Where do they learn it?

We had an incident last spring. We were a 13U team playing a 14U tournament, on a play at the plate
the runner from 3rd buried our catcher. The next batter steps in the box and our pitcher drills the kid in the ribs, I know it had to leave a mark. We asked him why he did it and he said the same thing, "it slipped". I would say they see this in the MLB, and then ESPN,FoxSports etc. replay them over and over, so the kids think this is the way they are suppose to play the game.

Who's to say, what is right and wrong, unless you were there? If the dugout was hollering and showing disrespect, then maybe the pitcher felt he was sending a message. Does it make it right, No. Has it been going on for the past 20 years without a doubt.

The difference you see today, is a general lack of respect for the game, by a large percentage of young players. Players in our program are taught: if you hit a home run, hustle around the bases and back to the dugout, where his teammates will greet you, players will not pile out of the dugout and meet him at the plate! They are told, just as the hitter feels good about himself, there is always someone on the other end, that feels bad.

I feel if a pitcher or coach gets ticked off, and decides to throw inside, there is not much that can be done about it, in most cases. The general rule of thumb, however is, NEVER THROW AT THE HEAD.

Being from Texas, I have had the opportunity to watch Nolan Ryan multiple times and Clemmons both pitch. Both believe in pitching inside, and demanding respect. Out of all the hitters that Nolan plunked thru the years, I bet he would tell you, it had nothing to do with the player getting a hit off of him, it was the way the player carried himself after that hit or homer. IMHO

Kbat,
My son gets hit 1-3 times every tournament. Usually by curveballs that don't snap. They always try to get a good one against him and it gets away. He drops the bat and sprints to first. No big deal.

I personally do not feel there is any place in amateur baseball for intentionally hitting batters, whether in the head or anywhere else.

BUT, according to the original post, all he did was throw "high and tight". Good for him!

A pitcher MUST throw inside to be successful and in this case, the situation clearly called for it.

It is a fact of life that batters will sometimes get hit. You cannot give up the inside just because one might actually hit the guy once in a while. No one is so accurate that he will never hit anyone.

Never throw at someone intentionally. Do throw inside. And accept that batters getting hit occasionally is just part of the game.

Sounds like your son already knew one lesson. He probably also learned another one: Whoever had the idea to have a "hard thrower" throw a change up with a full count and the bases loaded should have been shaken off.

No offense Kbat but I think he learned a valuable lesson. (actually a couple….)

He did not hit the kid, it just sounds like he was re-establishing his zone. 14 is about the age pitchers learn to "pitch" and pitching is about owning the plate. Sounds like he just reasserted his ownership. Sometimes while pitching you need to “move the batters feet” and it is just part of the game. My son has never hit anyone on purpose, but he has certainly moved a few off the plate.

BTW when he gets to HS (and the pitching distance moves out to 60’) he will not have the intimidation factor until his velocity comes up some so he will have to pitch a little more defensively.

Lesson 2: A good hitter will make you pay for a hanging curve or change.

Midlo,
He rarely shakes off the catcher but we discussed that situation. I doubt he will throw anything but gas on 3-2 for a while.

BOF,
It is 60 feet.

I agree with Midlo Dad's take - this is baseball and throwing inside is part of the game.

The guy I could never stand was Pedro. Whenever anyone got good wood on him you knew that guy was going to pay for it later in the game. He then let his teammates do all the fighting. Oh I forgot, Pedro did take on 80 some year old Don Zimmer one time

quote:

I doubt he will throw anything but gas on 3-2 for a while.

There are no universal rules in baseball imho. The situation may dictate a 3-2 changeup. My older son once was pulling a kid and hitting them out of sight down the left field line but the ball kept landing foul. After about 6 hard hit foul balls, the opposing coach walked out and conferred with his pitcher. The next pitch was basically lobbed as my son was screwed into the ground while twisting out in front of it. At that age (12-13) even a mediocre changeup can be devastating. To this day, I dont' believe that kid actually had a chngeup in his arsenal. The coach just convinced him to lob a strike in there and it worked

Interesting topic DM!

Like most pitches, it's not the type of pitch but where that pitch is located. If the change-up was down in the zone it probably wouldn't have been hit out. If a batter is on the FB and expecting a FB the change is a good pitch in that situation. IMO.

Nothing wrong with throwing inside, just part of the game. If one gets a little to inside and hits a kid, also part of the game.

IF he intentionally hits a batter that is wrong in my opinion. However intentionally hitting batters is something some pitchers do in certain situations. My son pitched up into college and to my knowledge he never hit a batter intentionally. If your son decides to be one of the pitchers that needs to hit batters he doesn't need to do it to the batter following a HR simply because he made a "mistake" pitch. I see that as frustration not retaliation. Hitting home runs is great execution and not a cheap shot. If he eliminates the "mistake" pitches from his repertoire maybe frustration won't raise its ugly head and the urge to hit someone or something will diminish.
Fungo

I would say it is not a bad thing. You have to give the other team something to think about in a situation like that.

My son just played 14u last spring/summer. Had the same problem. He is a hard thrower also and really did not have a chance to throw the change up a lot because the speed would be right in their wheelhouse. He threw an 80 mph FB, 68 mph change. Unless he kept the change down, it would usually be hit pretty hard. 3-2 count was probably not the best for a change for a hard thrower at that age.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
IF he intentionally hits a batter that is wrong in my opinion. However intentionally hitting batters is something some pitchers do in certain situations. My son pitched up into college and to my knowledge he never hit a batter intentionally. If your son decides to be one of the pitchers that needs to hit batters he doesn't need to do it to the batter following a HR simply because he made a "mistake" pitch. I see that as frustration not retaliation. Hitting home runs is great execution and not a cheap shot. If he eliminates the "mistake" pitches from his repertoire maybe frustration won't raise its ugly head and the urge to hit someone or something will diminish.
Fungo

agreed.....somewhere along the line its important for you dads and coaches to remind your player that at certain levels, we umpires take a dim view of a pitcher deliberately throwing at another players....and that our (umpires) opinion is all that counts when we eject for that.....

Now , throwing inside is part of the game, and batters will get hit.....also part of the game.....High and tight...is part of the game.....

But drilling the next batter after a homerun (at higher levels) will get you run....I have to maintain control and dumping a pitcher for the rest of this game (and probably the next) will nip it in the bud...

if left unchecked, a few hit batters later, a bench clearing later....we have ejections, and the blame goes not to the person who started it but on the umpires for "not controlling the game"......

At the youth levels, the pitcher is usually one of the better athletes, an ejection from a tourney hurts the team in the long run...

No one has brought up that at 14U, most pitchers really don't have the command to go high and tight enough to intimidate the opposition. Kids always seem to think a pitcher is throwing at them. Most young pitchers only have a good guess as to where their pitches are going.
Your kid may have good control, but I believe him in that it just slipped.
On the other side of things, you said he didn't hit the batter, just moved his feet. Thats good for the pitcher, and if quieted the opposition, good for him.

piaa, I think at any level umps take a dim view of this. That is why there are warnings and ejections at the MLB level as well. Still, throwing at guys has been part of the game since it started.

All that being said, I have been the pitching coach for my sons team for four years (he will be playing 15u this summer) and I have never called for a batter to be thrown at. Our head coach gave us a sign for it in the event, but I was never comfortable with calling it if he ever wanted to. In fact, if he asked me to call it, I would probably tell him no. However, throwing high inside is not a bad thing. As long as you're not trying to hit him. Like others have said, the plate belongs to the pitcher.

Here is what I will say about the above situation. If the kid did throw high and inside on purpose - good for him. It shows a sense of competition and a take charge attitude. I like it. If he were to stand up on the mound after that and not care or feel so bad about himself that he was ineffective, that would be far worse.

With all due respect Coachric, some kids at that age do have the control to put pitches where they want them. Of course not every pitch goes exactly where they want (even in the majors), but I have seen those that can throw the ball where you call it more often than not.

I have never believed that a pitcher would throw at a batter intentionally. That is a myth perpetuated by BB pudits and sports annoncers. It slipped as he said.
I have never had a pitcher tell me he hit a batter or been told to hit one. Most pitchers are unhappy with hitting a batter.

I suppose it is more fun to believe the myth.

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I have never believed that a pitcher would throw at a batter intentionally. That is a myth perpetuated by BB pudits and sports annoncers.

NO MYTH ---- Read it!! That should give you an idea of "Where do they learn it"

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I was really mad, I wrote down the kid's number and told my son "next time when you pitch, give a fastball right at his head.

Just want to make it clear. He didn't hit the kid. Scared him to death and I think he needed to clean his shorts. But no HBP.

I asked him again last night about it. He said he wasn't trying to hit the kid. Just over threw the ball because he was mad about a bunch of calls by the umps. Said that he didn't like the grand slam but it didn't bother him too bad, he got the change up and it didn't break down and away, over threw it.

He didn't mean to come that far inside and it didn't bother him that the kid was knocked down. He pitches 80% of the time inside. And I quote,"I wasn't trying to hit him. I was mad at the calls. If I have to throw it down the middle to get a strike, I was trying to throw it my hardest."

I guess I will see in the next couple of tournaments what he learned from this day. All in all I think it was a great outing for learning how to pitch. I truly think he learned more from being bombed than he ever learned from being successful.

Kbat if you did that in the leqagues my son played you and your son would be escorted out of the ball park. Parents are not allowed any contact with players until the coach is finished with them after the game.
I have yalked with 100s of pitchers and ask them quite often if any coach ever asked them to hit a batter. Not one ever said he had been told to do that. Throwing inside is part of the game and occassionally a CB hits a batter or a pitch just gets away from the pitcher. A pitcher would be foolish to give up a base just to get even. Throwing at a kids head is as low as you can get and may have criminal cosequenses if you injur the player and it can be proven.

No coach I know would do something that dumb and I am sure Fungo's intent was a back hand slap in the head.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
No coach I know would do something that dumb and I am sure Fungo's intent was a back hand slap in the head.

That's why I say "no harm no foul", Talk the talk, walk the walk. If there's intentionally hitting by the other team, there will be retaliation.

Wow, this thread is giving me scary flashbacks.

How do you know it's intentional?

A couple of weeks ago 2B was pitching in a fall HS game against a team with a lot of players that we know from travel ball. He's not a pitcher, but he sometimes pitches. He throws pretty hard for someone folks are used to seeing at 2B. Anyway, he was wild that night. First batter of the second inning comes up. 2B beans him right in the skull with the first pitch. His helmet flew off and he dropped to the ground, out cold. It shook everyone up, not least of all 2B. After what seemed like a long time but probably wasn't, the kid got up, he was OK but out of the game.

2B comes to bat third the next inning. I was afraid they would throw at him. But they didn't. Classy coach, classy players. They knew he didn't do it on purpose. He actually walked twice that night, and got robbed by great D twice. Anyway somehow he regained his composure, changed his arm slot (he later told me) and had great control the rest of the way. He pitched another inning with 2 Ks and a ground out. We lost the game, but it was probably the most well-played game of the fall HS season.

So, to make a short story long, after seeing my own player knock someone out by accident, I can't fathom a parent or coach telling a player to throw at another kid's head on purpose. Seeing someone else's child or your own knocked out over home plate is very scary. Wondering if there was going to be retribution was scary, too.

The best way to shut up an opposing dugout is to throw strikes and play defense.

2B I'll second that. No decent coach wants to hit batters. I know many and that is the last thing they want to see.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
2B I'll second that. No decent coach wants to hit batters. I know many and that is the last thing they want to see.

I guess those MLB coaches or players are not "Decent" after all. How many bench clear brawl started with a HBP and retaliation? I guess it's in the hundreds. Youth games are much cleaner than MLB. But there are some bum kids trying to show how man enough to hit other player intentionally after giving up hits or homers. To them, they will pay the price sooner or later.

KB I will suggest that I watch more BB than 99.999% of the people on this board. I live near 3 D1 colleges, 2 Canadaian colleges, 2 senior leagues, a half a dozen elite leagues and several AA teams not to mention being involved with a Jays MiLB team for about 12 years. BB games every day of the summer and fall. I specifically watch and talk to pitchers. In all those experiences I have never hear a coach/ player ever talk about hitting a player/ or retaliating by caising another player harm. Actually I hear retaliated by winning this BB game. Pitching insiide is to open up the out part of the plate. The batters I watch would not be intimidated by getting hit. They might get mad for a few seconds but even that is rare.
I guess your interpretation is why you don't know any better.

There isn't a MLB hitter that doesn't believe he was hit intentionally. I guess hitting him is 3 throws less than a base on balls.
How old is your son ? how can you tell him to hit another player in the head let alone during a game ?

Dman, I think one lesson for your son is that pitching (and hitting, and fielding) is all about composure. Of course the other team is going to be fired up after a grand slam. I can't think of a team at any level that wouldn't be.

Sure, knocking the kid back afterward quieted the dugout. But if he had kept his cool and thrown the heater for strikes and gotten an out, that would have had the same effect and IMO would have been much more impressive. To me, at 14U, or any level, it's about playing the game the way it should be played, not who hits whom and who retaliates. I have no problem with a well-timed inside fastball below the neck, but I'd rather have an out than a man on base with a bruise any day.

Son's friend playing DII now minors was hit a couple times intentionally.

First time the batter before him hit a homer a country mile and hot dogged it around the bases. Son's friend knew it was coming and sure enough got one in the ribs the next pitch. Trotted to first base. Hot dogger apologized to him but the damage was done.

Same thing happened in AA ball this past season. Took one in the ribs after previous batter took too long admiring one at home plate.

Do you think the one Coco Crisp took wasn't intentional?? Even he knew it was coming.

It happens and it's part of baseball. Just don't go head-hunting.

To say it's a MYTH is scary. Are we watching the same games??

Frank some of us know better.
Ask any coach on here if he ever asked a pitcher to hit a batter. It is stupid to think a pitcher who gave up a HR wants to start off with a free base runner..

Bobblehead,
Didn't Ozzie Guillen send in a September call up to hit a guy a couple of years ago? The kid missed the guy and Ozzie chewed him up for a couple of innings, sent him to the showers, and sent him back down. Didn't the Flyin' Hawaiin get almost pegged last year in the playoffs in retaliation? His pointing at the head and saying no way and pointing at his ribs and saying OK says it all.

It def happens in the bigs. Mark Grace talks about it on TV all of the time. He should know. But it has no place in amature sports.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Frank some of us know better.
Ask any coach on here if he ever asked a pitcher to hit a batter. It is stupid to think a pitcher who gave up a HR wants to start off with a free base runner..

Totally disagree with you BHD. I agree that you don't see it happen all that often at the amateur levels.

Have you ever seen Pedro Martinez pitch? He is the king of the retribution pitch. I wouldn't be surprised if he has started more fights than any other pitcher. Why exactly do you think hitters charge the mound? A bad hair day?

I have seen it a few times over the years. But it is extremely rare. I have had a couple of pitchers ask me if they could hit a batter. I have always sternly said no. Kids are competitive and sometimes they lose their cool. The coach can not. He has to have control and remain in control at all times. In the cases I have seen it happen the opposing coach was a clown and so his players acted like clowns.

I am not a big believer in coming in high and tight at the lower levels of baseball. Kids at these ages do not have command of older more experienced pitchers. And the batters do not as well. I do believe in pitching inside at all levels. At the hs level I believe that pitchers must pitch. And that means they must be fearless and that means no concern with hitting a batter when pitching. And I also believe that a true hitter must be fearless with no concern of getting hit by a pitch.

Show me a pitcher that is afraid he is going to hit someone at the HS level or above and I will show you someone that needs to stop pitching. And show me a hitter at the hs level or above that is afraid of being hit and I will show you a guy that needs to quit trying to be a hitter.

While my son was pitching in a 13U Championship game an opposing batter was basically standing on the plate. Of course he threw inside to back him off the plate. The pitch hit him but it was over the inside corner of the plate. So there was no "intentional" HBP, only a pitcher doing his job. After the 1/2 inning was over my son came up to bat leadoff. Our coach told him before he ever went out to watch for it because he would probably be throwing at him. The first pitch went behind him, the second was inside barely missing him, the third bounced at his feet and finally with the fourth pitch he hit him in the arm.

My son also relayed a story told to him by a former 1st round draft pick about being sent in from the bullpen just to intentionally hit a batter.

I agree it does not happen often but it does occur even at the younger levels.

Pitching inside is fine. That is different than the intentional head hunter stuff which is not cool .

I wouldnt expect my son to purposely go after someone but I do tell him if he does hit someone that he should show no emotion either way. I am not talking about a ball in the noggin here just a run of the mill hit to the hands or leg etc.

Since it was an accident, let the other team play the rest of the game wondering if it was an accident.

Try and make the best out of it strategically.

He also knows he would get a lecture from me if out of frustration with giving up a HR, he hits the next batter. To me, that would be selfish, putting his team in jepordy of having another run score just because things didnt go his way with the first batter. The idea is to get your team back in dugout as soon as you can, with as few pitches thrown as it takes.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Bobblehead,
Didn't Ozzie Guillen send in a September call up to hit a guy a couple of years ago? The kid missed the guy and Ozzie chewed him up for a couple of innings, sent him to the showers, and sent him back down. Didn't the Flyin' Hawaiin get almost pegged last year in the playoffs in retaliation? His pointing at the head and saying no way and pointing at his ribs and saying OK says it all.

It def happens in the bigs. Mark Grace talks about it on TV all of the time. He should know. But it has no place in amature sports.

Good post D-man,It happens all the time at all levels. We played a very highy thought of program's team this past summer, coached by an ex D1 pitcher, he has plenty of skins on the wall. Long story short. Our #3 hitter, hits a 3 run shot in the first inning, next hitter, hit on the first pitch, next time #3 comes around, first pitch hit him.
Hmmmmmmmmm.

I love the Dads and coaches who talk about command and control in a 14U. Thank You Coach May, as we agree that command is not present even with the best pitchers at that age. Yes, a kid who has been throwing down the middle since he was 8 can hit the strike zone. Ask that kid to veer off in another direction from his training and he will tighten up and miss mightily. In 33 years of coaching I haven't seen too many who could do it below the age of 17. The kid missed and thats all there is too it.
I see lots of comparisons with the pro game, there is no comparison.

I guess this is one myth that will live on .
I have asked the question to several MLB pitchers and not one says he intentionally hit a batter but said they smile and say they wouldn't admit it publically.
Coachmay's point about batters not being fealess negates what you feel the purpose of hitting a batter is. Any ball player knows they will get hit several times during their career. They are taught how to take a hit. Some even step into the ball. I have seen a batter get hit 3 times in one game. I watched Paul Spaoljeric a former Blue Jay pitcher chase a hitter who hit a HR off him, around the bases screaming at him all the way. He didn't hit one batter in that game. Do you think he was mad ? I thought it was a great moment in BB.
I am sure that I won't convince anyone that it is a myth. I guees people that allow their kid to play BB are willing to let their sons go out and get intentionally hit. I am sure that some scrawny pitcher will hit a batter that could rip his head off if he charged the mound and risk getting tossed. I am also sure that coaches want to risk a ball game and possibly their job on retaliation.

quote:

I am sure that I won't convince anyone that it is a myth.

On this point we agree.