Why is analyzing Mechanics so confusing?

Good topic GB.

I don't know if it is really confusing or because many make it confusing. I don't care who is analyzing what, the way I see it, every pitcher at sometime in his career is going to have a setback and most will tell you it is because they did too much when they were younger. Or they did something that caused something to happen. The good in all of this is the awareness that over use can hurt you, better core training for all pitchers, the more imformation given on how to treat young pitchers only helps them to stay healthier, but sometimes even doing all you can won't stop an physiological problem that no one can see. Mine is a good example of that, known for having good clean mechanics, throughout his career, only someone looking for what they did found something that is not usually there. You don't want to know how many HOURS they have observed son to try to figure out (with good mechanics) what was causing his issue.

I agree with your statement that most of the really good pitchers don't "learn", they have a natural ability that makes them who they are.

A loss if velocity is pretty simple, usually a sign there is something happening. It's when you still maintain velocity but have issues that is so confusing.

heard this analysis at tbca clinic last weekend from a great d1 pitching coach. ug could pick up a spear, throw it overhand, throw it hard, and throw it on the money. he had to to kill meat and live. he didnt have anybody to anaylize his throwing motion and screw it up. it was natural. i thought that was great point.

People can "see" only what they can see. Combine that with a very high speed movement that happens in a split second, along with that fact that the body can organize itself to perform this task a thousand different ways, and you have lot's of room for confusion.

Another basic question. What is "good mechanics".

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Originally posted by TPM:
Good topic GB.

I don't know if it is really confusing or because many make it confusing. I don't care who is analyzing what, the way I see it, every pitcher at sometime in his career is going to have a setback and most will tell you it is because they did too much when they were younger. Or they did something that caused something to happen. The good in all of this is the awareness that over use can hurt you, better core training for all pitchers, the more imformation given on how to treat young pitchers only helps them to stay healthier, but sometimes even doing all you can won't stop an physiological problem that no one can see. Mine is a good example of that, known for having good clean mechanics, throughout his career, only someone looking for what they did found something that is not usually there. You don't want to know how many HOURS they have observed son to try to figure out (with good mechanics) what was causing his issue.

I agree with your statement that most of the really good pitchers don't "learn", they have a natural ability that makes them who they are.

A loss if velocity is pretty simple, usually a sign there is something happening. It's when you still maintain velocity but have issues that is so confusing.

Went to a recent camp with son and the best advice he received at that camp was the importance of taking care of oneself physically to be able to throw without injury. The pitching coach went over dozens of different strength training drills and the importance of not pitching while fatigued due mainly to not training enough physically to be able to throw. The other aspects of the camp regarding "mechanics" was quite confusing- three separate coaches teaching according to their own philosophy and from repeating others philosophies.

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Originally posted by raiderbb:
heard this analysis at tbca clinic last weekend from a great d1 pitching coach. ug could pick up a spear, throw it overhand, throw it hard, and throw it on the money. he had to to kill meat and live. he didnt have anybody to anaylize his throwing motion and screw it up. it was natural. i thought that was great point.

I like that analogy, it really applies.

After a couple of years, you will develop your own pet philosophy and join the crowd.

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Why is analyzing Mechanics so confusing?

Because there is to much gray area between mechanics and style. Coach's teach what they know. Thats not always best for certain styles.

Sometimes pitching instruction (and to a degree hitting instruction) is trial and error and the pitching instructor is simply helping to guide the player through the trial and error process a bit more efficiently. I'm sure there are some pretty good instructors out there who won't give you any more detailed analysis than "It looks wrong, try this." There are other good ones who will break things down and give detailed instructions. The best ones are willing to teach whatever it takes to get good results. Ted Williams was documented as teaching kids to - gasp - swing down on the ball when it was the right thing for that player at that time.

Doctors and Psychologists "analyze" patients and often arrive at differing treatment recommendations.

Players "used" to watch other successful players for visual cues that might point the way to enhanced velocity, or more power. The advent of high-speed video analysis was thought to be "the tool" for us to see exactly what the successful players were doing. Ha Ha, jokes on us. I've seen countless examples of "Us" viewing the exact same short "hitting clip" and arriving at vastly differing conclusions.

So, you want to know why it's confusing? It's because we have Humans doing the analyzing!

GBM, interesting topic that should provide some constructive discussion, however I think some of your assumptions are off a little. Your questions are certainly valid however.

First I am not sure if “the really good and famous throwers never learned from a professional coach” I don’t have the data on this but I suspect many did and most now do. I agree great athletes can probably do anything without good coaching, however I am not sure if this statement is accurate.

Second, arm problems are on the rise, significantly in fact. Much of this is overuse at a young age, but some is also because athletes are pushing their bodies farther and farther than in the past.

Third, pitchers are in fact throwing harder as a group. Sure the elite handful all probably throw about the same speed, but there are many more guys throwing 90+ than there used to be 50 years ago. Conditioning and training methods are far superior now over what they were even 20 years ago. Athletes are bigger stronger faster and throw harder because of the better training.

Finally analyzing mechanics, while still complex, is not that difficult. The body of knowledge on pitching and pitching mechanics is huge and growing every day. High speed motion video, ball-tracking systems, and other technologies are allowing coaches and physicians to better understand pitching better than ever before. Now I agree with you that there are many who seem confused and stuck in their old ways. However, it is been my experience that the coaches that are staying current in their trade are pretty consistent on their basic “touch points” of pitching. Sure there are different ways to get to certain points in the delivery, but there is quite a bit of consistency in the basic key delivery points of the pitching motion as well as a pretty good understanding on how to throw a baseball properly.

The key for a pitcher, or the parent of a pitcher, is to take the time to find those who are current in their trade. This is where I have seen problems, which maybe got you started on this thread.

If I had to start over again on this journey there would be a few things I would look for in an instructor. I would start with a few easy questions:
1. How long ago did he pitch? Out of major league baseball for more than 4 years? OK then ask the next question.
2. What are you doing to stay current? What conferences do you go to and how often?
3. What affiliations does he have? NPA? Others?
4. Does he use high-speed video? (big red flag if he doesn’t for upper levels)
5. As important as the above questions are how well does he relate to his students. A knowledgeable guy who cannot teach is no good to anyone.

The problems of finding a knowledgeable coach can be difficult when you get outside of the larger cities or centers of baseball. The beauty of today is that the Internet has become a balancing factor. Information is so readily available that you can become knowledgeable enough on your own if you spend the time doing the research. An example of this is the article that CADad posted a few weeks ago by the Journal of Sports and Science. It is a marvelous article if you take the time to read it carefully. I just picked up two excellent resources from ASMI for $20. I am amazed at the information they provide for $10!

There will always be a few nut cases in any field, and pitching probably has their share, but if you talk to coaches who are current in their trade, really take the time to study and improve their knowledge, and stay current with the technology you will be surprised how consistent they are in their approach.

Now when it comes to hitting....well their all nuts!

Good post BOF. I particularly agree that there are a few "touch points" of pitching that most agree with. Another atribute that I think is important for a pitching coach to have is the ability to work with different pitching styles. When I say that, I believe (and I could be wrong) is that just about every pitcher has their own style, arm slot, leg lift, point where they start their hand break, etc... Part of this is because every person's body is put together a little differently. As long as a pitcher gets to these "touch points", he should be OK. A pitching coach who tries to make a kid pitch in a pre-determined mold is asking for trouble. I think a good pitching coach will work within the basics of what a kid has and come up with an individual game plan on how to reach those "touch points".

I have never really followed the big gurus. I think that is molding a kid too much. There are probably ideas from each of them that may apply to a particular pitcher, but not necessarily everything.

GBM, I think that is part of the reason there is so much confusion on the different theories and analysis out there. Not everyone fits into the same mold. Not everyone needs to do the same things to get better. Everyone is an individual. Each individual pitcher needs to work on something different to get to those "touch points". The way they get there is what makes them individual.

Hope this makes sense. I'm not a big expert. Just my opinion on how I see things.

I believe analyzing mechanics is extremely important. We might actually learn something by all that analysis. Force feeding mechanics can be an all together different issue. I think it's great that so many study this stuff. We will never run out of things to learn.

Those of us who are older surely remember many of things we were taught incorrectly. I even taught some of those things when I was younger. Luckily someone figured out a better way.

I remember force feeding. My father used to yell at me all the time to throw over the top. I don't know what I was doing, but obviously, I wasn't throwing over the top.

My son is a low 3/4 guy. When my father first came to see him pitch, he started with the throw over the top stuff with him. "You're going to hurt your arm throwing like that."

Analysis is a science and is good. How that analysis is applied to each individual is an art.

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Analysis is a science and is good. How that analysis is applied to each individual is an art.

VERY well stated!

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First I am not sure if “the really good and famous throwers never learned from a professional coach” I don’t have the data on this but I suspect many did and most now do. I agree great athletes can probably do anything without good coaching, however I am not sure if this statement is accurate.

I am assuming from what i have studied that a lot of the old pitchers like Bob Feller and Walter Johnson pretty much had their own self taught style. Walter Johnson, according to a lot of pitching philosophies today, should not even be able to throw like he did for 20+ years. I am not sure on all of the real data, perhaps they had pitching coaches, but it appears to me they developed their own styles short of any professional telling them what to do.

I agree with you though that pitchers today for the most part throw harder on average than those of yesteryear, I attribute most of that to the popularity of the sport coupled with the extreme competetiveness of the sport at the junior level. Travel ball certainly has contributed to building players to be so dominant at the college and pro level.

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Second, arm problems are on the rise, significantly in fact. Much of this is overuse at a young age, but some is also because athletes are pushing their bodies farther and farther than in the past.

I agree fully that arm problems are on the rise. I have watched several kids around my area burn up their arms in high school trying to win at all costs. Coaches are very guilty of teaching kids to throw even if it hurts, ya know- "lets just get this win then we'll rest you"! Parents can be equally as bad telling their son to "suck it up, we need the win".

I am in the camp of "kids don't throw enough". By this I don't mean they should pitch more. I actually believe in pitching less and training more- utilyzing planned and carefully watched throwing drills and bullpens on off days to better condition the arm. In games, both coaches and the players themselves get too caught up in the moment and allow pitching when fatigued. Better conditioning through more throwing could help alleviate this problem. It's always a warning sign to me when kids start getting warmed up and within 10 minutes of throwing their arms already hurt- and they are not even throwing real hard! This tells me they are not properly conditioned to throw- it's no wonder when they go in to pitch that they have really sore arms and fatigue way too soon.

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The problems of finding a knowledgeable coach can be difficult when you get outside of the larger cities or centers of baseball. The beauty of today is that the Internet has become a balancing factor. Information is so readily available that you can become knowledgeable enough on your own if you spend the time doing the research. An example of this is the article that CADad posted a few weeks ago by the Journal of Sports and Science. It is a marvelous article if you take the time to read it carefully. I just picked up two excellent resources from ASMI for $20. I am amazed at the information they provide for $10!

There will always be a few nut cases in any field, and pitching probably has their share, but if you talk to coaches who are current in their trade, really take the time to study and improve their knowledge, and stay current with the technology you will be surprised how consistent they are in their approach.

It's funny- I read that artical CADad posted and it took like two separate readings just to decipher it. Then I got out footage of son and watched each little thing they talked about in that article and felt quite relieved that it appears that at least what they say in their terms is what I have always thought and taught in my terms and that son is or may be doing things right mechanically speaking.

Maybe all we really need is more good interpreters between the jocks and the doctors! ASMI has done a wonderful and thourough job in their analyzing. They don't seem to have many pet theories- just watching footage of what the best already do and translate that into possible theories. Plus, I like their angle of coupling research to find better velocity with research also leading to better arm care. I have read all of their free stuff.

I guess my main problem I see is that there is the angle of one "naturally" being able to pitch all on their own without much professional help teaching them and that sometimes ill-informed coaches or instructors do more harm than good because they do not understand the correct fundamentals to mechanics. I have been studying it for 5 years now and still am pretty clueless on what is proper and what is not. The things I do know are so simple and fundamental that most coaches just overlook it thinking it should be more complex. perhaps they just want to be "know-it-alls" and not really discipline themselves into correctly knowing what is good and what isn't. I will say this- I can count all of the good pitching instructors I have run into on one hand and still have fingers left!

Because there is not one way. What works great for one kid may not work at all for another. Every kid is different. Every player has his own unique throwing motion. Yes many look the same. But there are others who look different. There is not one way to teach pitching mechanics to every kid. There are some things that are absolutes in pitching just like in hitting. But to say "This is the way a kid should pitch" and then forcing that way on every kid will never work for every kid. Because they are different.

So when someone says "This is the way it should be done" they might be right for some kids and be totally wrong for others. The best pitching coaches I know can take a kid and assist him in maximizing his ability. And they can take another kid can not scre* him up by trying to clone him into what they believe everyone should be.

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Why is analyzing Mechanics so confusing?

This is the easiest question to answer ever asked on this board!

The reason is obvious: It's because pitching is not a science, not a skill, and not a talent.

It's a BLACK ART!

Ok, is this too simple for some of you in teaching IF's and OF's how to throw? We teach an IF should throw using a half circle and an OF should use a full circle. We teach elbows should be on a line with the shoulder and to finish up on the other side of your opposite leg to make sure you follow through and don't use only arm (especially for OF's). We have players hold the ball 11:00, 1:00, 6:00 (four seam fastball). Do any of you add a lot more than this? Also, how often do you have a kid who has messed up mechanics, but you leave him alone, because that is what works best for him considering his muscle memory is almost frozen?

Mr. Nicholas25 et al,

We are in the process of an overhaul ourselves.

Seperating the throwing mechanics of a player who plays 3b/SS and pitches can be hard sometimes. Noticed this glaring difference after a PG Showcase showcase last year. Thanks to video and constructive criticism from PG and pitching instructors we found out that RR23Jr developed this short stiff arm action and very quick delivery in the mound probably from playing the hot corner where you need to get rid of the ball quickly most of the time. This action have probably decreased his velocity as well. Of course , arm action is just one of the factors that affect velocity besides lower body strength, a longer stride and keeping it close (delayed hip rotation) amongst other things.

Re-training his throwing mechanics is still a process and I am seeing some improvement by continuing to analyze video which gives instant feedback. Just have to be patient. Good thing is that he is just a Sophomore.

When he made varsity last year, He was primarily a relief pitcher and occasionally started (2games). He has been a successful starting pitcher/infielder at the lower levels ie LL,PONY. Surprisingly, after 1 year in varsity and knowing some of the Asst.coaches, they told me recently that they thought that RR23Jr was primarily just a pitcher and did not realize that he could do other things relatively well hence more chances with AB/IF during the Summer and Fall after his Freshman year. In a way it's good but the pitching part suffered a bit from less repetition.

This year, he has been playing mostly 3b and pitched sparingly which has probably affected his performance on the mound. It's funny sometimes that you can't have both worlds at the same time. Sometimes you're great in hitting/fielding and your pitching suffers and vice versa.

I believe that his primary position if he goes to the next level is an infielder ( corners right now). However, there is one intangible that I have to support him no matter what...He has the heart to pitch.

RR23

I think pitchers get over analyzed and ultimatley get mind f'ed. I'm not a big believer in making "cookie cutter" pitchers. I think similar results can be achieved in different ways. A pitcher is an athlete and athletes need to find their own natural way of doing things. Mechanics need to stay simple and not tweaked too often so that a pitcher limits his thinking and stays consistent. Repeating a delivery and getting to a consistent release point over and over and over is the most important thing.

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Originally posted by ShepFPC28:
Repeating a delivery and getting to a consistent release point over and over and over is the most important thing.

Until you get to the end and wonder why your velocity is not quite enough.

Otherwise, I agree with you.