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30 replies

Which Change-Up?

D Dh3310+ posts
Mm, So I havn't been here in a while, but I know this is always a good place to come back

-For those who remember me, prolly remember I had a messed up growth plate in my shoulder and so on.
Well, I managed to pitch a whopping 73 innings last year [I'm a sophmore in HS]
Might not be much, but for a spot starter/closer, it was quite a bit.

So anyway, I resumed throwing about 3 weeks ago, and felt really good, and I knew my velocity was up.
[I went from throwing low-mid 70's to low 80's in a few months]

Anyway, I did a bullpen for the first time this offseason, and found myself [with new mechanics] throwing the ball the best Ive ever thrown, harder, more accurate etc.

And I was throwing a 3 fingered change [index, middle, an ring all on the top of the ball seperated]
An it was fairly accurate, but dead strait, the velocity difference was, according to my catcher/coach, pretty good.

With a big season in my life approaching, should I try and throw a circle change [that I can get some movement on, risking accuracy and consistancy] or just keep the strait change and work on a little cutter or 2 seamer?

Btw, all I have is a 4 Seamer and a Strait Change, I dumped my curve at the end of last season, I realized it isn't as important as a change.

-Thanks, an sorry for the rambling lol
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TSP4TSP410+ posts
Dh33,

You have just described word for word what happened to me 2 years ago. I was 13 and was diagnosed with Little League Shoulder. I threw in the low 70's and now throw the low 80's due to a plyometrics workout that I joined for 4 days a week. I throw a three finger change up. I found that it is easier to grip the ball that way than with a circle change grip. I would always experiment with different pitches during the off season. You never know what might work for you. Once you find one particular grip that you like, stick with it. As for dropping the curve ball, don't do it. Pick it back up again. If thrown correctly, a curve ball can be a killer pitch. Keep in mind that the best pitchers are the ones that have MASTERED 3 different pitches. Good luck to you.
T Texan1,000+ posts
The most important factor in the c/u is deception. Your mechanics need to be exactly like your fastball mechanics - especially the same arm speed.

The speed difference, given the above, is what really makes the c/u work. Movement is a secondary consideration.

If you can develop the same control with the circle and get more movement, fine. If not, stay with the three finger.
D Dh3310+ posts
Coach Rusty -the Catcher only runs our practices seldomly since he does lessons and works a job at a batting cage.
So for the most part, I'll see him once a week, or once every 2 weeks... and with HS tryouts being like... 3 weeks away, I figured it's best to get an answer as quickly as possible

Thanks for those who answered.
BumBum1,000+ posts
In many ways, a good curve acts like a change. At least at the HS level, the change in speeds derived from the curve gets most unrefined batters out. If you drop the curve completely--or don't find an effective slider which may be even more effective in that it appears more like a fastball--I think this will eventually catch up to you. For every guy that doesn't throw a good bender there are 10 more guys at the college level that do, and that can be a serious competitive disadvantage.

For my own son, the change came last. It seemed harder for him to master. But boy, does he have one now! It sinks and fades and I swear sometimes even dances.

Keep working at it!
D Dh3310+ posts
Hah thanks

I've got two practices tommarow, so I'll be working off the mound during the first one, and I'll talk to Duke Dickerson about it.

I've had a hard time finding a good curve grip, I was runnin a spike curve[kuckle curve ish] but It was too harsh on my elbow...

I have a ton of people saying, throw it this way, throw it this way, but I can't get em to break any other way than a spike, and I don't really want to potentially deal w/ elbow issues.

I'll play around with it tommarow

Thanks!
BumBum1,000+ posts
Dh33,

If you're still having elbow issues by all means talk to pitching coach first. There is a simple slider you can learn that is very easy on the arm and is thrown with a simple fastball grip with no twisting involved.. wish I could describe it to you but I can't.. son's pitching coach showed him.

I'm not a fan of the knuckle-curve. IMHO it is a silly little-league pitch that has no use at the higher levels, but I could be wrong as I'm sure there are always a few guys that are effective with it.

When throwing your change, hold it deep in your hand and concentrate on releasing the ball as late as possible.

Good luck on your season.
Last edited by Bum
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
There is a simple slider you can learn that is very easy on the arm and is thrown with a simple fastball grip with no twisting involved.

...

When throwing your change, hold it deep in your hand and concentrate on releasing the ball as late as possible.

Good luck on your season.


If the wrist doesn't supinate, it isn't a slider.

Stay away from the slider.

I don't recommend shoving the ball deep in the hand. It isn't necessary. And it can take too much off the speed. The three finger or circle change configuration with a nice relaxed grip will do the job and accomplish the needed speed change without throwing a palm ball.
D Dh3310+ posts
When I throw my change [3 finger] Its not as though I shove it into the depths of my hand,
I'd say it's about the middle of a palm and where you'd have it for a fastball.
And I use finger pressure on the top of the ball to dull the speed.

I've tried pushing it back to my palm, but all it normally does it go high or skip.
D Dh3310+ posts
Today I had a double practice [with 2 different teams, same organization]
And I threw 60 pitches on the side, mixed in my knuckle curve a few times, and had really good results..
So I'm going to work with that

but at the beginning of the 2nd practice, I grabbed a ball in a 2 seam grip, across the seams, and the ball had like a 2 foot tail to the left [I throw righty]

It didn't go down at all, it just had a really hard tail, and the kid I was warmin up with was astounded.

I'll find out tommarrow if it was a fluke, could've been from fatique [I've heard Sinker ballers have more break when they are fatiqued, don't know if it's the same case]
If I can consistantly throw this cutter ish pitch for strikes with the break I had today
Man, I don't know where Ill go lol


This can be locked, it's getting off topic, mostly my fault.
Thanks for your help!
BumBum1,000+ posts
That tailing movement is good so long as you can throw it for strikes. My LHP son has great tailing movement. His pitching coach (a DI college pitching coach) said that the larger the difference in length between the index and middle fingers, the greater the tail, although finger pressure has some affect.

The cut relies on finger pressure to move the ball in the direction opposite of the tailing fastball.

I disagree with Texan, holding the ball deeper in the hand creates more resistance. With a change up, you don't want to change arm speeds so added resistance is vital. But I agree, if you hold it too deep you will have control issues.
Last edited by Bum
T Texan1,000+ posts
There is another thing that putting the ball back in the palm does. It shortens the lever arm (e.g., lever resulting from the wrist action). I would recommend that if someone were to throw the palmball that they gun some of the pitches to make sure they aren't losing too much velocity.

The regular three finger and circle change (without the ball shoved back into the palm), take off 10-12 mph off Texan Son's fb. Right about where he wants it. Others may get different results.
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dh33:
but at the beginning of the 2nd practice, I grabbed a ball in a 2 seam grip, across the seams, and the ball had like a 2 foot tail to the left [I throw righty]

It didn't go down at all, it just had a really hard tail, and the kid I was warmin up with was astounded.

I'll find out tommarrow if it was a fluke, could've been from fatique [I've heard Sinker ballers have more break when they are fatiqued, don't know if it's the same case]
If I can consistantly throw this cutter ish pitch for strikes with the break I had today...


From your description, it sounds possible that fatigue did affect you in a way that caused you to start throwing a slider.

When pitchers get fatigued, it becomes less work to let the hand/wrist supinate into a slider position than to stay behind the ball. Depending on your age and level of physical maturity, this could be bad for you.

But this usually happens when trying to throw a cut fastball where there is already a little supination. You said you were throwing a 2-seamer so I'm a bit confused about this.

EDIT: Never mind my last comment. I re-read and see you did mention throwing a "cutter-ish pitch".
Last edited by Roger Tomas
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
Our pitchers throw the circle change. I've found the best advice to take speed off is to have the young man work on "throwing the wrist to the ground." This still will allow for ball movement and reduce wrist snap. It works for us.


Coach, I'm curious as to how "throwing the wrist to the ground" allows for movement. It seems that doing so and reducing wrist snap would also reduce the pitcher's ability to put spin on the ball in order to get movement.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
RT
quote:
But this usually happens then trying to throw a cut fastball where there is already a little supination. You said you were throwing a 2-seamer so I'm a bit confused about this


RT, IMO I think he was refering to a two seam cross seamer..."I grabbed a ball in a 2 seam grip, across the seams"...maybe.
Last edited by deemax
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
deemax/Texan,

I must admit I messed up my post. I initially thought Dh33 said he through a cutter and that it was breaking 2 feet to the glove side. Then I re-read the original post and for what ever reason (probably 'cause it was late and my brain was shutting down) I missed the reference to the cutter. So I edited my post a bit to remove my own references to cutters but that just "munged" up my post.

Anyway, cutters don't normally break 2 feet. Plus, I've seen cases where pitchers get lazy and don't maintain the slight amount of supination used to throw a cutter. Instead, they let the hand/wrist supinate further and throw a slider.

But, now that I've clarified that, I'm not sure I understand your point. How does using a 2-seam cross-seam grip relate to this situation?
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Anyway, cutters don't normally break 2 feet. Plus, I've seen cases where pitchers get lazy and don't maintain the slight amount of supination used to throw a cutter. Instead, they let the hand/wrist supinate further and throw a slider.

But, now that I've clarified that, I'm not sure I understand your point. How does using a 2-seam cross-seam grip relate to this situation?


You're correct, a cutter doesn't normally break 2'. And as you noted, it isn't unusual for young pitchers to begin supinating some to get more break.

I was just noting that the grip described by the young man, across the two seams, can produce some outside tail. Certainly nowhere near 2', though.
D Dh3310+ posts
yea, for my last few practices, just for kicks, I've grabbed a ball in the same way as I got the serious break[like a cutter] and no luck.
I tried putting pressure on both fingers, still no luck to get what a had

Prolly some crazy fluke, or a scuffed ball or something, but it was pretty cool for that one day lol.

Also, I threw a bullpen lastnight [then to live hitters]
13 outta 15 pitches for strikes, one was a hanging curve [over his head] and the other ball was a fastball outside.
I had a serious tail to my changeup, and I've been developing my knuckle curve again, so far it has been pretty reliable since I can throw it for strikes now.

My fastball was high 70's, low 80's max yesterday, and I felt really good.

HS tryouts on Monday! wish me luck
B baseballpapa100+ posts
Circle change - throw like a fastball and you should get an 8 mph drop (no matter what your pitching gurus tell you.) You will get a bigger drop if you drag the backside. Also, your fastball velocity will affect your drop.

Three finger - finish with your wrist to the ground (don't break your wrists) and you should get a 10 - 12 mph drop. Some describe the wrist to the ground like pulling down a window shade. Experiment to see what is comfortable. The downside to this one is you might hang it.

There are probably as many variations and grips for change-ups as all other pitches. Your fast-ball delivery and what you are comfortable with will dictate the best for you.
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa:
You will get a bigger drop if you drag the backside.


Dragging the back side will change your timing and other aspects of your delivery. That will probably affect your consistency as well as tip off the batter. (The batter doesn't need to know what's different about the pitcher's delivery - just that something is different.)
Last edited by Roger Tomas
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
Our pitchers throw the circle change. I've found the best advice to take speed off is to have the young man work on "throwing the wrist to the ground." This still will allow for ball movement and reduce wrist snap. It works for us.


Coach, I'm curious as to how "throwing the wrist to the ground" allows for movement. It seems that doing so and reducing wrist snap would also reduce the pitcher's ability to put spin on the ball in order to get movement.


Roger, sorry I didn't respond to this quicker. I don't venture in here often. Take a ball and hold it in your hand. Hold the smiley faces at the circle or OK portion of your hand. This also looks like a 4 seam fb position. Now, take your ball, pretend, while holding it, to throw your wrist to the ground. You'll see that in doing so, the ball comes off of those three fingers at a tilt due to the length of those last three fingers. Thus the run. We seem to get a lot of run this way. JMHO!
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Circle change - throw like a fastball and you should get an 8 mph drop (no matter what your pitching gurus tell you.) You will get a bigger drop if you drag the backside. Also, your fastball velocity will affect your drop.


I would have to disagree. The grip alone should provide 10-12 mph. That is based on seeing the radar results many times.

Agree with RT. Do not drag the backside.
Last edited by Texan
H hsballcoach100+ posts
quote:
yea, for my last few practices, just for kicks, I've grabbed a ball in the same way as I got the serious break[like a cutter] and no luck.
I tried putting pressure on both fingers, still no luck to get what a had

Prolly some crazy fluke, or a scuffed ball or something, but it was pretty cool for that one day lol.


Dh,
I know the exact pitch you are talking about. Keep playing around with it. Every once in a while I would throw one out of the blue that would really get the hitters attention. Always was a surprise to me! Across grip two seamer, fingers were a little wider and thrown over the top. I had trouble trying to get the action on the ball when I wanted to but if you ever figure it out...it is a nasty pitch. I still toss one once in a while when I don't mean to and think man, that would be a great pitch.... if I meant to do it! Good luck.

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