Runner stealing 2B. Catcher sails the ball into CF who is coming in but boots the ball and when runner sees this advances to 3B.
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quote:Originally posted by cball:
Runner stealing 2B. Catcher sails the ball into CF who is coming in but boots the ball and when runner sees this advances to 3B.
Did the runner advance because the throw went into center field, or because the CF booted the ball? I’m gonna go out on a limb because I can’t see the play, and charge the E to the C. All he had to do was make a throw the infielders could handle and the CF wouldn’t have had to be involved.
he advanced because CF booted.
SB, E8.
quote:Originally posted by cball:
he advanced because CF booted.
I’m trying to picture the play where the CF on a SB is responsible for a runner moving on to 3rd, and while I admit its “possible”, I’m having a really hard time seeing it happening. I can see it on a ball hit to the OF, but not on one thrown.
I have to agree with Stats on this one... It's "possible" but the ball is in CF because the catcher threw it there, which isn't where it was supposed to be...
Like Stats, I wasn't there either, don't know level of play, how shallow the CF was playing, etc. But it would have to be some kind of exceptional play to score an E8.
Like Stats, I wasn't there either, don't know level of play, how shallow the CF was playing, etc. But it would have to be some kind of exceptional play to score an E8.
What if the ss/2b man was not able to receive the throw because the catcher one hopped it then, as the ball goes into center, the CF miss judges it and the ball gets past him.
To me there is an arguement that there is no error on the catcher. Runner is credited for a stolen base. But the error is on the CF for the advance to 3b. Even if yo do give the catcher an E on the play at 2nd, the CF error was the reason for the advance.
However I have seen "trick plys" where the CF sneaks in to take the throw at 2nd base (especially youth ball)because he is playing very shallow and just for this reason. Then I suppose you could have an error on the catcher or the CF but in this nstance, not both.
To me there is an arguement that there is no error on the catcher. Runner is credited for a stolen base. But the error is on the CF for the advance to 3b. Even if yo do give the catcher an E on the play at 2nd, the CF error was the reason for the advance.
However I have seen "trick plys" where the CF sneaks in to take the throw at 2nd base (especially youth ball)because he is playing very shallow and just for this reason. Then I suppose you could have an error on the catcher or the CF but in this nstance, not both.
This is a hypothetical example that I have just wondered about. The scorer can credit a SB or error to account for the runner reaching 2B but how to account for the runner advancing to 3B. has to be an error and it seems ordinary effort by F8 keeps the runner at 2B.
I've seen runner slide at 2B and ball go into cnter and not advance because CF closed in and picked ball cleanly. So giving an error to CF seems only possible if the runner held second and CF came in and simply overran the ball and then runner advanced.
Another scenario..topper in front of the plate and catcher fields the ball and makes throw to first that is a bang bang play. Throw eludes 1B and goes up the line. Runner does not immediately turn becasue RF moved in and to the line. The RF misses the ball and then runner goes to 2B. I'd argue basehit and E9.
Another scenario..topper in front of the plate and catcher fields the ball and makes throw to first that is a bang bang play. Throw eludes 1B and goes up the line. Runner does not immediately turn becasue RF moved in and to the line. The RF misses the ball and then runner goes to 2B. I'd argue basehit and E9.
Here’s the deal. ANYTHING can be argued, and two people can and often do see things differently. But, without seeing a play in person, there’s nothing to do by make an educated guess. All JMoff and I are saying is, based on our experience in the game as scorers, and knowing the scoring rules, its really difficult to imagine scoring an error on anyone other than the thrower on a throw that goes wild. Yes, it can happen, but believe me, its not something that happens regularly at any level in baseball.
quote:but believe me, its not something that happens regularly at any level in baseball
The part where the ball goes into the OF happens quite often but usually the F8 just picks it up and holds the runner where he is.
Actually, in my experience as the level of play advances (beyond HS) and the CF is starting off deeper and the base runners are faster, a ball thrown in CF frequently results in R1 at 3rd and E-2.
As Stats says, anything can happen and casting an opinion on a play not witnessed is pure conjecture on our part.
Certainly, if R1 stands up at second, watches the ball easily roll to F8, sees him over run it and takes off again for third, I might score E-8. I can't say I've ever seen this happen and scored it that way, but anything is possible. It would have to be some extreme case.
Another example might be a PO attempt at first, thrown wildly into the RF corner. R1 takes off for second. As ball is rolling around in the corner, RF over runs it and R1 takes third. Would I score E-1 and E-9? Probably not. I'd score a two base E-1 99.99% of the time. Maybe an E-9 in some extreme case but something really unique would have to happen. The ball is only in the RF corner because F1 threw it there, so it's his error.
By the way a little off topic but I saw a college game where F6 and F4 failed to cover second on a steal attempt but F2 made a good throw down and the runner advanced to third. The scorer waited until after the post game interviews to assign the error to F4, who admitted he was the middle infielder who should've covered. I don't know where this is in the rules but I've at least seen it scored this way once.
As Stats says, anything can happen and casting an opinion on a play not witnessed is pure conjecture on our part.
Certainly, if R1 stands up at second, watches the ball easily roll to F8, sees him over run it and takes off again for third, I might score E-8. I can't say I've ever seen this happen and scored it that way, but anything is possible. It would have to be some extreme case.
Another example might be a PO attempt at first, thrown wildly into the RF corner. R1 takes off for second. As ball is rolling around in the corner, RF over runs it and R1 takes third. Would I score E-1 and E-9? Probably not. I'd score a two base E-1 99.99% of the time. Maybe an E-9 in some extreme case but something really unique would have to happen. The ball is only in the RF corner because F1 threw it there, so it's his error.
By the way a little off topic but I saw a college game where F6 and F4 failed to cover second on a steal attempt but F2 made a good throw down and the runner advanced to third. The scorer waited until after the post game interviews to assign the error to F4, who admitted he was the middle infielder who should've covered. I don't know where this is in the rules but I've at least seen it scored this way once.
quote:I don't know where this is in the rules but I've at least seen it scored this way once.
Hey there JMoff - hope things are well. The OBR reference you're looking for is in 10.12(a):
"The official scorer shall cage an error against any fielder ...
(8) whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner
to advance, so long as there was occasion for the throw. If such throw was
made to second base, the official scorer shall determine whether it was the duty
of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball and shall charge an
error to the negligent fielder.
Rule 10.12(a)(8) Comment: If, in the official scorer’s judgment, there was no occasion for the throw, the official scorer shall charge an error to the fielder who threw the ball.
Hope that helps.
RPD:
It does help, thanks for looking this up for me.
I'm getting lazy in my old age...
It does help, thanks for looking this up for me.
I'm getting lazy in my old age...
The rules explicitly state that you cannot presume the out at 2nd on the throw down, so even if you think a good throw would've gotten the runner, there is no error on a bad throw that sails into CF -- at least, not for the runner reaching 2nd.
The question then becomes whether the runner saw the throw get into the outfield and IMMEDIATELY took off, or whether he saw the throw approaching the CF, held at 2nd, and then took off only after seeing the CF muff it.
If the runner took off immediately upon seeing the overthrow, then his advance to 3rd is by virtue of E2. On the other hand, if he held up, then took off only after CF muffed it, there is no E2 at all but the advance is the result of an E8.
Since the original post suggests the latter situation, it is an E8 here, no E2 at all.
Suppose you think that the runner took off immediately upon seeing the overthrow go into the outfield, but you think he should've been out because the CF would've had him dead to rights with a reasonable catch and throw. Because the out at third on such a play cannot be presumed, the advance here is still deemed to be the result of the catcher's errant throw and not the outfield misplay. So, it's still an E2. That is, you don't make your decision based on whether or not the CF could've gotten him. You make the decision based on how you observed the runner reacting as the play unfolded.
Changing the facts a little can also help understand the rules of scoring. Suppose the runner took off for 3rd immediately upon seeing the throw go through into the outfield, had the ball been fielded cleanly there he would've gotten no further than 3rd, but the CF's muff allows him to score. In this scenario, you would score his advance to 2nd as a SB, his advance to 3rd as an E2, and his advance home as an E8, all on one play.
The question then becomes whether the runner saw the throw get into the outfield and IMMEDIATELY took off, or whether he saw the throw approaching the CF, held at 2nd, and then took off only after seeing the CF muff it.
If the runner took off immediately upon seeing the overthrow, then his advance to 3rd is by virtue of E2. On the other hand, if he held up, then took off only after CF muffed it, there is no E2 at all but the advance is the result of an E8.
Since the original post suggests the latter situation, it is an E8 here, no E2 at all.
Suppose you think that the runner took off immediately upon seeing the overthrow go into the outfield, but you think he should've been out because the CF would've had him dead to rights with a reasonable catch and throw. Because the out at third on such a play cannot be presumed, the advance here is still deemed to be the result of the catcher's errant throw and not the outfield misplay. So, it's still an E2. That is, you don't make your decision based on whether or not the CF could've gotten him. You make the decision based on how you observed the runner reacting as the play unfolded.
Changing the facts a little can also help understand the rules of scoring. Suppose the runner took off for 3rd immediately upon seeing the throw go through into the outfield, had the ball been fielded cleanly there he would've gotten no further than 3rd, but the CF's muff allows him to score. In this scenario, you would score his advance to 2nd as a SB, his advance to 3rd as an E2, and his advance home as an E8, all on one play.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
…Suppose the runner took off for 3rd immediately upon seeing the throw go through into the outfield, had the ball been fielded cleanly there he would've gotten no further than 3rd, but the CF's muff allows him to score. In this scenario, you would score his advance to 2nd as a SB, his advance to 3rd as an E2, and his advance home as an E8, all on one play.
That scenario may seem wild to some, but the fact that scenarios like that do exist, and they aren’t at all uncommon, is what’s causing me a great deal of consternation with my new program. There are many things I have the computer do automatically. FI, if there’s a runner on 2nd, I have the computer score the runner on a double, triple or home run. But on a single, I only move the runner from 2nd to 3rd, and even that has bitten me on the keester. There aren’t many times a runner on 2nd wouldn’t advance on a single, or many times that a runner on 3rd wouldn’t advance on a double, but they happen.
Midlo - Thanks for doing a much better job of describing the scenario I was efforting. It would be a rare play at the college or professional levels of play but do happen.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The rules explicitly state that you cannot presume the out at 2nd on the throw down, so even if you think a good throw would've gotten the runner, there is no error on a bad throw that sails into CF -- at least, not for the runner reaching 2nd.
I think we all agree the advance to second is a SB and the "error" discussion only applies to the advance to third. If I(we) haven't been clear on that, I (we) should've been. Thanks for pointing that out.
quote:If the runner took off immediately upon seeing the overthrow, then his advance to 3rd is by virtue of E2. On the other hand, if he held up, then took off only after CF muffed it, there is no E2 at all but the advance is the result of an E8.
I'm not trying to be argumentative and only one person in this thread actually saw the play in question, but I can still see cases where the scenario above is an E-2. What if the ball takes a bad hop? What if the throw really wasn't as close to F8 as the base runner thought when he stopped? What if he stopped because he didn't see the throw go wild in the first place, picked up the ball late and decided to run late? I would still score E-2 in these cases.
Granted the original play wasn't described this way, it was described as a boot by CF. If the runner stopped at second, there was a very ordinary effort play for F8 to stop the ball and he didn't and the runner then went to third after the boot, I'd score E-8 as well. This is also the only scenario I can think of where I wouldn't score an E-2.
I just haven't see this happen very often.