Windup vs. Stretch

quote:

Originally posted by boom:
A question was presented to me and I had no answer.

The question was what is the benefit of throwing in the wind up instead of the stretch. The speed does not change nor the movement. What does change is his rhythm. And he is less accurate.

I think the reason he is not as accurate is because all of his pins are in the wind up.

If 75%+ of the game is in the stretch why not just ditch the wind up all together and only pitch from the stretch. That way you will always be comfortable.

I personally had no problem with either one I just pitch from the wind up because that is what everyone else did.

Thoughts?

Well, for starters, there are many pitchers who’s mechanics, velocities, and movements aren’t as good in the stretch, and there are many who’s are better. Point being, one size just doesn’t fit all.

What’s funny to me is, every time this subject comes up, I keep looking for someone besides myself who has done any kind of research into pitching with and without runners on, and I haven’t seen any yet. I think that’s part of the reason this subject isn’t discussed more. FI, you say 75% of the game is done in the stretch, implying there are runners on, but where did you get that number?

Do you have any numbers on yourself both with and without runners on, or from the stretch and not? If you’d like to see some, go to http://www.infosports.com/scor...ages/pitching12a.pdf and do a find on “runners” and “Stretch”. Those are the numbers for our HS team this season. You should be able to see a whole lot of different ways to look at it. And if you’re really interested and want to see more, http://www.infosports.com/scor...images/cpitching.pdf will show many of the same metrics since 2007 for our team.

I am in total agreement. The 75% was my estimate.

I personally thing the reason why the pitchers mechanics get so screwed up is because they do not practice it enough in the bull pins. Every drill and every pin I can think of is based out of the wind up. So naturally they are better at it.

Our season is almost over so I am going to put more focus on it next year and see what happens.

Found this article.

The problem is the windup is almost sacred to the game of baseball but it really has no purpose besides a kind of confidence builder on the mental state of the pitcher. The windup represents the old style of pitching from back in the day when the pitchers would use the windup to get their arms moving faster like in the video clip here of Dizzy Dean. Now that we have learned that doing this is destructive to pitching velocity, the windup has become just an extra step to throwing in the stretch.
The Benefits of the Windup

You potentially have more time and an extra step to build more momentum through your stride.
You have more time once you start your delivery to focus on the target.
It is a more intimidating position to face the batter which will give the pitcher more confidence.

The Benefits of the Stretch

You will throw your most important pitches here.
You have a more simple delivery mechanically.
You can get a good foot position on the rubber.

I believe that the deciding factor of a pitcher who would either like to use the stretch or the windup without runners on base is the foot position issue. You can get your foot in a more comfortable and athletic position when in the stretch. This would really benefit pitchers who are playing on bad fields. You know that mound that has a crater in front of the rubber that annoys the hell out of you! Here is a velocity quick tip that covers how to effectively position your foot on the rubber.

Pitchers that prefer the windup over the stretch, when acceptable, usually say the reason is because they feel more comfortable in the windup. If this is the case for you or your pitchers then this is fine. The only problem is if there is a significant difference between the pitchers delivery when in the windup as opposed to the stretch. There should be no difference once the lift leg hip begins towards the target. Notice the video of John Smoltz below. His two deliveries are seamless between his windup and stretch.

I recommend pitching in the stretch more often because you will throw your most important pitches there. If you are more comfortable in the windup then this is usually because you throw more practice pitches in the windup. If this is the case, then I recommend throwing your bullpens in the stretch the majority of the time. This will also help you when you have runners on base. When runners are on base you must do your best to help your catcher to hold the runners on by being as quick as possible during your delivery. This means you may need to slide step. The problem is if you are a pitcher who likes to throw in the windup with a big leg lift, when in the stretch and slide stepping, you lose velocity. The key to not losing velocity in the slide step is focusing on the “Load” position. This position is when your hips are driving towards the target and you are squatting hard on your back leg while your hips are moving forward. If you work hard to build momentum in the “Load” position, you can build as much momentum as you do with a high leg lift. Read my article on “Lift for Show, Load for Doe” to understand more about the “Load.”

throwing from the stretchI also recommend, when in the stretch, to start with your head and hips just inside your drive foot. Have your feet almost shoulder width apart and your lift leg hip ready to fire to the target. This will help you get your lower half moving even faster to the target which will allow you to build maximum momentum along with optimal speed to hold base runners on.

It is important to remember that whatever you do to your delivery in the windup or stretch they must match each other once the hips begin moving towards the plate. If this does not occur then it will be very hard to stay consistent mechanically through the entire game. This will have a big effect on your balls to strikes ratio.

"Did you ever think" that the wind up "loosens" the shoulder muscles
and maybe prevent stiff shoulders.

This has been stated by pro scouts and former ML pitchers.

Watch the old clips of Don Drysdale, Nolan Ryan and others.

Bob

There is a fairly recent "stories of the minor leagues" book out, I think it is Odd Man Out by Matt McIntosh, wherein he receives coaching at one point that, gee, we never used to see all these arm injuries in the old days, and maybe, just maybe, it was because the old-style windup with arms stretched way up over the head. It could have been Hayhurt's first book (bullpen gospels?).

When I read it, I thought to myself: good god, I hear all this talk about one advantage of going pro that you get access to better coaching, and this is it? Really?

That's interesting about bullpens. I always have my pitchers start their throwing sessions out of the stretch. Depending on what level you are at will usually give you an idea of how many pitches are thrown out of the stretch or wind up.

I think with good mechanics you can build more momentum out of the wind up. At leg lift and the first move towards homeplate.

quote:

Originally posted by dctc11:
That's interesting about bullpens. I always have my pitchers start their throwing sessions out of the stretch. Depending on what level you are at will usually give you an idea of how many pitches are thrown out of the stretch or wind up. …

That’s an interesting theory. I know MLB has data on it, but who besides the pros tracks pitches with runners on? I know I’ve done it for a long time, but more than 10,000 at bats is really a pretty meager number when compared to the millions of at bats in HS over that same period.

There are several different moves a pitcher can have from the stretch depending on the situation and where runners are on the bases. I know my own son throws hardest from the stretch with a runner on second or third base. His slowest velocity from the stretch is when the runner is on first only.

I usually teach both ways to kids in Little League. This way when they get to high school they dont have to learn something else that the coach is looking for just polishing what they already have. I usually dont get a whole lot of pitchers though, mostly good throwers. I do notice that a lot of coaches/managers will have a kid pitch from the wind up when bases are loaded. To me that makes for more opportunity to bunt/squeeze. Right?

I also think that the velocity with a runner on 1st should be higher rather than slower this way the catcher doesn't have to make a bad throw to 2nd. Just my own opinions though.

With a runner on first velocity may be compromised due to an accelerated slide step rather than a larger coil up of the body. From the set position the ball may be of slowe velocity in flight but it arrives quicker from that set position to the catcher.