Winning vs. Development

IMO winning and development go hand in hand.  

Can only speak to the Youth piece ( with a 10 &13). I do see some of the trophy hunting mentality. I also see development teams as well. The good programs have a healthy balance of wins with development and coaches that "get it." Don't forget the parents responsibility here! In some cases, they are the ones driving the win mentality. We as parents have a responsibility to keep it real and teach our boys whats really important.

Just my $.02.

Ideally that should be the case PG, but with these teams carrying 20+ man rosters and the coaches trying to keep everyone happy (and the overhead $ coming in) its tough to develop when you are basically playing only half a game. Would love to find the scenario where a solid team had a 14-15 man roster with 2-3 of them as PO's so the position players could see at least 4 AB's a game, but every team we know of has 17-22 kids in the dugout every game, including the high school teams. Hopefully as we move deeper into spring we will see the starting players go deep into games, as those scores are the ones that count & allow coaches - at least in high school - to keep their jobs. Right now basically everyone is playing 3-4 innings and sitting 3-4 innings. We had a high school game a few weeks ago where the team hit everyone all the way through the roster. My son led off and he was one of the only players to get two AB's as the other team mowed down our #6-#21 hitters 1-2-3 from the 2nd through the 6th. Tough to win OR develop playing that way.  

 

20+ kids in the dugout x hundreds of teams and people keep saying baseball is dying! 

I think things have changed regarding HS sports.  HS sports are stretched thin.  They don't have the resources.  Most coaches are teachers first (nothing wrong with that).  They may coach several different sports.  Many are not necessarily selected on their coaching ability, especially at the assistant and lower levels.  HS practice time is limited by season rules. 

 

On the flip side, many "travel" coaches can offer a lot more in terms of expertise & experience (yes some suck as well).  They can practice out of HS season without restriction.  There are resources for all types of training.  They can get paid more than the average HS coaching stipend. 

 

So what happens.  The kids get exposed to "professional" youth sports on their travel teams.  Then they get to HS where Mr. Blank is the coach.  After about two practices, they realize that Mr. Blank, while a good guy, doesn't know has much as their "travel" coach.  When the kids say, "coach" what if we do this.  The answer is "I am the coach, shut up and run."  These days, you can't fool the kids.  They know too much.  So they don't participate. 

 

I am experiencing it on my kid's basketball team.  Nice enough guys, but they are in over their head.  The schemes they run don't give the kids a chance.  As the losses mount, discouragement set its.  You can see it on their faces.  That's my experience.  You're mileage may vary. 

I don't get  your point.  You say "we have created an epidemic of kids who are just worried about themselves"  -- but the  example you cite of HS kids getting playing time they do not deserve has nothing to do with them or their supposed selfishness. It's horrible, incompetent, amateurish, really bad coaching, probably accompanied by  some industrial-grade parental tampering.

 

To me it's pretty simple. Assuming academically eligible, healthy players, a HS varsity coach in any sport plays the best players on his roster in order to win.  Anything else is incompetence, malfeasance or stupidity.  The only exception would be for a poor team, in which case a coach may sub in his younger players earlier than he would otherwise in order to get them ready to win the following year. (note that levels below varsity are different)

 

As for travel, showcase, etc. Sure, I see nothing wrong with a coach valuing "development over trophies".  Does that mean spreading the innings around some and pitching #3 instead of #1 in the 'ship?  I have no problem with that at all. As long as the players are giving 100% on and off the field, the kid you quote is right: it's all good.

What are they going to do if they ever get the chance to play in college and don't get their way? Play club?

Sums it up perfectly Golfman25. 

19coach - I am completely fascinated by what will happen with these kids. Same kids who move from travel team to travel team because its always someone else's fault. These kids are good ballplayers, but also the personification of entitlement and "me first" that is taking over the game. They would NEVER play Club baseball in college, that would be for the love of the game, and unfortunately the "love" these kids had for baseball was drummed out of them in about 6th grade when they left Little League and became "pros".

 

Now that they have entered high school they aren't the biggest or strongest or the #1 man anymore, its a big adjustment that not all of them are equipped to handle. 50+ kids trying out for 20 freshman spots, and thats after the first cut down after freshman summer camp. As most folks on this board know, mix in all of the above and the typical H.S. politics and $ issues and its like living in a daily soap opera. What IS nice is that in todays game you have options. In the 80's if H.S. baseball didn't work out for you, you were pretty much done - at least where I grew up. 

 

Great to have this website to gather information and have a sounding board. Fantastic resource! 

Another factor that high school coaches are fighting is the difference in high school and the select lifestyle.  Not much fun to ride a yellow school bus to a crappy field to play a high school game.  It's more fun to ride in a plane, cost mom and dad a few 1000 dollars and play at the pool between games.  Most big time showcase tournaments are in college fields that are really nice.  It's a losing battle to try and keep kids interested. 

I was lucky with my oldest and his select/showcase career.  The kids stayed together for the most part for three years.  Pitchers never were over-used and because of the depth of talent they won lots of games.  I would say development was important for this particular organization but being able to put the championship type accolades on the website was important for recruiting.  We played other organizations where this definitely wasn't the case. 

In High School you play to get chicks. 

Very well said it's unfortunate that true love for the game can get sucked out of a kid so quickly due to others. I've only been coaching for about 5 years at the high school level upon completing my college career and also do camps through the high school program and at facilities with kids age 9 and up. So I am still pretty fresh in the coaching regard compared to many others. I have seen way too much of this since I began my coaching career. 

After reading this, I feel pretty lucky that we've never ran into this kind of stuff... 

 

Unless you go to an all boys school

I can see the majority of what the OP said. However I have always disagreed with that last line. I would say with the exception of youth ball and maybe HS when has baseball ever been played not for individual stats. Maybe way back at the turn of last century. As long as the guy hitting 350 was getting paid more than the guy hitting 200 it's been about a players individual performance. The problem is when the idividual performance is the he only important thing. For example the guy that won't lay down a bunt when needed.

Maybe I'm just cynical about it. There is an old coach I know that used to say the only people playing a team sport are the fans. You had better do your job or you won't be playing for the team for very long. I have always agreed with that. Of coarse I've always despised losing so I never had a problem with putting the team winning first.

I think a step is missing in this equation. It isn't just winning vs. development. The other component to this , in the context of HS and Travel ball , is competitiveness. Forget the rings and trophies. Yes , they are nice. But the goal of winning comes by being competitive. Both as a player and as a team. Development leads to being competitive on the field whether you win or lose. And the more competitive a player/team is winning will follow. If a team is not becoming more competitive as a season progresses, whether HS or Travel, then I would think that a problem exists. As far as selfishness goes, that is just a human condition that has existed in ancient times and still is prevalent with us.It can rear its head in many forms. It just doesn't sit well with most people if a player is ok with losing as long as he gets his.

Scotty83 - re: the last line & individual stats, would you want to coach a team of players who had the "hey, I went 2 for 4 don't blame me" attitude after a loss? If you go 0 for 2 with guys on base early in a tie game, and then get two hits with nobody on late in that same game losing by 7 runs is that 2 for 4 really a "good game"? We had a kid a few weeks back who hits a double, blows through a stop sign and gets gunned at third by ten feet - and with NOBODY OUT to boot. He was the tying run in the 6th inning of a game we lost by one. When the coach asked him what the hell he was doing, his reply was "at least I hit a double". If I'm coaching that kid he's benched until 2018 - he was all about the stat sheet and not thinking about the actual situation / game. Thats what I mean by "playing the game for a reason other than your own stats". 

 

In watching a ton of baseball at all levels you definitely realize that not all batting averages are created equal (or OBP or Slugging or OPS or ERA or...) even if they read a certain way on a stat sheet. 

This headline is timely. Speaking only about the HS aspect here: I just got home from the season kickoff all-parent meeting, where the HS varsity head coach told parents, "Our No. 1 goal is winning."

 

He then pointed to his JV and freshman coaches and said, "And that's what I expect of them, too. I know a lot of people think JV games are for development. I believe practice is where players develop. So if the same nine who start a game are in at the end, it's because we're playing to win."

 

He went on to talk about "Winning the right way," which is true and important.

 

I read so many posts from parents on this site complaining about how money and politics drive coaching decisions, and each time I do, I don't know whether it's true or sour grapes. What I DO know ...

 

... is I'm darned glad I live in Texas.

And btw, GoldenS - that young man who obviously ran through a hold sign to leg out a triple would pay big-time here.

jp24 - I am only half joking when I say I'm tempted to transfer my 2018 to your neck of the woods before spring ball starts in a few weeks. All 19 freshmen in our program are playing Frosh ball, despite 5-6 of these kids being head & shoulders above current sophomores & juniors they play rec / travel with. The program is carrying 23 kids on varsity (!) with ZERO freshmen or sophomores - wouldn't believe it if we weren't living it. It's all about keeping as many check writing parents in the program for all four years. Varsity played .250 ball last year, and by most all accounts is worse this year. Blow through a stop sign? So what - let's just try not to do that again, and please donate to the booster club on your way off the field. 

 

My 2018 will gear up and do his best, and he will enjoy playing in high school with kids he has known since tee ball, regardless of the team record. We've reconciled the fact that there is no point in stressing over this right now - high school will be rec type ball, and travel is where he'll develop & ideally be playing on a competitive team that chooses to play the guys that give the team the best chance to compete. Should be a very interesting yin / yang for us this spring & summer. 

+1!  My son is starting his 3rd year as a college student-athlete and trust me when I tell you if you are not a "team player" you won't be playing college level ball for long.  The only stat that really counts at the end of the day is on the scoreboard. 

So what if you went 2-4 for the day.  If the team lost, it doesn't mean squat.  There were plenty of games where his HS and college team out hit the opponent and still lost.  One time the HS ace pitcher pitched a no-hitter and they lost 1-0. Yet they had 7-8 hits vs 0 hits for the other team.  Never got the timely hit.  There were some games my son went 0-2, BB, HPB, run scored in a win vs 2-4 in a loss.  Ask him which meant more - going 2-4 in a loss or 0-2 in a win.

 

Some of the "travel" players described in the OP are "me" players.  They won't last in college, if they are fortunate to play at that level.

Perception is not always reality with HS programs. Son is a 2017 & I was very anxious in the couple of years leading up to last year. Heard horror stories about pay for play & favoritism. Turns out its pretty much sour grapes from parents who thought their kids were passed over, not reality based on what's happened. Most all Freshman play Freshman ball & Sophomores play JV. Have plenty of Jr's & Sr's for varsity. Based on neeeds or exceptional talent a kid sometimes plays up. Don't see as a problem, playing time at appropriate level based on ability is the most important thing for development (IMO). No kids playing time has been diminished or increased based on parents fundraising. Just see how it goes this year if its first year of high school ball. Preconceived notions are often wrong.

BINGO!!!!  You get the prize.  

 

However, you will never convince some people of this.  No matter how hard you try.

I think we need to keep a couple things in mind here.  First baseball is an individual team sport.  When you are on the mound or at the plate nobody can help you.  It is all on you.  There is a team aspect to defense but still if a ball is hit to short it is the shortstop who is on the line.  So I don't think looking at your individual performance is a bad thing.  I think we just don't like people verbalizing it.  And at least for youth and high school lets face it your kids continued development towards his goals is what is most important. Second when it comes to development the player really needs to take a lot of this on himself.  I do not know how it is in other states but here we have them for 2 months.  The WIAA has legislated high school coaches out of being true instructors.  It's almost like intramurals or just having the players on loan from their travel teams.  We do our best to give excellent instruction in the short time that we have but ultimately two months just doesn't get it done.  If a kid wants to be great they need to take charge of their own development and stop playing the blame game as to why they have not developed.   I agree with one of the coaches comments that games are not for development.   Games are for putting your very best out there to WIN!

"Winning isn't everything but making the effort to win is"
- Gordie Gillespie

So true.  My son is also in his 3rd year of college ball.  Three quick stories.  

 

We had a kid that was a relief pitcher.  Got some good innings middle to end of the season and did pretty well overall.  At the end of the season, he got cut.  He was the only player on the team to get cut.  I was a little shocked and said something to my son as well as a couple other players on the team.  To a man, their response was "He wasn't a good teammate".  He was a kid that wanted to be a two way guy and was always complaining that he was better than so and so.  Just not a team guy.

 

Same thing happened after my son's freshman year.  Freshman player who wanted to be a two way guy.  He was a good pitcher and started some games as a freshman.  I thought he had a very good shot at being a regular starter his sophomore year.  He had his exit meeting with the coach and coach told him he would be a PO, that's where the team needed him.  The kid tried to argue with the coach about wanting playing time in the field as well.  Eventually the coach got tired of the back talk and told him right then and there to pack his stuff, he was cut.  Not being a team guy.

 

Lastly, my son pitched in the regionals last year.  It was his first start of the year.  He pitched very well.  Went into the 8th inning with a shutout.  In the 8th, we were up 2-0.  He gave up a run and left with a runner on 1st.  The closer came in, allowed the runner on 1st to score and gave up 2 more runs that inning.  By innings end, we were down 4-2.  I know my son would not have cared AT ALL how he did if the team lost.  He would have been miserable.  We wound up coming back and winning the game 6-5 in 10 innings and he was just as happy as he would have been if he got the win.  To him, it's all about the team and how they do and whether they win or lose.  That's the kind of attitude to have.

 

It's all about the team. Individual performance matters, but not if the team doesn't win.

       
       

Yeah I would love to have a team full of players that went 2-4. I wouldn't have to worry as much about a loss. The example of a player running through the sign is more of an example of a kid disobeying his coach more than anything. I'm not talking about a kid not wanting to win or not trying to win. But if I have the choice of being on a 500 team and being a stud or being on an undefeated team and sucking I would pick being a good player and I don't know any athlete that wouldn't. I know fans that would.

For the you won't play college ball statement. Let me ask this question. A team goes on a 20 game win streak. A player on that team goes 0 for 80 with 60 errors. Is he still on that team? Teams are made up of individual performances. Without those there is no team. I just think we get a little ra ra at times. The only true team sport would be youth sports with equal playing time. If any player on the team gets more PT based on his individual performance how can that individual performance be unimportant.

He's a story my kid was told about a game that happened the year before he started HS.  The coach is a solid guy who teaches leadership, teamwork, responsibility, and all the other good stuff you want a coach to teach your kids. But when the game starts he plays 100% to win, and you do not want to be around him when his team loses.

 

Varsity and JV took a bus to an away game at a school 1.5 hours away.  This school is never at the top of league, but its players are tough and chippy, and they have a knack for winning at home in all major sports. Nobody likes to go there. Varsity plays sloppy and loses a close game.  JV has a big rally and comes from behind to win their game in the final inning.  Varsity gets on the bus to find JV players enjoying a raucous celebration.  Coach tells JV  to pipe down, informs JV that they didn't actually win, they lost because the program lost, and everybody rides home in silence.

Let me ask it this way. You or your son is entering his senior year. He's is hands down going to be the number one draft pick as a pitcher. His HS coach plans on pitching him 3 complete games per week because it gives the team the best chance at winning. Do you let your kid play? Do you let him pitch 3 games a week?  Yes this is an extreme example. The point is there is a line between team and individual. Where we draw that line depends on how we are involed. For a fan the line is all the way over on the team side. For someone who could make or lose millions it's much farther to the individual side. Everyone else lies some where inbetween.  IMO the problem is when the line is placed inappropriately for the situation but unless I live someone else's life I can't presume to declare where they should put that line. Either way it's not as cut and dry as the team or the individual always comes first.

Originally Posted by bballman:…

It's all about the team. Individual performance matters, but not if the team doesn't win.

 

As with all things, it’s all in the perspective. Right now the perspective for discussion is a winning one. Let’s change that perspective and look at it from a losing one. Granted, the performance of the player that went 2-4 when the team lost doesn’t have a lot of impact. But what about the player who K’d 3 times or walked 5 batters in that loss? Doesn’t it make sense to look at reasons for the loss in an effort to mitigate them for the next game?

 

I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never scored for a HS team that wasn’t a winner and in the postseason tournament, so looking at things from a loser’s perspective really hasn’t been an issue. But this upcoming season I chose to make a change and I’ll be scoring for a team with an 8 year history of losing, and losing big time. The stats I present to the coach, players, and parents will be the same stats, but as I said, the perspective is going to be much different.  

 

It will still all be about the team, but we’ll see if it’s just as easy to ignore good individual performances in losses as it was when the team was a big winner. I suspect a lot more will be made of good individual performances in wins or losses, and that poor individual performances won’t be let slide nearly as easily.

 

It’s always easy to spout rah rah team clichés when the team’s got a history of success.

 

Again, I’ve been extremely lucky in my HS team experiences, so I really don’t know what it’s like to be part of a loser at that level. I’m sure at least a few of you out there have been caught up in a losing team environment, so how do you deal with individual performances?

Winning must be the ultimate goal or they will give a trophy to every high school

Development should be the ultimate goal in practice and training. 

 

 

To put a little perspective on this with a comparison to football.

 

At our HS baseball is not as important and less talented players tend to see the field somewhat more frequently in light of winning.

In football

OMG - Winning is EVERYTHING

Less talented players don't smell the field unless in the case of a blowout.

 

 

This topic has come up before and I have a different point of view than many.  The value on winning any game in HS is significantly overblown in my opinion.

Success is peace of mind which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in  knowing you did your best to become the best you are capable of becoming. - John Wooden

As usual the Wizard has a interesting perspective.  In HS the talent (size, speed and strength also) differential can be so significant that games can become very lopsided affairs.  This does not reflect negatively on the losing side.

 

Coach Wooden offers a highly insightful and proper value placement on the purpose of sports for the significant majority of people that ever pick up any game.  It can be that losing a game 8-3 to a vastly superior foe is a tremendous showing particularly if you were defeated 19-0 in 4 innings earlier in the season.  It is the pursuit and achievement of becoming the best you can be that is the goal of HS sports or sports in general. 

 

Winning or losing....in HS - meaningless.  The Win/Loss record of your HS baseball team will have no relevance in determining if you get hired for a job, who your wife is or anything important in life. 

 

If you think it does please share the evidence.  I would be flabbergasted to hear anyone say that dropping the fact their team won the State in 1997 landed them the big sales job, helped them pass the bar or got them into Med school.  Almost all the time a game....is just a game.  

I doubt many would think that future success in life (or spouse picking) has much to do with winning the championship in HS. There is not a direct line.

 

But I do think you develop and learn the most by winning.You learn how to win. This can be important in baseball and in life.

 

And I completely agree with the statement about sour grapes. The conspiracy theories (who bought what, who is sleeping with whom, who knows the AD, etc) are truly mind boggling. Sometimes you just can't overthink it. Coach plays who he thinks are the best guys to play. That is guaranteed to make some unhappy. And freshmen playing on the freshman team, behind jrs/sophs on JV and seniors/juniors who play varsity isn't a bad thing - they learn the coaches system, rules, philosophy. They're rarely as good as their parents think they are. A 14 year old needs time to learn how to play with 17/18 YO's. Most kids accept this. IMO.

That's sad.

 

I'm glad that HS baseball is nothing like that in our neck of the woods!

GoldenSombrero,

 

Your son is a freshman don't sweat it.The head coach is in charge and he wants all of the Freshman to play for the freshman team.That's his decision so just roll with it.The best thing you can do is be a great TEAM parent for your son's team.Cheer on ALL of the players.Don't be that parent that criticizes every move the coaching staff makes(every school has at least one of those parents),and whatever you do don't compare your son to any other player(s).Be positive ! I chose to sit in the stands,give the play by play to my wife over the cell phone, film our son,and cheer loudly for all the boys

 

My son played on the freshman team,JV team,and Varsity teams in high school.He now plays in college.One of the asst.coaches of my son's Freshman team was a coach who coached  for more than 68 years and is a San Diego County coaching legend.One day he gathered all of the players around for a talk.He wanted the parents to listen too.He told everyone that the freshman baseball experience will stay with you your entire life.You will never forget it.He then dropped a bomb by saying that only a few of you will play varsity ball and even fewer will play beyond high school.

 

At the time I did not believe it.Our freshman team was very good and loaded with talented players.We had an awesome season and it was really a lot of fun.Fast forward to today.Out of the 21 players on our Freshman Team, six made it to the Varsity squad,and out of those six, 3 of the players now play in college.The crusty old coach was right !

 

What happened ? Some of the boys transferred schools,some were cut at JV, a few quit baseball,and the rest switched sports after JV season.You just don't know how everything will play out.

 

I would encourage your son to be a team player.Learn multiple positions and play wherever and whenever the coach needs him.Get him in a strength and conditioning program so he will become bigger,faster,stronger.Keep working hard in the classroom and on the field.

 

I disagree with your notion that HS ball is rec ball.You live in The OC which has many excellent HS baseball coaches and programs.For example,the competition in the Trinity League is fierce and it's one of the best HS leagues in the nation every year.We played  Santa Margarita last year( we won) and they were a well coached talented team.They went on to win CIF SS while we were eliminated in the Semi Finals of The CIF San Diego Section.

 

I hope your son has a great time playing ball this season,and I hope you and your wife are able to enjoy the experience too

 

 

 

 

Because you focus on development you win. You don't win unless you develop. If your going to build a consistent High School program then development is your goal. If not you will good from time to time when a great crop comes through. But never as good as you could have been. If you build a program by developing your players you will always be good and really good at times. And most important your players will get what they deserve. You will never win at the level your capable of without having a serious focus on development. 

Thanks Bobby. No arguments with anything you note in your post. Completely agree with your point about the talent level in OC and especially the Trinity League. My 2018 played for a Trinity travel ball feeder team last year and its actually that experience that makes it tough to see the struggles that the current high school team is having. That Trinity team was DIALED in! Unfortunately we just couldn't afford the $$$ for him to go there (even with financial aid), and his current school is incredible academically which is the most important thing anyway. 

 

Definitely working on the strength & conditioning side of things, and we will be supportive of the program no matter what because the coaches are truly terrific guys, regardless of the team record. The "rec ball" comment comes from the way things have been handled to date, where everybody plays on a 20 man roster and our starters are out by the 3rd / 4th inning so it feels like Little League. Ideally once we get into league play they will tighten things up. Believe me, 2018 being on frosh isn't all bad - we can avoid the politics and junk going on with varsity and just have a core group of solid kids that can hopefully grow together the next four years! 

Winning vs Development:

 

Development from 14U and younger. 

 

Winning and development from 15U on up.  

 

Who wants to pay for a travel team that loses all the time? 

My feeling has always been find talent to develop. Then winning takes care of itself. Learning how to play under pressure and come out on top is part of development.