Where Has all the Hunger Gone?

Interesting post.  I was just at a showcase yesterday where I saw some talented kids basically act as if they were bored.  I don't know if they think they will always get a 2nd chance or what but it was extremely annoying. 

Pete Carril, the basketball coach, had a rule of thumb: "Don't ever recruit a player whose parents have a 3-car garage."

I was thinking about this topic the other day.  A local kid who played with my son quit his JC college team.  This is a kid with a good amount of talent and several tools but no work ethic.  This kid had several JC's looking for him and went with the one that promised him a starting spot knowing full well they couldn't guarantee it.  He didn't want to work hard to earn a spot.  

 

I contrast this to my son and others like him who have the desire and work ethic but fall short in the tools area.  Even though those kind of people fall short of their baseball dreams they will be much better productive members of our communities.

Augie Garrido, in speaking recently at CSF Titans Alumni dinner said this:

" The biggest problem with our sport of college baseball is the air of entitlement."

 

 

 

 

I would distinguish, generalized work-ethic, from hunger/passion for baseball in particular.  I know many really good kids from this area, who have really good work habits in general.  They are good students.  Have dreams and ambition for themselves. Will go to good schools.  They also have some baseball skills.  It's just that they are not all that invested in baseball as such.  I'm thinking it has to do with having so many options that they don't feel all that much urgency about baseball per se.  If it works out, great.  If it doesn't, they just move on to something else. Wondering if that dampens down the overall urgency among players, taken in aggregate. 

I grew up in a pretty poor town overall in Arkansas but we where lucky and my dad had a good job.  My dad thought I was becoming complacent because I was better at sports than the kids in my school so I didn't push myself To my limits.  our town was also very segregated back then and I mostly only played with kids from my income level and race.  When I was 12 my dad drove me through our neighborhood around 1 in June and you didn't see many kids playing, he took me to the poor side of town and there where kids playing mostly basketball everywhere.  He took me to the park and had me get out and meet a man he new from that area.  My dad left me to play with his kids.  I was amazed at how good they where and rode my bike everyday after school over that area to play.  We mostly played basketball, some football but I got my new friends into baseball As well. My 7th grade year I averaged 30 points per game after being challenged on a daily basis. I also got in constant trouble from the coach for "showboating" when I threw passes that hit my teammates in the head.  Also when we made it to high school the two middle schools that where segregated combined into one integrated high school.  That year I had 4 friends become the first black baseball players in our school history, as Seniors we won district and made the state finals.  We also won district that year in football and basketball.  My point is I was a product of my environment it really wasn't my fault and when I was challenged at a higher level I raised my level of play.  When my son was Young he always played up in age so he was challenged (never above his head just so he was challenged)it kept him hungry to get better.  Sometimes the parent has to help the kids be challenged in the US.  In the DR every kid is playing to get out, they have natural hunger.

I would fear for the safety of my kids by dropping them off in the "poor" section of our area.  In fact the outdoor basketball courts have been known to be a harbinger of drugs, droopy drawers and gang music.   I'm glad you made it out of it unscarred. 

Definitely see this all the time here in Orange County. Kids just roll out of bed expecting to get the new $400 Easton every year + travel ball, showcases & private instruction are par for the course - and that doesn't include the $1,000 the high school program expects from each family. No sacrifice & no work ethic, its all just gift wrapped for them and is considered to be the cost of doing business by most of these parents.

 

When there are 20 kids on the roster and 16 of them get all of the above without question, there is an unrealistic expectation placed on these other kids to "keep up with the Joneses" as if you don't have the 2015 Mako you somehow won't be able to compete anymore. I'm sure we all spend a lot of time watching games & showcases going "if we could just put THAT kids heart into THAT kids body, we'd have ourselves a real ballplayer." 

All of the athletes playing in college from my son's HS team were the ones who were at the field long after practice ended, or on weekends, or on their own somewhere else. No exceptions. 

in fairness to our kids it is pretty hard to compair them to boys from the DR and some of the other countries. only the elite from those coutries get to come here even at a young age. if you only exported the top 10% or so of players from the US to somewhere you may look at the info a bit different. plus the kids from the island are playing for a life outside of a shack...the down side to failure is much much worse for them then to most young American kids.

 

We have plenty of kids that are hard workers, I believe our system writes them off much quicker if they are don't have the stats and times behind them...lets face if even on this form winning in travel ball is all but dismissed as a by product of being a talented player in a good organization...nobody really cares. But then these same kids who haven't learned the difference between a team and individual effort are supposed to go off to college and change over night to being "team" guys.

I believe that hunger can exist everywhere.  I often wonder how kid at poverty stricken kid will handle a large bonus.   I often wonder how the stinking rich kid will handle minor league baseball.  Sure the kids in DR are hungry and they might work very hard.  But the DR is a baseball country full of exceptional athletes.  If every good athlete in the USA played baseball it would be like the DR. You don't see many professional athletes in other sports from the DR.

 

I do think growing up among the extremely wealthy is not conducive to being a professional athlete.  But some have overcome that obstacle. Just like many poor people overcome their obstacles. 

Right.  Question is how do you instill that level of drive and determination in a relatively or highly privilege kid with talent?  Or is it the kind of thing that you can even instill.   Maybe  it's just the sort of thing you are born with -- though that smacks of "fixed mind-set"  thinking, which is forbidden these days. But it does occur to me that as baseball has become more of the province of those with many options, it's the rare kid who is going to give his all in the way you're talking about it. 

Uh oh! 

 

I think the observation isn't really that new.  Nearly every generation looks at the next and wonders similar things.  Heck, 10 years ago I was saying some of this same stuff living in the heart of Silicon Valley myself.

 

It all works out one way or another - and even if true, just provides opportunity for others.

Having just come into this crazy baseball world arena I have an opinion, but it is an uneducated opinion so sorry if I ruffle feathers.

 

I propose the idea that it isn't just the kids that have no hunger, it's the baseball coaches too!  On the other thread they are talking about baseball hotbed of talents and the consensus is good weather + warm climate + disposable income =hotbed of talent....it's the disposable income part that got me thinking.

 

I have heard multiple times from multiple coaches that the fundamentals are why kids get picked for teams, and the older you get the more exact your fundamentals need to be.  You have to approach the ball in a particular way, you should be holding your glove in this way, you should swing in this way, you should never pitch in that way....etc....I have read it on here too that when a coach sees a shortstop doing some kind of flared thing with their glove they don't want that kid, they want the kid who fielded the ball technically perfect.

 

So how do these hungry disadvantaged kids learn to do it perfect?  As stated by the OP, baseball has moved to an "middle class/upper middle class/rich kid"sport...and why is that?  Is it because those are the kids that can afford the paid coach teams that are showing how to do it perfect, the extra lesson that drills into a kid the exact steps that a HS coach or college scout wants to see...etc. 

 

You can have a short stop spend 6 hours on the field fielding ball after ball but if he isn't doing it precisely correct will it matter, even if the end result is the same accuracy to first, just not done in the same way?  Where are the stories of the "GREAT" baseball coaches going to a rural park and finding a diamond in the rough that he coaches to greatness?  I know those stories were around 20+ years ago...how about now?  Why would that underprivileged "hungry kid" try for baseball when he can't get a hold of the key to unlock the mystery technically perfect door?

 

EDIT: Just to explain, I'm not saying it is the coach's responsibility to search out talent, but if the average coach won't let a kid on the team without the technically perfect fielding skills, or X type of swing, how can a "hungry" kid get the skills that the coaches and scouts prize so dearly?

CaCo, IMO, most coaches, below the college level, really have not need to seek out talent.  I would even dare to say that a vast majority of them can only recognize talent and use that talent.  I doubt very many of them could recognize a diamond in the rough yet alone develope it.

 

I do see the entitlement attitude in and around my area.  I also see some young players that are truly hungry for the game, the question is, will they have it through HS and beyond?  The history around here for the 10 years I have lived in this area points to the fact that it will not.

 

Coaching at the youth level I tend to gravitate toward the diamond in the rough type and the ones that aren't carrying $1,000 worth of bats in their bag.  It much more fun to "make" a player and develop talent than it is to just coach a kid that has it, with the ultimate goal of showing a kid their potential and instilling that hunger.

It was a long time ago.

My point is, would that coach even allow a diamond in the rough onto their team since he will be viewed as holding his glove wrong, or not swinging correctly, or *gasp* picking up a slow roller with his hand rather than glove?  Are these kids, who could never afford "proper" training, just passed over for that team spot?

BOF  your observation is exactly like my own. Sluggerdad I don't know about Silicone Valley, as I am just a blue collar construction worker, but my boy has seen me get up and drag my behind to work when I was either dead tired or sick as a dog. and has been to work with me. He has seen that side of life. And maybe it is just coincidental that he is one of the hungriest, hardest workers that I have seen.That attitude just doesn't appear over night. It can be seen when they are younger.It is keeping that hunger, desire to play and work ethic into HS and beyond. I have seen many a talented youngster just decide it was too much work and that there were other things to do.

Oldmanmoses, I think you nailed it. I don't believe anyone is born with any type of ethic, but that it is "developed" over time, mainly directly from the parents. This may hurt and I know there are exceptions, but I would venture to guess that one could spend a little time with the parents and predict pretty accurately what type of work ethic it ethic in general a player has. Anyone who has coached at any level would probably concur. I grew up in a home where my dad farmed. Mom had a full time job and raised 4 kids while cooking dinner every night and getting her bachelor degree followed by a masters degree. Looking back, I have NO idea how my mom did all of that. At the same time, my parents never missed a single sporting event I had that I can remember. I honestly do not know how they accomplished it. Anyway, I VIVIDLY remember the conversation around the age of 13 or so that I told my dad I wanted a different career. Farming was HARD!!  You left home at dark and arrived home after dark. But, that instilled the work ethic I have and got me where I am today. My kid was much more fortunate, but I strived to instill that same work ethic in him. It is harder when you have the means, but I decided to explain to my kids that I was financially stable, they were flat broke. I know I gave my kids too much even trying not to. I hope my son has developed a work ethic that will carry him through life. These are the things he and I talk about the most now. I remind him often that scholarship simply got his toe in the door. It's up to him to shove it open!  Hard work takes zero talent.

Good post!

What do coaches have to do with being hungry?  

 

I think that the entitlement factor and having to have the best of everything takes lots of the drive away to succeed in anything, not just sports.

 

You want to know where the hunger is?  Mexico, DR, Cuba, just about every Latin country as well as PR.   The poverty is so bad s well as opportunities but the talent is there and they IMO will do anything to take pro jobs away from anyone.

 

 

I understand what he means by diamond in the rough. You can spot them a mile away, they are and will be better athletes than any one of those kids with the fancy unis and the fancy equipment.

 

You are just on the tip of the iceberg, if your son continues to play through HS you probably will see many of them pass through your area or in your travels, you will know the ones who just have that ability that you know is special.

 

You do know who Yasiel Puig is, right? This guys fielding skills are meh, but oh boy can he hit!  

 

My point is a good coach who sees someone with huge upside WILL do anything to get that kid on the field. To him, its not about the money he gets from each player to "coach".

Good post PG.

I know of some guys who played bb that came from parents who make a lot of money, I never really saw the drive in them like you do from those with less.  I mean when you are 23 and you already drive your own new Lexus where do you go from there?  

But I have also known or heard about lots of players whose parents have lots of money but have been taught to work hard for what they want and it seems to have worked, many are professional athletes not just bb players.

 

I think that what happened to Oscar Tavares is a very sad story of what can happen to  guys who come from nothing.

 

Its not all good.

 

I'm reading about many perceptions and not a lot of supporting data. So if we're just throwing out homespun opinions based on perceptions and one-offs, let me add to the flotsam and jetsam:

-Our son comes from an upper middle class background, and works his ass off.

-My son's Summer and Fall teammates come from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds, and to a man work their collective and individual asses off.

-An acquaintance of mine who contributes to this board does very, very well (VERY), and his son works his ass off.

 

The hunger to succeed knows no socioeconomic status.

What is your definition of working your a $$ off?

You said it yourself. Our kids have options. Dominican kids don't have any options. It's either baseball for a chance to live like a human being or not. I'll take my chances here any day of the week.

Great question. Let's take the offseason as an example, using a plan based on research and recommendations:

1) Lifting 4x/week based on D1 school lifting program and NYY's off season lifting program, supplemented by research on STACK.

2) Enhanced Throwers 10 program every other day.

3) Hitting every day: either in the garage or an indoor facility.

4) Fielding drills, core work, speed drills, medicine ball work, etc. every other day.

5) Just started throwing after a 10 week arm rest. That, too, is programmed out.

6) 6-7 servings a protein each day (yeah: we include 2 shakes and 2 bars in his lunchbox so that he can consume in-between classes).

 

And he hates missing any of the days. 

 

Atop this: homework, ACT prep, social life. What has dropped off the radar: video gaming, TV watching.

 

What's your definition of working your ass off?

Just for the record, I personally wasn't trying to say that NO kids around here work their tails off or have the insatiable desire to succeed at baseball that drives them to go above and beyond.  There certainly are those kids --  Some of them are highly privileged; some of them not so.  I wouldn't want to endorse any blanket statement on this score. 

 

Plus also, i think that in general  these kids in these parts have tremendous work ethics -- the AP courses, the extra-curricular activities, the relentless rat-race to succeed and get in the right college and all that.   They are definitely driven hard -- sometimes it comes from within, sometimes it's peer pressure, sometimes its parental pressure.  Lots of sources of pressure to strive and achieve.

 

My only point was that as to baseball,  I've both observed and coached lots of talented kids, with lots of advantages,  who simply lack a kind of elemental hunger.

 

I actually wasn't offering that as a criticism of those kids.   They have so much going on in their lives, so many options, it doesn't necessarily make sense for them to stake much on baseball often.    

 

But I do think you're not going to succeed and get to the next level based on that.  You've got to have the hunger.  I was just wondering where the elemental hunger comes from, when it does come.  Is it something you can instill?  Is it built into one's fundamental psychological make up?  What role does having/or not having other options play in shaping the hunger? Can coaches stoke it and encourage it and cultivate it or can they only extinguish it  (I sure hope the former and not the later.

 

I started thinking about this in response to the baseball hot-beds thread.  I suspect that  in the hotbeds somehow proportionately more players with not just talent but also with absolute hunger somehow get produced.  And I wondered if there was regional variation on that score -- maybe connected to economic variation -- but also maybe not, since, by and large, in all regions of the US  baseball is becoming or has become the province of the well to do or very well to do.  That's why I brought in the DR, though, clearly economic desperation can play a role in shaping and instilling hunger.  I think it does in this country too in basketball and football.  Not so clear with baseball. 

Until there is data, you have to strip away the blanket of privilege and look at the individual personality profiles to try to understand drive. I think you would have a much greater understanding of the genesis of internal drive to succeed in baseball if you were able to apply Myers-Briggs to a representative sample. 

 

Now if you really wanted to see if there was correlation between socioeconomic status and the level of success derived from participating in the game, one could probably take the zip codes of PG's Top 500 from the past few years and conduct some clustering work. And I wouldn't be surprised if this data is readily available at PG.

 

But until there is definitive work to really understand, we've got opinions, and just like a******s, we each have one.

So it all comes down to how much time you put in the gym?

You're kidding, right? When its 10 degrees out, what do you suggest, Genius?

Excuse me I asked a question you didnt have to get nasty.
The reason being ...you are aware that many players who dont work their butt off in the gym do get many bb opportunities.  And plenty that work their butts off  dont get those opportunities.
So what is it exactly that it comes down to when one player gets an oppotunity over another?

Look up "passive aggressive."

 

"So what is it exactly that it comes down to when one player gets an oppotunity over another?"

 

That's the point: you don't know unless you have data. So if you want to spout off a thought based on little or no data (and strictly off personal observation), join Fox News.

Talent?

 

I am no longer sure of that answer.

 

Projection?

 

Probably a combo of those two. Many players have bled working to get an opportunity or stay in the game. Surgeries, working their way back and busting it out trying to stay relevant to a team.

 

It is brutal. And it is not all about the DR kids having no options. My son has always played as though he has no options. Many times that is not enough.

 

The window of opportunity is surprisingly brief. A temporary injury can be all that it takes to have the dream ripped away.

 

Those with a hunger will continue to press on, but hunger is not what teams look for. It is talent and projection. A sour tale for a 24 year old who is not ready to hang up cleats, or leave the game behind.

joemktg :  you spelled CNN wrong ("FOX")

Floridafan,
He doesnt understand what you and I do.
Until you live it...one never will.

What data are you refering to?
BDS...funny. 

Jeez, you really have to read and understand what you're reading: unless hidden in an academic journal, there is no data that points to an answer.

 

Reading is fundamental. And spelling. And punctuation. Your keyboard must be in constant pain.

You said one wouldnt know without data. What data are you refering to?