When to ice?

This could turn into an interesting thread since there are some "ice - no ice" opinions out there that I am curious about. I think that it is more important to get a good sweat up and the blood flowing after pitching than icing. Stationary bike would be first choice but probably unrealistic, so I would make sure he gets a good run in between games and then make a decision on icing after game two.

I have not researched this too much. I may go check out AMSI and come back later with a post on it. Curious what other opinions are on the whole icing question.

Ice or not to ice is a personal preference. My question is why would he play another game after playing third then pitch 3 innings?

What happened to rest and recovery?

We are on the side of not icing unless there is pain. Not soreness. My son uses a body blade for 15 to 30 minutes after pitching. It seems to work real well and get the blood flowing. He's been fine doing this except for one outing where he was allowed to throw almost 150 pitches. It took an extra day or two to recover and that will never happen again.

quote:

I have not researched this too much. I may go check out AMSI and come back later with a post on it. Curious what other opinions are on the whole icing question.

Can honestly say son has never been an icer (although one coach in high school suggested he do it after their hour and a half bus ride home )
and has never had any arm problems. Son is now a freshman in college and I'm not sure how their coaching staff feels about icing.

OK just copied this off the AMSI website regarding arm care. I left in the pitch count recommendations for bb1:

Currently there is no scientific data that supports icing your arm after pitching. There is only one study in baseball players in Japan, and they concluded that ice only works if you do it together with some type of aerobic exercise for the arm. Many baseball experts that we have contacted recommend icing the arm only if there is pain or soreness and also they strongly recommend engaging in some type of aerobic exercise after pitching. Many believe that icing decreases blood flow to the affected area and slows down the natural healing process. We at AMSI are currently involved in a study with college level pitchers that hopefully will answer many of these questions. For young baseball players we recommend to follow USA baseball pitch counts and 3 months of arm rest in a year.
The current USA Baseball recommended limits are:

9-10 year old pitchers
50 pitches per game
75 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
2000 pitches per year

11-12 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
100 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year

13-14 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
125 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year

I wouldn't recommend icing between games. If he's a bit sore after pitching you want to know it so he doesn't hurt his arm further. If he does play the second game and normally ices after pitching then I'd say go ahead and ice after the second game.

I don't think there's any one right answer on this.

When to ice?

When your drink gets a little to warm.

quote:

13-14 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
125 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year

Did anybody else notice that 3000 pitches divided by 75 per start equals 40 starts? Are there really 13-14 year old kids that start 40 games in a year? My son is 13 and he plays 9 months out of the year. I doubt if he gets 20 appearances on the mound per year and I know he throws less than 1,000 pitches for the entire 9 month period. We probably play 17 tournaments and a league in the fall and spring. Just wow.

And to stay on topic, we wouldn't ice between games. Running and bands.

Thanks all. I will suggest not to ice between games. I will suggest he run and do bands between games.

TPM - the team is in a HS tournament this weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:
Thanks all. I will suggest not to ice between games. I will suggest he run and do bands between games.

TPM - the team is in a HS tournament this weekend.

Makes sense. Also make sure he focuses on the "decelerators" portion of the bands.(reverse direction to throwing) Alan Jaeger has pointed out that these are particularly important after pitching.

BOF
Thanks. I've been to that website many times and am well aware of the pitch counts. My son never ever again will he approach that many pitches. It was totally unacceptable and I should have stopped it. I was there, my son wanted to finish like all pitchers would. The coach should have said great job let us finish it for you and taken him out. He didn't and I didn't and it will never ever happen again. He knows from Coach May what to say and since I am not always there I'll trust him to follow it.

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:

TPM - the team is in a HS tournament this weekend.

I don't see why that would matter.

TPM

I feel you!!!

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:
TPM

I feel you!!!

Very difficult to do over the internet. You might be giving teh wrong impression here.

As you know I am into a players health. Beginning of season and working the arm that way makes no sense to me. IMO, the rules should go out the window for two games in a day when your player pitches. There is not someone else to play third?

Oh I get it, it's a tourney, the W must be more important.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gimages:
TPM
QUOTE]

As you know I am into a players health. Beginning of season and working the arm that way makes no sense to me. IMO, the rules should go out the window for two games in a day when your player pitches. There is not someone else to play third?

Oh I get it, it's a tourney, the W must be more important.

OK now that we got the Ice / No Ice thing sorted out based on TPM's comment, I would like to morph this into how much baseball is too much?

Point is that double headers are common. Tournament ball with 4-6 games in a weekend are common. How much is too much?

Frankly pitching 3 and playing the next game at 3rd does not strike me as too much or too hard on an arm. I think it is pretty straight forward for pitchers and pitch counts etc, but what about playing games after pitching? I get it that you don't want your pitchers catching or playing SS after a full game, but what about other positions? He would probably would throw 45 pitches in the first three and then a 3rd baseman might get 3-5 game throws in, plus some warm up throws prior to each inning.

Curious what others think.

Icing is good for reducing swelling. It helps recovery time. I always marvel at the debate around this subject. It will not harm you but you should ice for a short period of time ,remove it for a while and then do it again.
Will you have a problem if you don't ice ? No but it helps recovery time .

BOF,
Depends on whether the player is a starting pitcher but seems he is needed in relief. Which is ok, to go from third to relief but to pitch and throw again a few hours later? That's ok though if you all feel comfortable with that. But I am not sure that grimages does or he wouldn't have asked that question, he'd leave it up to the coach. I am sure it all depends on the scenerio. He might get lucky and just throw 9 pitches.

I commented originally because there was a concern about ice, which seemed silly to me because there was no concern about the above scenerio? You are trusting that coach knows what he is doing putting him in after he pitches but not sure he knows about icing?

No other person to play third? How do you know how much he will throw in a game? I am not going to get into this discussion much further, but IMO, it's so easy to see why so many young players suffer with arm/shoulder issues.

Pre season (?) tourneys are good, it gives everyone a chance to play. Common sense is that you ease into your season. But for most parents and players, it's more important not to waste a single moment on the bench. JMO.

OK I am going to break off the pitching then playing as another thread.

BHD read the information from AMSI. Just in case you missed it

"Currently there is no scientific data that supports icing your arm after pitching. There is only one study in baseball players in Japan, and they concluded that ice only works if you do it together with some type of aerobic exercise for the arm. Many baseball experts that we have contacted recommend icing the arm only if there is pain or soreness and also they strongly recommend engaging in some type of aerobic exercise after pitching. Many believe that icing decreases blood flow to the affected area and slows down the natural healing process. We at AMSI are currently involved in a study with college level pitchers that hopefully will answer many of these questions."

Based on the thinking of the leading medical group on baseball arm care (and others) The current consensus is that it does not help recovery time and in fact may hinder it.

quote:

I commented originally because there was a concern about ice, which seemed silly to me because there was no concern about the above scenerio? You are trusting that coach knows what he is doing putting him in after he pitches but not sure he knows about icing?

Understand now where you were coming from.

I have to actually get some work done before I get out of here for the week-end so feel free to start pitching then playing thread or I will do it when I have a chance.

BOF Jr has first scrimage game of the year and will get a chance to throw a ball instead of bounce one for the first time this year.

BOF I have read that before and I always recommend light poles after 4+ innings if you work hard and then ice. They obviously have not studied this aspect but a doctor will tell you that it helps reduce the swelling from micro tears which occurs when you strain/work miscles. Is it beneficial maybe yes and maybe no. If you rotate every 4 days it probably doesn't mean much. AMSI doesn't have all the answers probably because it is a waste of time and money to study the benefits. As I said it is no big deal one way or the other. I know lots who do and more that don't. My son did it when he was in HS and before but probably doesn't in college.

quote:

Based on the thinking of the leading medical group on baseball arm care (and others) The current consensus is that it does not help recovery time and in fact may hinder it.

No its what you think they said. They really said they don't know. They are pointing out what some people think not what some people know.
One mistake people mak is that they over ice instaed of doing short period on and then off. That will suck the heat out of your muscle which is going to deprive the muscle of the benefits of icing. You are not trying to freeze you arm. You are trying to get it back to a near normal temp and reduce swelling. Like anything you have to do it right.

his is what son was told in pro ball. I asked.

If you come off the mound and you feel sore or uncomfortable, ice may prove to be helpful to reduce any inflammation. You get iced upon request.

Other than that, as BHD suggests there are many theories to its benefits or non benefits, but still remains a preference and should be done the right way (short period).

I guess as a HS pitcher and one that has been through a good amount of arm problems, I'll chime in. I am an icer. I am also a runner/jump-roper (having slightly too much fun with the wording...). I've found that running the day of pitching and then icing the day after helps ME the best. There is usually stiffness in my arm--not pain--after pitching. I ice my elbow (usually just for the sake of doing it), my shoulder, and my shoulder blade area. If I threw a lot, I will ice the night of pitching and once again the day after (in an attempt to decrease recovery time). If I did not throw a lot (let's say a bullpen) I will only ice the day after. For me, it just gets the stiffness out (mainly in my shoulder blade area). I've had injuries related to the muscle and ligament make-up and structure in the shoulder/shoulder blade area which also require shoulder exercises that I think any kid should be doing after he throws no-matter the feeling in the kid's arm.

Study on Ice

This study suggets ice and "light shoulder excercise" as the optimal post-pitching protocol.
It is definately worth reading.

Bum, Jr. runs after a start, then ices within 2 hours. He also long-tosses the next day--as he does nearly every day--and does band work 3-4x week. 2 days before a start, he does an "ice/heat" routine, where he ices 15-20 min., then heats 15-20 min., then ices, etc. for 3 cycles. The idea here is to stretch out the muscles like a good massage.

Bum,
Just curious, what's the intensity level of the long toss the next day vs. off season?

80-90%.