Who needs pitch counts?

Pretty soon I'm sure we'll be seeing a bunch of youth coaches quoting Nolan Ryan and throwing their 9-14u kids complete games regardless of pitch counts because "Nolan said so and he knows more than you". What's good for a grown mature adult isn't always good for a teen or pre-teen. His approach is scary for kids...

True but we're not talking about kids sub 10-14.

Kids do need to "throw" more, not pitch more, in my opinion. I agree that travel ball in particular does a lot of damage to kids arms.

"...we're not talking about kids sub 10-14."

Sorry, guess I misunderstood your point when you mixed in comments about your 12 year old son.

Amen. Throw away pitch counts and watch the performance of the pitcher.

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about your 12 year old son.

I see where your misunderstanding came from.. He said "since he was 12" so he must be older?

I am a huge proponent of THROWING more and pitching less. This topic with Nolan Ryan and the Rangers' program was brought up a few weeks ago as well. I think it's great and I couldn't believe the lack of preparation professional players take to get ready. They have a long season so their arms need to be in tip-top shape or there will be multiple injuries.

That said, not everything done at the professional level will work with youth athletes. But strengthening the arm through long toss is something every ballplayer should do IMO.

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That said, not everything done at the professional level will work with youth athletes. But strengthening the arm through long toss is something every ballplayer should do IMO.

Absolutely agree 100%. My comments were in regard to Nolan Ryan's "you're there to pitch the whole game" thinking. I don't have a problem with that thinking at all for grown, mature adults paid to do what they do. They make their own decisions. My concern is about the fool youth coaches who want to apply the same thinking to middle schoolers, and to a lesser degree high schoolers.

"since" sometimes translates to "because"...but not when you read too fast.

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Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Pretty soon I'm sure we'll be seeing a bunch of youth coaches quoting Nolan Ryan and throwing their 9-14u kids complete games regardless of pitch counts because "Nolan said so and he knows more than you". What's good for a grown mature adult isn't always good for a teen or pre-teen. His approach is scary for kids...

From LL through high school I completed every game I started. In high school I often relieved in one other game during the week. I never had a sore arm. Pre high school I threw all summer; baseballs, tennis balls, whiffle balls and newspaper stuffed Dixie cups. What I didn't do was pitch 100 innings of travel ball every year starting at age nine. And I didn't play baseball from October until March.

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Originally posted by therefump:
Amen. Throw away pitch counts and watch the performance of the pitcher.

Watch the mechanics. I've seen some great performances with mechanics that ultimately did damage.

I teach my guys to "finish what they start" and think it can work at all levels if you

1. Teach them to throw strikes
2. Teach them to be efficient in their mechanics
3. Teach the defense to make plays behind the pitcher
4. Make the pitcher's conditioning a priority to be able to handle the long haul

A pitcher who goes 3 - 2 on every hitter and / or 1 or 2 runners on base will not finish what they start. Might be lucky to just qualify for the win.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Pre high school I threw all summer; baseballs, tennis balls, whiffle balls and newspaper stuffed Dixie cups. What I didn't do was pitch 100 innings of travel ball every year starting at age nine. And I didn't play baseball from October until March.

I think RJM has it spot on. Kids in the past threw alot - but pitched much less. They also got "active rest" The players that have problems today are that they are not throwing and preparing their arm for pitching and then go out and pitch 10-15 innings in a week-end year round with out rests.

I am not sure about the pro's but there seems to be a "baby the pitcher" approach in the pros and not letting them train their arms for the task at hand.

I see it in HS where kids do not get in proper LT at practice and very few really know how to prepare themselves pre and post game.

Guess what - kids from the Dominican get sore arms and drop out of the game. Pitchers from the past got sore arms and dropped out of the game. A lot of Japanese kids develop sore arms and other injuries and drop out of the game. When I was in LL and Pony league kids threw complete games got sore arms and dropped out of the game. Guys who went to Jaeger develop sore arms and drop out of the game.

There is no one right way for every pitcher. Every pitcher is different and you have to experiment to see what works best for the individual. Not only that but they change as they grow.

I threw tennis balls when I was a kid and my arm always hurt afterwards. I threw complete games and my elbow ached toward the end of the game. Everyone is different, especially Nolan Ryan. I'd wait and see how their little experiment works out before you try it yourself. My guess is that they'll weed out some very good pitchers in the process of finding a few pitchers with rubber arms who may or may not have MLB talent.

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My guess is that they'll weed out some very good pitchers in the process of finding a few pitchers with rubber arms who may or may not have MLB talent.

A pitcher sitting on the DL doesn't do the team any good.

Example: Chris Carpenter with the Cardinals. Sure, he's a great pitcher; was supposed to be the ace of the staff in 2009.. and 2008, and 2007. Instead, he's spent almost the entire time on the DL. As far as I'm concerned, it's time to cut him loose because he is no longer reliable and he is slowing the Cards down. Meanwhile, there are other pitchers who may not be as good of a pitcher as he is, but they will be healthy and they can get the job done.

I am curiously watching how this is gonna play out.

NR should know, that not all pitchers are the same and not all pitchers should be treated the same, except in their conditioning, which includes a good throwing program, something I am not sure the Rangers were good at in the past.

If it was that easy to figure out, everyone would be on the same page.

Bulldog, that's a great idea you got there!
Problem is, there are healthier pitchers than him out there (this goes for every team), but they lack the experience and maturity, some teams balk at letting their youngsters learn on the big stage.
Times are changing, thank goodness.

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Bulldog, that's a great idea you got there! Wink
Problem is, there are healthier pitchers than him out there (this goes for every team), but they lack the experience and maturity, some teams balk at letting their youngsters learn on the big stage.

TPM, the Cardinals had the chance to pick up Jake Peavy this past offseason. Reasons they wouldn't sign him: $$ of course, Mr. De(wallet) as they call him wasn't going to open his wallet; also, "we got Chris Carpenter and we don't need him."

Gee, even if Carp had stayed healthy, just think if the Cardinals had Carpenter and Peavy on consecutive days in the rotation-- they'd win nearly every series just like that!

BD,
The Cards are following the philosophy of their scouting and farm director who has the GM doing same, we develop and use our own talent, even if it means less wins than losses, and I think he has the owners attention.

I look at this as a good thing.