Who develops a pitcher better?

I remember during the CWS this being brought up. I was more focused on the college info, and they (the commentators) spoke about how at the college level it's all about winning, many times at the expense of their player's arm.

_______________________
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby, Hall of Famer

Justbball, I think you hit the nail on the head. Good and bad in both ranks. Do your homework and find the coach you feel comfortable with for college.

Sorry, you can't choose your pro coach but things have changed a lot in the past 20 or so years and hopefully the money being invested in player development dictates that each organization has knowledgeable and capable pitching coaches at each level. That being said, I know that some of these coaches have gotten their jobs as a result of having a "name" from being in the Bigs and may not be the best instructors. JMO

Moc1

Which type of organization develops better pitchers? It clearly depends who is talking to you at a particular time. Some major league organizations are much better at it than others, which is also true regarding colleges. It was a major factor in my sons college choice. Due dilegence and research are helpful.

If I recall correctly more major league pitchers attended college than did not.

There are positives and negatives to both options, like $cholarship, draft round, college coach, team drafting, the academic abilities of the player, that must be weighed to make the best decision for that particular player.

Geaux Cajuns

Justball,

Why a top 20 college program? Do you feel the others below that do not have the experience?

rz1 ...

I "second" your question.

Personally, based on our experience and conversations with coaches, we KNOW there are some darn good pitching coaches that are far from the top-20 level. Our son will tell you that he has one of, if not THE, best pitching coach in the country and UCR is not (yet ... ) a top-20 program. But his coach is excellent.

I think that the bottom line is what Dad04 said

quote:

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There are positives and negatives to both options, like $cholarship, draft round, college coach, team drafting, the academic abilities of the player, that must be weighed to make the best decision for that particular player.

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At least in choosing a college, if things go well, you are more involved in "picking" who is coaching you. In the pros, you get what they have.

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Have a blessed Christmas.
H-mom
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"For unto you is born this day ...a Savior ..."

After checking the current 40-man rosters of the first seven teams on the MLB web site, MLB develops significantly more major league pitchers than the traditional top 20 programs. Not even close.

Very few, less than 10 of the 40 pitchers from 4-year schools are from the power conferences, SEC, PAC 10, Big 12, etc., or other top 20 type schools, compared to 25 pitchers signing out of high school. 12 pitchers went from Juco to pro, and 27 were foriegn born.

All that said, generally, about twice the pitchers come from college than high school. I am going to finish the survey and will post the results.

Geaux Cajuns

Hmom,
Who is the pitching coach at UCR?
Thanks,
CADad

rz1 & HMom - good point. I didn't mean it to sound that way. I only referred to top-20 programs to try and keep the discussion focused on the best of each (college and pro). Poor choice of words on my part.

I know many of the best pitching coaches are at all levels of college baseball!

CADad ...

The pitching coach at UCR is a young man named Andrew Checketts. Check out his bio here

http://www.athletics.ucr.edu/baseball/bbstaff.html

His tenure at Riverside Community College was also stellar. One of the highlights of his career at UCR, I think, is his conversion of Jaymie Torres from an outfielder to a pitcher ... one of the two best on the staff ... between the end of Jaymie's freshman season to his sophomore year. After the first 1/3 of the '03 season, Jaymie had become the Friday starter at UCR and he and AJ will share the first 2 starts of each week-end series this spring (barring disaster, that is).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Have a blessed Christmas.
H-mom
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"For unto you is born this day ...a Savior ..."

Hmom,
Thanks,
CADad

Mr and Mrs,
You bring up a good point, that is why it is important to do your homework on the college coach just as he has done homework on your son.
Teamone site has an interesting article about the drafting of college pitchers vs HS pitchers. Seems that the ML teams may be leaning towards college pitchers in this year's draft.

Obviously it depends on the college program but I believe in the majority of cases college coaches are much better "developing" players than the pros. Just a quick story....I'm good friends with the father of a middle reliever who has been pitching in the "bigs" for 5 years. His father says development in most organizations is left to the player. He says the reason is that minor league coaches fear being fired if they try to make a change. BTW, this big league pitcher went to college first. His father says that nearly all of his development should be credited to the college program. Another aside...this player was a first round draft out of college so you'd think they would be very interested in his continued development. His father says they had one goal in the pros....we hope he doesn't get hurt. Any mechanical adjustments (to this day) are made by the player and his dad (the major league team will not suggest anything).

Buckeye...
I don't think that's the rule of thumb, at all...I posted this story Nov 17th...

Roy Halladay

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard

Could it be the high school coach’s job to develop the pitchers??

Like most of the questions, I don't know the answer but this information relayed by Hiwassee Vol in his thread, ”What college coaches are looking for”, was interesting.

quote:

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The biggest thing for Coach Fuller in recruiting pitching is does the player have command of the strike zone. If a player can’t command the strike zone, there in no need to find another pitch. If a player can’t throw a fast ball in the strike zone, in, out and up, then the coaches have to stay right there and command the fast ball first. Coach Fuller is afraid to recruit an 18 year old kid if he can’t command the strike zone. The coaches don’t want to spend their time developing instead of winning. Coaches need to develop the 13-17 year old players to command the strike zone

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Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Fungo,
Good question. In a perfect situation it would be great if a HS coach could develop a pitcher. However, HS resources are thin in regard to "quality" pitching instruction. I think it is a players responsibility to find quality instruction in order to take that next step. Many times that instuction has to be found with a select team, or with private instruction.

must agree with rz1...in a perfect world...hs pitching instruction would come into play...

oh how I wish it had been so...our instruction came in the select route mostly...

and son working on his own...

Chill,

Didn't mean to imply it's rule of thumb. However, this pitcher has been with two major league organizations and it's been the same philosophy with both teams (don't mess with him). The other key is that you normally can't control who drafts you so you need to be very careful with your decisions. Of course there are some very high profile college programs who don't develop players as well. When they routinely sign 10-15 players per year and they have 50 players on their rosters they seem to be less inclined to worry about "development". Generally, they just let the player eliminate himself rather than recognizing potential and developing it. Please don't take any of this as a broad brush but you really need to be careful when deciding what you want.

Good question,

IMHO - It is a learning process from the time the pitcher decides he wants to pitch which may begin in little league. He learns something new every year and builds upon his arsenal at every level. When he hits his senior year in high school, you hope the "projectability" is there for the college or MLB scouts. I wouldn't think too many Cy Youngs come out of high school. The degree of "projectability" that a pitcher has can be seen by the amount of the signing bonus for MLB and for college I would think it would be the stature of the college that awards the scholarship. As to whom develops a pitcher better would be difficult to asess and probably will vary from college to college and MLB org to MLB org with good and bad in both.

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!

Chicks

Your right about more Cy Young winners coming out of college than high school. Randy Johnson won 4 in a row and went to So. Cal., We all know Clemens went to Texas. Pedro signed out of DR, no college, Roy Halladay signed out of high school, Eric Gagne went to Juco for a year to learn the language. Barry Zito was a college star at SC.

Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux of course did not go to college. The Braves are more high school oriented than the average team.

If you take out the Brave Cy Young winners for the past 10 years, only Pedro and Halladay skipped college.

Geaux Cajuns!!

There are many teams that won't give big money to high school pitchers. Let them go to school and then draft the healthy ones three years later. It has a lot more to do about injuries than development. If you sign a high school kid, you cross your fingers that he does not get hurt for about 4-5 years while he is developing. A college guy, you only need to cross your fingers for about 3 years.

You also get to see him longer if he opts for college...You have more numbers to predict what he may be able to contribute down the road...
Bigger and stronger and more games under his belt.

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard

Very true statement Chill. As a scout the thing I worry about is passing up a talented high school player when I have a chance to draft him. Since we only get to pick once every 30 picks, we many times miss out on players that we really wanted. I would draft them all as soon as I could (high school), but it is not my money that I am spending either.

I find it interesting to go to the different teams and look at their first 10 picks...
And see the trend of some teams to almost exclusively pick college players(Oakland, Toronto, Red Sox) and then look at the large number of hs players the Yankees usually draft?

My example of Halladay wasn't a good one.
I didn't mean to turn the original question into a conversation about Cy winners out of hs vs.college.
It is just my opinion that MLB coaches do
develop...and I see the overuse, abusive pitch counts and excessive breaking pitches(due to aluminum bat fear) in college ball as a reason for concern. Chicks said it well...that there are obviously programs at both levels who do it better than others.

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard