When an Umpire gets unsolicited "help"

I don't think I've ever seen the field umpire offer help without being asked.  That being said, I'm fairly sure the home plate umpire has the authority on whether his call stands on balls and strikes.....so in this case, he had it...and kept it.   I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

Comment 9.02(c) indicates that:

"The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help...Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing." (emphasis added).

That's always the way I've seen it as well. Usually, you see the catcher simply point to the bu and get a call rather than ask the pu to as,k as you do with other appeals ,because it is seen as a right of the defense.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when those two had their post game...  Generally speaking, the FU is only supposed to respond to a query from the PU. The "mechanic" is to point and ask with your left hand... Since the right is supposed to be used for a strike call...

FYI: There is no 9.02(c) in NFHS (OP)... There is 10-1-4: "Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. But if there is reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made. The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.  Also, 10-1-4(a) - "The UIC sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter's "half swing" is such as to be called a strike. As an aid in deciding, the umpire may note whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body of the batter, but the final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball".

JohnF posted:

 

FYI: There is no 9.02(c) in NFHS (OP)... There is 10-1-4:

9.02(c) is (well, was -- the rules have been reorganized as of last year, and the new number is 8.02(c) CMT) the OBR rule.

And, this is one of the (many) differences between the codes.  Under OBR, the plate umpire MUST ask for help (if asked); under FED the plate umpire MAY ask for help.  Still, it's a good practice to "always" do so.

If I were the PU in the OP, I would take the BU's input and have it be a strike (unless there's more to the story).

As our assignor says - no one ever practices a check swing during BP or outside a game.  The batter was fooled - think about it - who now has the advantage?

As mentioned in the OP, the governing rules were NFHS.  So, the OBR citation has no bearing.  As mentioned by others, in NFHS an umpire is never compelled to ask for help, even with the check swing situation.  It may be best practice to do so, but it's not required. The FU screwed up and responded immediately to the defensive coach's request for appeal ... rather than wait for the PU to request the FU's help.

I believe that the PU was in a bad situation.  It wasn't close to a strike.  Batter definitely did not offer at the pitch.  No win for the PU.  PU had to choose to stick with his original call and ignore the FU who errantly blurted out his own interpretation OR accept the FU's "help" and enforce a blatantly crappy call.

It sounds like it was handled correctly though.  Just because the FU gave a verbal judgment in contradiction to the original call by the PU, it did not have an official effect on the call.  That is, the PU was not compelled to change his call simply because the FU offered a second opinion.

Thanks.

Hijack my own thread.  On OBR, the operative portion of the above citation is "Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing."

What if the PU was damn sure that the batter didn't offer.  It was a ball.  Definitely.  But, by rule, he was forced to "refer to" the FU for his judgment.  So, the PU grudgingly asks and FU's judgment was a strike.  Can the PU then reject the judgment?  Hey, I referred to the FU, got his opinion/judgment, considered it, and then decided to stay with my original call of a ball?

I can't imagine this happening, but, technically speaking, could it happen?  Is the PU who *is* compelled to ask for help by OBR also compelled to enforce the new judgment?

Thanks.

Even under FED rules, though, it's quite common for the catcher to immediately point to the bu on a check swing and I've never seen the bu in high school games not respond. I think the situation described above, regardless of rule set or obligations has become a normal baseball thing; a possible check swing isn't called a strike, the catcher/manager points down to the base ump who makes a call, everybody accepts the call, and the game moves on. It's as much habit and tradition as anything else.

roothog66 posted:

Even under FED rules, though, it's quite common for the catcher to immediately point to the bu on a check swing and I've never seen the bu in high school games not respond. I think the situation described above, regardless of rule set or obligations has become a normal baseball thing; a possible check swing isn't called a strike, the catcher/manager points down to the base ump who makes a call, everybody accepts the call, and the game moves on. It's as much habit and tradition as anything else.

If BU is responding to anyone other than PU, he's wrong.

This might be a holdover from the old days...I dunno...but I saw it a lot more when I started over 20 years ago than I do now, and it is now trained that only PU's requests are to be acknowledged.

Matt13 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Even under FED rules, though, it's quite common for the catcher to immediately point to the bu on a check swing and I've never seen the bu in high school games not respond. I think the situation described above, regardless of rule set or obligations has become a normal baseball thing; a possible check swing isn't called a strike, the catcher/manager points down to the base ump who makes a call, everybody accepts the call, and the game moves on. It's as much habit and tradition as anything else.

If BU is responding to anyone other than PU, he's wrong.

This might be a holdover from the old days...I dunno...but I saw it a lot more when I started over 20 years ago than I do now, and it is now trained that only PU's requests are to be acknowledged.

I see the catchers point down to the BU requesting help, but only when the PU would subsequently point down to the BU, would the BU respond.  I've seen catchers point down to the BU, the PU will make no motion or acknowledgement of the request, and the BU will stand motionless, abstaining, allowing the PU call to stand.

I don't recall ever seeing the BU respond just to a catcher's request to help the PU.

Nuke83 posted:

Matt13 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Even under FED rules, though, it's quite common for the catcher to immediately point to the bu on a check swing and I've never seen the bu in high school games not respond. I think the situation described above, regardless of rule set or obligations has become a normal baseball thing; a possible check swing isn't called a strike, the catcher/manager points down to the base ump who makes a call, everybody accepts the call, and the game moves on. It's as much habit and tradition as anything else.

If BU is responding to anyone other than PU, he's wrong.

This might be a holdover from the old days...I dunno...but I saw it a lot more when I started over 20 years ago than I do now, and it is now trained that only PU's requests are to be acknowledged.

I see the catchers point down to the BU requesting help, but only when the PU would subsequently point down to the BU, would the BU respond.  I've seen catchers point down to the BU, the PU will make no motion or acknowledgement of the request, and the BU will stand motionless, abstaining, allowing the PU call to stand.

I don't recall ever seeing the BU respond just to a catcher's request to help the PU.

Could be. It may just be that once the catcher points, my sightline switches to the base ump and I miss the pu pointing down. However, I can never remember a time when an "appeal" to the base ump on a non-called check swing was not honored.

I don't think many umps think of this as an appeal the same way they would, say asking if a foot was pulled at first.

I have never denied a request to get help on a checked swing, and I have trouble imagining a situation in which I wouldn't accept additional information when it is so easily available. Even if I'm sure, it's easier to ask than explain why I don't want to ask. Asking takes two seconds; defending a choice not to ask could cause problems all night long.

However, I do care about the process.

Last week, the coach of a 16U team came across as the kind of guy who thought the game would be improved by having it played under his jurisdiction:  took his sweet time coming to the plate conference while all the other participants waited, wanted to argue about how many baseballs he was supposed to provide, wanted to argue about one of the travel league's local rules, wanted to argue for a balk call on a perfectly clean throw to an occupied base. Emitted a querulous, unpleasant vibe all night--even though his team was comfortably ahead. You know the type.

At one point, he wanted a second opinion on a checked swing and very pointedly told his catcher not to check with me but to make his own appeal direct to the base umpire.

So the catcher pointed down to the base umpire, who gave a commendable impersonation of a statue.

There we stood for a few awkward seconds. I didn't ask for help because no one had asked me to. My partner didn't offer any help because I hadn't asked him.

Eventually, I broke the stalemate. "Your coach was mistaken. You do need to ask me. Would you like me to get a second opinion?"

"Yes, Sir."

"Mike, did he go?"

"No, he did not!"

As the base umpire you should not respond until the UIC asks for help! This should be gone over in your PreGame !!!

That plate umpire has to ask.  The field umpire making a call w/o being asked is not a good mechanic but has been done in the past.  The PU most likely will over rule the opinion of the FU but can accept it.  

Yeah ambiguous.....