Why do coaches ruin players

BILL

Think about this a minute--- most kids today don't play "catch"--they don't practice on their own--they only throw when coach is there

As a kid we were throwing every day--playing "catch"-- and we had no sore arms

It is not so much overuse by youth coaches but possibly more of a cause is the underuse by the kids themselves

TRhit

I know of a player who was headed to a JUCO...grduated in 2003...his team made playoffs his senior year..he was their ace pitcher...game after game...sometimes with 2 days rest..and sometimes going 5-7 innings twice a week...did they do great?

sure...is he pitching in college now? no..got arm problems...

makes me wonder....

I know of another player..he's an 04...his coach played him back to back and threw mostly just him last year...has he had problems...?

yes......

(I do agree about kids not throwing on their own..and just playing catch...)

But...

I think i know the pitcher you are talking about TExas.

When my arm started to hurt, i started lifting weights, and ever since i have been in the weight room the tendonitis has gone away. I think even with the 3 day rest thing, pitcher should be able to stay healthy if they stay in the weight room and run enough on their off days.

On top of the conditioning benefit of running, pitchers should also run after they throw. Running helps to rid the body of lactic acid which in turn helps to arm to recover faster.

You guys bring up great points, but I think we may be on different wave lengths. My biggest problem and concern isnt with the condition of these kids getting hurt, its the fact that kids 12 -16 are throwing on 3 days rest, and for what? For a pony league title? Is it worth having a kid thats 14 and could have a great varsity career throw over 90 pitches? No its not, there is no reason that any one under the varsity level should throw over 60 pitches, and if they do throw more, they should move up gradually 60...65...70 and so on to condition their arm. What happens is coaches get desperate, and the kids feel the aftermath of that a year, two years, 5 years later when they have to have TJ. Now i know that not everyone has the kid of future Kerry Wood did, but he threw a double header, both games over 100 pitches...for a high school title? Well he paid the price because his coach got desperate and didnt entrust in his team, and used and abused a player that now has lost almost 2 years to recovering from TJ, and finally is where he should have been a few years back. Now again, I know that the avgerage player doesnt have that opportunity, but it doesnt matter,the pros, d1-d3, juco naia, a kid shouldnt have to pay the price for bad coaching. Guys i know that had TJ where in great shape, lifted, played catch, ran after....the works...but there was nothing they could do. Yes the early signs are something like tendanitus, but with the labrum, they cant do anything until its fully torn. So you have signs and symptoms, and you try to rehab it, and make it stronger, but 3 months later you still cant throw pain free, so your left with losing 12-16 months of your baseball life. In my many talks with a MLB GM, he has told me that almost every young prospect they kid, if they have ANY signs of needing TJ, they send him in and get it over with. I have been doing camps for the midwest baseball academy, and I have seen some very dishartening things..Parents telling little jonny, who is 12, to throw more curve balls, then being confronted and asked why I told their son that he is to young for that, espeically when they arch there back and use all arm...i really just want to give them Toninos card and say "call this guy in a few years" I just dont see the reasoning, its not about innings, its about pitches. That cant be stressed enough, enough the finest conditioned athlete, is prone to something like this. What the hell are you playing for at ages 12-16...isnt the point to develop players? Not to put all consideration aside so you can put a trophy in your living room? Now i know that for every bad coach, that does this, there are 4 good ones that really care about the players. I have seen it to many times, friends, teammates, players that were abused as young kids, and they paid the consequences, well the coaches never changed...The player is stuck battling for 12-16 months, just to get back, and I have seen how mentally detramental it is, and its just not right. Little joeys got a good duece, let him throw 80 percent of his pitches that way. A good example I have now, is a coach that wants a kid that is going on to college to catch, to do both pitch and catch this year, his sr year of hs, and doesnt get why the kid is objected to it...How does a guy like that get a job at a high school as a head coach? When a 17 year old kid knows that doing that may be the worst thing possible, and a 47 year old adult doesnt. Again, I have a biast because I have seen this stuff to many times...win win win...in little league? what do you win? is it worth little bobby pitching 3 games a week? Is it worth having a freshmen throw 100 pitches? Now please realize these views are from my personal experiences, and I am understanding that this doesnt happen everywhere

Bill Dwoinen Jr
Assistant Coach Melrose Indians Baseball www.melroseindians.com

Great points all around. I will through another bone into this...not little league though. My senior year in college, we basically had 2 main pitchers, both seniors, and another junior. Myself and the other senior approached the coach and said we wanted the ball every possible start...he said only if we busted our tail from fall on into the season...well, we did, and we got the ball. Pitched on a couple days rest when we had to, but we were prepared, we were conditioned for it. It was not uncommon for us to throw maybe 120 pitches no problem. Point is, we were college guys, and prepared accordingly...not 12 years old. Now, after college, I played for a summer team and had nothing to save myself for anymore...went to a few tryouts, nothing came of it. In a one-week span, I went 12 innings, twice. Saturday, Saturday. But I did it on my own, coach wanted me to come out, but I insisted I could keep going....and I did, we won both games if I remember. Dumbest thing I ever did cause my arm is not the same. My last game that summer, I could barely get the ball to the plate...my last memory of playing was throwing 4 pitches that bounced in, around 50 mph. Only time in my life I told my coach to take me out. Now, I ended up playing 1B the next summer and then sat out the next 1 or 2. Finally this passed year, I came back again and did well. Point is, I put my arm through hell and back and that was at the age of 22+. Kids who are 12 can in no way deal with that type of wear and tear. Now as a high school coach, I have my 4 starting pitchers going through a rigorous rotation, yes it is 3 days, but they are prepared. Working hard, running and icing everyday. Now, the other factor is what is inside...if you don't have the desire to be the best and work hard, forget it. These guys have that desire and they see good things ahead this year. It boils down to being fully prepared to pitch...simply put, a 12 year old is not prepared to do what many coaches ask of them.

This is exactly what my son is faceing right now. It's amazing
what goes through the minde of some coaches.

The problem is that most high school coaches have huge egos with a win at all costs attitude instead of teaching and training players.

The problem is the parents never played the game at a high level or they ran a little league team and they feel the have the right to second guess everything a coach does from behind the chain link fence. Huge egos?

Huge Egos!.. Ok, Fungo "MASTER"... I think most of us Parents, have a good idea of the basics. Particularly the ones on this site. So Please, No Parent bashing.

Hey, we are not all parents! Its a shame that there are so many people out there that know the game, yet there are high school coaches that get mad when a plaayer says no to pitching game one and catching game 2, or a coach that calls 75 percent curveballs and doesnt understand why the kid cant break 80. There are coaches, and then people who coach baseball, the first are scarce, the second are in abundance

quote:

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Originally posted by Fungo Master:
The problem is the parents never played the game at a high level or they ran a little league team and they feel the have the right to second guess everything a coach does from behind the chain link fence. Huge egos?

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Fungo Master - No huge ego here. Problems with our original coach at our high school is well documented in the news. BeenthereIL will vouch for it...

You can bash coaches on this website and not bash parents? Do I have that right? It seems this is a bash site for high school coaches and a mental ************ for the travel coaches. Alot of ego stroking going on here by travel parents/coaches.

In the news I have seen some pretty sick things by the parents. A shooting because someone's little girl did not make the cheerleading squad, a fist fight with a coach because someone's son is not starting. Racial comments from behind the left field fence.

I'm sorry, but if any group should be bashed it should be the parents. It always amazed me that you need a licence to drive a car, but you don't need a licence to be a parent.

A license to drive as high school junior.

jakec, you have a point. how about the dad (probably doesn't deserve the title) that came out of the stands at hinsdale central to punch an oprf lacrosse player. a grown man punching a little girl. this happened last week and the guy must have some clout as he was not arrested and oakbrook police seem to be stalling after charges were filed the following day. coaches that do not have the best interests of their players in mind are a problem but parents of this ilk are a menace.

well said JakeC

These are all good points. I coach a travel team that our coaches main goal is to improve and get to the next level. A coach overpitching a kid is either ignorance or ego. Pitch counts should always be checked on during the course of a game. If a coach feels he only has 1 or 2 good pitchers, then he better start helping the other ones improve so the innings can be spread around. Any time a pitcher is joining a new team the parents should ask the coach what his philosophy is on pitch counts and curveballs. If he doesnt have a good answer, dont put your kid on that team. It is that simple. Wheather your kid is a future star or not it is not worth destroying his future in this great game.

It really is the coach's job to monitor a players pitch count. I have my pitchers on a tubing, med ball, and conditioning routine that should help them be in better pitching shape. We also are building them up on the mound and are currently at about 40 pitches in our bullpen sessions. We should be at about 70 pitches by the time the season rolls around. Some of my guys have been pitching all winter and are ready to throw 70-80 pitches right now. However, each pitcher at the varsity level will be a bit different with how long they can go in a game. To say that no pitcher should pitch over 100 pitches in a game may not be accurate. Maybe there are a few pitchers that can go into the 100's because of the conditioning and their competitiveness. Some may lose their effectivenes after 20 pitches. Others may throw their best stuff in the bullpen. I have eight pitchers(pitchers only)on my staff and another two to three that can throw when needed. (This doesn't mean that I have 10 guys that can throw a complete game) I shouldn't have to overthrow anyone. I feel that it is selfish of a coach to over pitch their star just to win a couple of games. There are many coaches that live for the "hardware" that they can get and will abuse a player. I have seen it on many occassions. The IHSA has changed their playoff system to force teams to go at least two deep for starters during the regionals and sectionals. In 2002 a team could pitch their #1 for each regional game. Once a team gets to the final 8 they will probably have to go three deep. This rewards the team that has spread out their innings throughout the year. Playing in the Upstate Eight Conference forces us to go three sometimes four deep with our starting rotation during league play. Well, I am glad I stumbled on this board. Good luck to all.

DC, I agree 100% with that post. Some players can throw 100+ some lose it after 40 pitches. I think there should only be a pitch count in the first couple starts of the season while the weather is still ******. Last year I threw 120+ pitches in the regional championship game, and 110 pitches in the sectional championship. My arm was fine and ready to pitch again. If the kid can handle it, and conditions himself right, there shouldnt be a problem with pitch count.

Kenny, I disagee that there shouldn't be a pitch count after the first couple starts. Coaches should always know and track how many pitches a player is at. Going high in pitch count often will take it's toll on an arm. The arm maybe fine now but later down the line, sometimes years, something can happen due to the over-use. When it comes to young arm a coach should be safe rather than sorry.

The problem with high pitch count games is that the damege doesn't always show up the next day or the next week--- It may be ayear later or so that somethings goes awry--- no need to be a hero and brag about high pitch counts back to back--you do not know what is down the road.

Other factors also are present that have to be taken into consideration

Weather
How tough was the outing?
How many breaking pitches?

Thats a good point, and I am not bragging. The weather was hot.. and i threw 80% fast balls. My point is, if the player is in good enough shape to do that, I dont think there is a problem.

Guys as a catcher I know from experience. A former teammate of mine and also a very good friend of mine was an excellent pitcher. In Bronco League(1 step below Pony) he was throwing 80-85. I dont know of many Jr. High Players who can do that. He and I did play catch everyday and his dad had us both working with professional scouts and trainers to get him to be the best that he possibly could. I got to catch him for 3 seasons and then he hurt his arm. I remember being there at Freshmen JV tryouts at my high school and due to his arm injury he could no longer pitch so he made a move to 1B. Throughout his 8th grade year the coach who is also the varsity high school coach made him play hurt. Then at tryouts coach came up to the kid and litterally cussed him out and jumped down his throat because he told him that he couldnt pitch. The coach at my school has ruined more pitchers and catchers than I can count. Yet he still cant manage to win a state title. I got to catch for this friend again last summer and it was his first year back since our freshman year and he could only have a 40 pitch pitch-count. He was good for 2-3 innings max. His velocity dropped about 10-15 mph. I dont know why the coaches do this to kids so much but in the town i live in there are injured players all the time. Others at my school have either quit baseball completly or moved to other schools because of this coach. it is a shame to see so many good players quit or move to smaller schools because of a problem that i believe could be fixed very easily. Coaches here want to win so badly that the health and the careers of their players for the most part mean nothing to them for the most part. That is one big reason why the cream of the crop here have quit playing summer league and have went to much better Bullets or other traveling teams in our area and many players have just hung it up all together or moved.

Catcher 44,
You wouldnt be referring to Casey Morris would you?

No. I knew Casey though but that isnt who I am referring to. The guy I am referring to is from Mt. Carmel i do not know if you are familiar with that area. It is about 92 miles from where I live now in Marion.

I have lived in Marion all of my life but i had family in Mt. Carmel so i was lucky enough to get to play on two summer league teams in different towns. I know many many stories from Marion and Mt. Carmel but i was just referring to one to show how coaches go overboard.

I know where mt carmel is. I guess you are talking about Coach Butler in some of your earlier posts. You have a pm 44

Did anyone happen to catch the HBO Real Sports on pitching?

If not, they had a doctor on who has been doing tommy john sugeries to boys ages 11-13, enough to make someone sick.

He wants to start making coaches responsable and liable for such things.

I wanted to give my take on the subject and also get some of yours in return

I think its a joke some of the mentalities coaches have for young kids....11-13 year olds playing year round? Hello...most professional pitchers do not pick up a baseball from when the season ends until about december...how and why would anyone think a growing boy can maintain health during such a season. Another point of view this doctor had was these coaches are ruining these kids....for what? The coach may have a trophy on there mantle, meanwhile they hurt the future of a young kid. Example being Kerry Woods High school coach has a state ring, and he did so by throwing Wood a double header in one day over 100 pitches each game...Now was wood all for it, im sure, but its the coaches job to step in and say no....As that trophy hangs somewhere in Texas, Kerry Woods career has been filled with inconsistancy and injury and thats where most of it stems from.

I will use a friend of mines HS as another example...I believe over the last 9 years, 6-7 of the schools number ones have faced TJ surgery or arm problems out of hs...this is because a coach had the theory of "lets throw as many curveballs as possible" and constantly would have kids over the 100 pitch mark. I know some people have the attitude its not a coaches job to prepare kids for college, and that to me is very false.

Back to the show, it had the idea of outlawing curveballs until age 14-15 (a survery taken of MLB players stated that was the best age), if a kid were to throw a duece, he would be ejected...this doctor also wanted to mandate pitch limits as apposed to inning limits...which is a good point.

Will any of this ever happen? I hope so because it was sick to hear and to see what coaches do to kids, to see how desperate someone could be to win a pony league tournament and so on....Its time to stand up and make changes, there is no reason for an 11 year old boy to need MAJOR reconstructive survey

Now we all get caught in the heat of the momement, sure guys have throw on short rest and no rest at all in big situations....but at ages 11-13 I dont believe, in the big picture, there are big situations.

This is a very highly debated topic, and I personally have strong views on it because of the type of coaches I grew up with, ones that monitored pitches ata young age, encouraged and forced proper handling on off days and enough rest. I am not a win at any coact kind of guy, and maybe thats good, maybe thats bad....but would I do know is that I would never but a young childs health and risk to win a baseball game, because we all know that in the big picture, its not about wins and loses.

if you have any comments about my statements, please contact me at dwoinen@yahoo.com because I do not access this site very often

Looking forward to your comments