA & AAA signify age bracket or level of play in a given age bracket such as USSSA? Have the kids already signed contracts? I assume they have not since you just went to tryouts. This information and other information would help us better understand your situation.

That being said, teams play up all the time. It's good to play better competition most of the time. You're right, however, that it is not such a good idea to get your brains beat every time out. It's tough to make any suggestions with the info you gave but there must be a way move to another team this early especially since you just attended a try-out.
ballisticballistic10+ posts
thanks for the reply. i'll try and clarify.
Its a league with about 14 AAA club teams. They play about 50 games, against each other, including tourneys. April til Aug.

AA and AAA is skill level, not age brackets. They both are comprised of 13/14, although triple AAA tends to be mostly 14yr olds (better/stronger of course). Where AA generally younger, mostly 13's.

Each club is from a different nearby city. So we are enrolled in our club/city. We could appeal to the umbrella organization to release us to play for another club, but likely that would fail. If our club chose to play double AA, what they should do, then the umbrella organization would instantly release us, they always allow kids to play up on another team.

I agree that playing up is fine, if its within reach. If you can play .400 or even .250, that can be ok. But we are talking minus .100 folks. The issue i guess really is... is it "ethical" for lack better term, for a team manager to play up for the sole purpose or benefit of his next years team, at the expense of the present team? In other words, the 10 younger kids on this team will be exposed to AAA ball, so that next year they will play again on this team and have experience under they're belt. But who really get hosed here is the three 14 yr olds, all they are getting is a "development year", complete with the limited at-bats they will get that goes along with getting trounced every game.
CF Chuck Faulkner10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ballistic:
The issue i guess really is... is it "ethical" for lack better term, for a team manager to play up for the sole purpose or benefit of his next years team, at the expense of the present team? In other words, the 10 younger kids on this team will be


Why don't you see if he will play AA with a mix of AAA/AA tournaments to get the younger boys a little experience at the next level. If not, I would find another team even if it ment going outside of the USSSA umbrella. Good luck!
ballisticballistic10+ posts
thx for the feedbacks.
I am leaning toward finding another place to play.
Theres little league option but its mostly house league. I can look further into it. Homework.. well actually I was aware that this situation might happen before the tryouts started, but I am suprised that only 13 kids showed for tryouts. Last year there was 30. This group (my sons year) has always been a really small group of kids. This year even yet smaller.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
welcome to the board

while I do appreciate your concern, I don't really share it.
quote:
This does not in any way, shape or form "develop players" by "playing up" etc. In fact, the opposite is true IMHO. Fact- we would be mercied regularly
your premise is backaswords, and in fact that's exactly what playing up does

when you get to hs or college you'll be invited to compete w/against players 3-4+ yrs older -
those who have always played in their own age slot are at a huge disadvantage and more likely to find another interest

and frankly I'm stunned that some would advise making a change based on a 1 yr age difference -

however considering NOT AGE but skills, I could agree going with a change if they are as bad as you describe -

my suggestion is to find a team where you'll likely have guys that can throw from ss to 1b in the air & field a grounder - play up to 16U if that's what it takes

hope that helps & good luck
Last edited by Bee>
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ballistic:
Last year's team did play about .400 on the season, but they were a much bigger, and older team, with only three 13 yr olds.
From that I assume you completely accept the rhetoric that skill is based almost completely on age and size.

Our group this year, as it stands, I will lay money on this... will be close to winless in our 50 game season.
That’s a pretty big assumption. While you may be correct that the team will not have a winning season, assuming they will be “close to winless” is a pretty big leap. With kids that age, they usually progress very quickly, and a 50 game season is a long time.

This group should clearly, clearly form a double AA team only, and not attempt to compete in the elite AAA division. It would be suicide.. blowout after blowout. Seen it before, but on a lesser scale. As a double AA team this bunch would likely be about a .400 club, which is respectable of course. I honestly believe you’re being far too negative against your team, and far too positive about the other teams.

If there’s 3 divisions and your team is as bad as you imply and should still be in the middle division, that low division must be completely pathetic!

Heres the bottom line: we want no part of this. This does not in any way, shape or form "develop players" by "playing up" etc. In fact, the opposite is true IMHO.
If all is truly as you say, I’ll agree that it will not do a whole lot to develop most of the players.

Fact- we would be mercied regularly, players will get only one at bat before game is done, maybe 2 for the leadoff hitters. Our top pitchers will get overused. The few players we have that can hit the ball against this level of pitching will be left stranded. Weaker players will flub routine plays. Long hot season, not much fun. Sorry, I think that’s overstating what would happen.

We (my son) wants to released from this team, so he can play for another team in the league that has a legitimate AAA team, where development and FUN will happen.
Sounds to me as though you didn’t do all the homework you should have, but that doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. Try to find another place to play.

I don't think the coach will release us though, why should he? It appears this is all about keeping the program going til next year, as there is a much larger group of players coming up. I think this is the rub. It continues to sound as though you didn’t think things completely through before you committed the boy.

The only way the league brass would normally release a player is if for example OUR home team only fields a double AA, then our team MUST release him if he seeks to play AAA for a neighboring club. You should have asked the league before you came here looking for help. The only thing I can see anyone here giving you for advise is either to gut the season out, or quit and find another team.

I agree that playing up is fine, if its within reach. If you can play .400 or even .250, that can be ok. But we are talking minus .100 folks.
I still have to believe you’re being very pessimistic.

The issue i guess really is... is it "ethical" for lack better term, for a team manager to play up for the sole purpose or benefit of his next years team, at the expense of the present team? It is if that’s what’s really happening. You haven’t indicated whether the majority of the team feels as you do, of if you’re in a minority position. I find it difficult to believe that if the majority of parents and players feel as you do, that enough pressure can’t be put on the manager to make him change.

In other words, the 10 younger kids on this team will be exposed to AAA ball, so that next year they will play again on this team and have experience under they're belt. But who really get hosed here is the three 14 yr olds, all they are getting is a "development year", complete with the limited at-bats they will get that goes along with getting trounced every game. Again, I think you’re assuming the very worst case scenario, and that’s seldom what happens. But, if you are in the majority as far as the feelings on the team goes and can’t get the manager to agree, you have no other choice but to quit!

Chalk it up as a lesson learned, and press on. At 13/14, this isn’t the season that will either make or break his “career”.

You needed to make sure all of this stuff was decided long before you committed to the team! It doesn’t mean you’re a fool or a bad guy, it just means you learned a lesson.


Homework.. well actually I was aware that this situation might happen before the tryouts started, but I am suprised that only 13 kids showed for tryouts. Last year there was 30. This group (my sons year) has always been a really small group of kids. This year even yet smaller. Well, I’m glad to see you’re human like the rest of us. We’ve all made mistakes when it comes to sports for the kids. Sometimes those mistakes are made very early on, and sometimes much later, but they don’t normally mean the end of a budding career.

Good luck!
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
I agree with BEE> completely.
Having gone through a similar city leauge and playing up it was a great benefit.
To me those rules of having players locked in to play for their city is neccessary to stop people from jumping ship and give the programs some stability resulting generally in a better league over all.
Everytime a parent/kid thinks he is playing on a sub par team they want to jump ship. At 13 you are just beginning to become a ball player and may be on the top of the players one year and the bottom the next.
I am surpried also that the same guys recommending jumping ship would be horified if you did that to your HS. Curious.
ballisticballistic10+ posts
My son has been on lots of teams that played up a notch. Usually it was beneficial. One year though (2 yrs ago), we played up with a pretty thin lineup... we had ONE win on the season. We beat a team that had only 2 wins that season. Did kids develop? No way. Often one at-bat per game each player. I understand playing up is good... but only to a point, then it becomes bad. Those who have experienced this on both sides will understand this.

I reread my posts, I see some emotion and anger there. My bad. I probably overstated somewhat. My primary point about playing too far beyond a teams skill level I will maintain.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by ballistic: we had ONE win on the season... Did kids develop? No way. Often one at-bat per game each player. I understand playing up is good... but only to a point, then it becomes bad.
focusing on "playing up" has got you barking up the wrong tree

with all due respect you may want to re-read your own posts & explain exactly what sort development you expect by participating in a 14U league with guys that cannot throw from ss to 1b, field a grounder or hit bp pitching

quote:
by ballistic: My primary point about playing too far beyond a teams skill level I will maintain
that's a great point and you may have nailed the problem with that statement ...
the team you're describing would seem likely to have the same mercys, low ab #s, poor won/loss record vs good 12U teams

good luck Smile
Last edited by Bee>
ballisticballistic10+ posts
[with all due respect you may want to re-read your own posts & explain exactly what sort development you expect by participating in a 14U league with guys that cannot throw from ss to 1b, field a grounder or hit bp pitching ]
Bee>
The AAA league this team is seeking to enter is highly skilled, very competitve league. I am saying the team my son tryed out for does not belong in that league, they would even have their hands full in the AA league. I also stated earlier that *some* of the tryout players canot throw the ball as far as first base. But four of the players can rip lasers to first, and can bang out homeruns. But 4 players dont make a team, does it?

So although you misunderstood my post (my bad), you sum it up nicely in saying [ exactly what sort development you expect by participating in a 14U league with guys that cannot throw from ss to 1b, field a grounder or hit bp pitching ?] Exactly! Thats my point. What you describe is this tryout team, not the league. The league is extremely strong, and this team would have no place in it. And yes, the 12 yr old team my son played on 2 years ago would likely beat this team. (by the way, my son played for the top 12/under team in the country 2yrs ago, and were undefeated in the Canadian Nationals Championship Series to take home gold medals.)
Last edited by ballistic
ballisticballistic10+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ballistic:
Last year's team did play about .400 on the season, but they were a much bigger, and older team, with only three 13 yr olds.
From that I assume you completely accept the rhetoric that skill is based almost completely on age and size.
No. At this age, one year *generally*, but not always, makes a big difference in strength.

Our group this year, as it stands, I will lay money on this... will be close to winless in our 50 game season.
That’s a pretty big assumption. While you may be correct that the team will not have a winning season, assuming they will be “close to winless” is a pretty big leap. With kids that age, they usually progress very quickly, and a 50 game season is a long time.
Granted.

This group should clearly, clearly form a double AA team only, and not attempt to compete in the elite AAA division. It would be suicide.. blowout after blowout. Seen it before, but on a lesser scale. As a double AA team this bunch would likely be about a .400 club, which is respectable of course. I honestly believe you’re being far too negative against your team, and far too positive about the other teams.
If there’s 3 divisions and your team is as bad as you imply and should still be in the middle division, that low division must be completely pathetic!
the low div. would be mainly rec players, or new players, or players with health issues.
Heres the bottom line: we want no part of this. This does not in any way, shape or form "develop players" by "playing up" etc. In fact, the opposite is true IMHO.
If all is truly as you say, I’ll agree that it will not do a whole lot to develop most of the players.

Fact- we would be mercied regularly, players will get only one at bat before game is done, maybe 2 for the leadoff hitters. Our top pitchers will get overused. The few players we have that can hit the ball against this level of pitching will be left stranded. Weaker players will flub routine plays. Long hot season, not much fun. Sorry, I think that’s overstating what would happen.
perhaps...
Last edited by ballistic
B Bee>1,000+ posts
soo, if the team is in the "tryout" stage

A) why worry about poorly skilled players who have not made the team?

B) looking back on our experience of "team tryouts" in a variety of league situations over the yrs, I'm at a loss to figure what kind of "player contract" or commitment documents we'd have signed before tryouts were complete which would require a release if we chose another team


btw, we did face some very good Canadian teams over the yrs in Detroit or Welland ...
our success was due in part to Canadian runs scored being worth only 74% of an American run at that time Eek
Last edited by Bee>
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by ballistic: But four of the players can rip lasers to first, and can bang out homeruns. But 4 players dont make a team, does it?
many hs teams would be envious of that team make-up ...


you put the good arms at 3B, SS, CF, & P
put the chubby slow kid at C ("Hambino" in Sandlot)
spread the others out & give 'em extra practice
meanwhile teach em to bunt, crowd the plate & lean into inside pitches while spacing your big hitters around them thru-out the line-up ... you'll be fine Wink
Last edited by Bee>
B brod100+ posts
Wait a minute - Couldn't this whole question be rephrased - Can I jump ship if my son is placed on a bad team? I think the answer is no.

We preach about character and team all over the HSBBweb, but here it is... Can Dad stand to see his son's team get wiped out and kids make errors, and fumble throws and get overmatched at the plate? How can we guarantee our son is always on a terrific team? C,mon - everyone knows the answer to that one. You can't.

When our son was 13 he was picked for a team that looked like the Bad News Bears, and I realized after the first practice that the coach knew less than most of the kids about baseball. Their were about 4 good players, a few adequate ones, and the rest were disasters - bad attitudes, poor skills, kids who had a hard time playing catch. To make a long story short, that team improved every game, and battled until the last out in the championship game, and my son never had more fun playing baseball. So you never know...

The only time to leave your rec league for travel ball is when your son's skill level exceeds that of his teammates and he needs to do so to get better. From your post, it sounds like you haven't got to that point yet. Playing up one year is no big deal. The bottom line is always whether your son's skill level improves. Sounds like he will get a lot of playing time and be a leader on that team. How can that be bad? Stay on the team, play up, take your lumps, don't poison the well with your son, and your son will learn a valuable lesson about life and sports.
P pfbear13100+ posts
What about talking to the coach and asking him to schedule some tnmts in the US? We've played many games against teams from all over Burlington, Welland, Hamilton, Toronto and have always had great experiences.

Now to the bigger problem. The coach wanst to play AAA beause he wants next year's team to get experience this season. Unfortunately, your son won;t be in the mix when this pays off. What about asking for him to be allowed to play up on the AA team in the next age group?

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