Will the real handle torque please stand up?

deemax,

That is the question i was trying to get at with little success. My interpretation of the handle torque is ACTIVE torqueing of the handle by the hands. I personnaly think that this has its own potential pitfalls.

I know that some don't like the term box so call it a triangle or whatever, if you take your initial positioning of your hands, arms and shoulders as you get to launch position and then lock it in and rotate it. Keeping all the parts in the same relative position Does that not get you into the lag position with the barrel sweeping back toward the cather.

I'm not talking about rotating like a top with a straight vertical axis, but rather a slight tilt and rotate on a diagonal plane. Lifting the front elbow and lowering the rear until while also rotating toward the pitcher.

I'm probably not explaining this well but I think you'll know what i mean. Does it make sense and is it not a similar result?

BTW, I never conversed with your dad, but I think I read every post of his i could find and had a great respect for him. I do believe that the tip and rip running start is an important part of most high level swings.

quote:

If the hands have a running start, and the barrel of the bat gets tipped during this process (similar to this position below) just before the hitters commitment to swing,....

then, do the hands have any choice but to torque/send barrel rearward? Is it possible that handle torque/rearward barrel is a result of something else, and not the cause in its self.

BINGO! I think you are right on in this statement. I feel that when the rear elbow is lowered and the hands are placed in a palm-up/ palm-down position the bat tilts naturally. I would like to see footage of a hitter standing with the bat tilted toward the pitcher while the back elbow is down and then see it tilt back back by supinating the top hand. I just don't really see that yet. I think that the placement of the hands is definitely what causes the bat to tilt, but I do not believe that by supinating the top hand and pronating the bottom you can get there without really messing yourself up. Is there a way to not tilt the bat back while being in the palm-up/palm-down position? Or is the bat tipping toward the pitcher to help keep the hands loaded wrists cocked for the explosive part of the swing?

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:

quote:

If the hands have a running start, and the barrel of the bat gets tipped during this process (similar to this position below) just before the hitters commitment to swing,....

then, do the hands have any choice but to torque/send barrel rearward? Is it possible that handle torque/rearward barrel is a result of something else, and not the cause in its self.

BINGO! I think you are right on in this statement. I feel that when the rear elbow is lowered and the hands are placed in a palm-up/ palm-down position the bat tilts naturally. I would like to see footage of a hitter standing with the bat tilted toward the pitcher while the back elbow is down and then see it tilt back back by supinating the top hand. I just don't really see that yet. I think that the placement of the hands is definitely what causes the bat to tilt, but I do not believe that by supinating the top hand and pronating the bottom you can get there without really messing yourself up. Is there a way to not tilt the bat back while being in the palm-up/palm-down position? Or is the bat tipping toward the pitcher to help keep the hands loaded wrists cocked for the explosive part of the swing?

do you personally **** the wrists or lift the elbow keeping the wrists locked? or a lil of both?

Kent maintains a low elbow, Howard has a very high elbow, yet the barrel path is quite similar.


How do we create the arcing barrel path that we see? Richard uses terms like snap the pole, or turn the vault door. Donny Buster has referenced that the bones from elbow to wrist ensure that you can have extra movement (supinate/pronate) that is not tied 100% to shoulder or trunk movement.

Apparently Slaught/Candrea have some drills that don't use the same terminology but are functionally equivalent.

From an experimental standpoint, I cannot create the barrel path without assistance of the forearms turning the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:
Kent maintains a low elbow, Howard has a very high elbow, yet the barrel path is quite similar.


How do we create the arcing barrel path that we see? Richard uses terms like snap the pole, or turn the vault door. Donny Buster has referenced that the bones from elbow to wrist ensure that you can have extra movement (supinate/pronate) that is not tied 100% to shoulder or trunk movement.

Apparently Slaught/Candrea have some drills that don't use the same terminology but are functionally equivalent.

From an experimental standpoint, I cannot create the barrel path without assistance of the forearms turning the barrel.

Donny Buster has referenced that the bones from elbow to wrist ensure that you can have extra movement (supinate/pronate) that is not tied 100% to shoulder or trunk movement.


so donny advocated a wrist coc independently from the rear elbow comming up?????

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:
so donny advocated a wrist coc independently from the rear elbow comming up?????

No I am simply trying to point out that the hands are not slave to the shoulders. Perhaps it wasn't worded well, but that's not my strong suit. I am not advocating up or down elbow with the two clips, but I am saying we see the same type of barrel path. The point being maybe slotting the rear elbow and raising the front elbow is not the cause of early batspeed. Maybe they are the effect of the pronating/supinating.

Good clips Wogdoggy. Personally what I see is that the elbow slot of Kent makes the bat not point to the pitcher but rather back over the shoulder. The elbow comes in tight on the swing and the hands are in a palm-up palm-down position. The wrists keep the barrel high and stay cocked until they release through the contact zone. I think this cocked position and the back elbow down creates a good bat path. Take a 32 oz. bat and supinate/pronate your hands and you will have a hard time keeping the barrel up and loaded. Also, watching Kent's bottom hand as best I can at this speed, I do not see it pronate as much as I see the back elbow come in and the hands move in relation to them. Is the idea the the elbow moves and then the hands or the hands and then the elbow or both together? I would feel that if the hands pronate, supinate that the barrel would not stay high and loaded for the long time that the best hitters keep it.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Good clips Wogdoggy. Personally what I see is that the elbow slot of Kent makes the bat not point to the pitcher but rather back over the shoulder. The elbow comes in tight on the swing and the hands are in a palm-up palm-down position. The wrists keep the barrel high and stay cocked until they release through the contact zone. I think this cocked position and the back elbow down creates a good bat path. Take a 32 oz. bat and supinate/pronate your hands and you will have a hard time keeping the barrel up and loaded. Also, watching Kent's bottom hand as best I can at this speed, I do not see it pronate as much as I see the back elbow come in and the hands move in relation to them. Is the idea the the elbow moves and then the hands or the hands and then the elbow or both together? I would feel that if the hands pronate, supinate that the barrel would not stay high and loaded for the long time that the best hitters keep it.

One thing I recommend is to try yo copy that barrel path. Find out if repositioning the elbows like you see Kent doing, and turning the shoulders will make the barrel look like that.

Also, there is one thing that is important to point out. Flattening the barrel, turning the barrel, torquing the barrel whatever you want to call it that is the swing. You don't pronate/supinate until flat and drag forward pulling the bat through. The turning of the barrel is the swing.

Lastly I have two back views one of Kent with a low back elbow, and one of David Wright with the elbow high. These clips aren't synced or anything, but I am staring at the similarity of the barrel path despite the elbows being in much different locations. Their elbows look remarkably similar at lag.


Also here is a look at the same wright hit from the front angle.

quote:

You don't pronate/supinate until flat and drag forward pulling the bat through.

This part confuses me. If the bat is flat before the hitter pronates, then how could pronating pull the barrel rear-ward. If the bat is already flat would you want to pronate and take the barrel well below the swing plane? I may be mis-understanding this a little.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:

quote:

You don't pronate/supinate until flat and drag forward pulling the bat through.

This part confuses me. If the bat is flat before the hitter pronates, then how could pronating pull the barrel rear-ward. If the bat is already flat would you want to pronate and take the barrel well below the swing plane? I may be mis-understanding this a little.

Let's take the top hand and think of it without having a bat. Form a V if you will with the palm on the rear pect, a stretched front scap and the thumb up in the air. In other words the palm is sort of facing your shoulder/armpit area while the thumb is up. Take a basic stride, rotate the hips into footplant, feel the lead elbow rise and rotate the palm flat into the zone. It's like taking a Karate Chop. In the zone your hand is now palm down. You've pronated. Now if your thumb were the barrel, it would have to travel further to contact which is the early bat speed.

Swingbuster also advocated a grip that would give your hands (wrists) some degrees of freedom. The top wrist is bent back from the knuckles toward the forearm.

You can see it Pujols here.

O.K. I think I understand what you are talking about. I think many are confused that people are stating that you should actively pronate your hands. What your are talking about is similar to internal rotation. You are bringing the front elbow up and the palm is now in the palm down position. This is not pronation. Pronating the hand would be to rotate the top hand thumb toward the catcher by turning your wrist. Actively turning your thumbs toward your body would be pronating. This maybe where some were getting confused. I doubt there are many that would disagree with the fact that the palm should be up and that the back elbow will be down while the front elbow is up and that the wrists will stay cocked as long as possible (knuckles toward the forearm-I liked that one.) What I think some are advocating is to actively rotate the wrists (pronate/supinate) to force the barrel back; this is a misinterpretation of what is really happening in my opinion.

I am not sure we are on the same page. When my thumb is pointing to the sky my forearm is supinated. Conversely my top hand is somewhat pronated in the setup.

Here is Buster's kid doing a top hand drill with a pronated top hand. Swingbuster was adamant that this handset prevented the hands from coming forward to soon which allowed separation. You have a vertical start, lead shoulder lowered, hip coiled, barrel floats backward, hips open, separation created. This is the barrel path we are talking about. If pronation/supination is confusing stick to the visual.

At what point is the top hand pronated in this drill?

quote:

Originally posted by SoutherNo1:
At what point is the top hand pronated in this drill?

At the max tip point is about as pronated as it gets. Again this is not perfectly described, but if your hand is in that position you get a feel for the barrel action that has to place to get it into the zone.

I always liked Donnie's descriptions, but i don't see much separation in the one hand drill above. Maybe it doesn't occur as much in a drill?

quote:

Originally posted by SoutherNo1:
I always liked Donnie's descriptions, but i don't see much separation in the one hand drill above. Maybe it doesn't occur as much in a drill?

Agreed. Ideally any separation "no matter how quick or minute" would be happening at the same time that barrel takes it's initial rearward arc.

quote:

I always liked Donnie's descriptions, but i don't see much separation in the one hand drill above. Maybe it doesn't occur as much in a drill?

Donnie, Tom and Swingbuilder were right for years......They told us, it's the hips and hands.....

There is alot of separation in the clip above.....You gotta look for it, but it's there, bigtime......

Blue dog,

Could you please explain further your statement that there is "alot of seperation in the clip above".

Thanks

If the back hip coils and the front foot hits the ground open, and it's happening by the time that the barrel takes it's initial rearward arc (as Pronk says) then, you got yourself some pretty good separation...........

When the front foot hits the ground, the belt buckle is disappearing.........

That's the way Donnie laid it out and that's the way Donnie's son is doing it in the clip.....

The same thing is happening here....

The hips stretch against each other.....The back hip coils, and stays coiled, as the front hip opens during the stride..........

The hands load against this lower body stretch.....

There is no separation without this stretch........

Loose Cannon posted this clip in another thread......

Hands are loading against the opening of the front hip.....Frames 2 and 3 really shows it....

I don't see it as much in the clip of Donnie's boy. Pujols, however looks like a rubber band.

bump.

Torque talk. again.