Winter Velocity

I would not be too worried about how hard you are throwing now. Just get your throwing in and work up to be ready for when your season starts. Most definitely don't put a radar gun on yourself. It just not that important now. Velocity will come as the weather warms.

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Originally posted by bsaeball21:
I have been throwing about twice a week for about the last 6 or 7 weeks indoors.. Havn't been able to throw outside yet or any long toss this year. Been doing some lite bullpens twice a week for about the last 3 weeks.. I was just wondering what would be the average gain in velocity when the season starts this spring. I am going into my senior year. I know it will be depend on what each player has or has not been doing. Just curious what everyone else has been seeing over the years. I would say 2-4 MPH

My son was placed on a throwing program since late fall a month after surgery. Two weeks ago he began doing light pens, now up to 40 pitches.
I asked him if anyone has checked his velo, he said no, not at this time, it's just not that important. As long as you are feeling well, that's what counts. Remember, your pens are for practicing your pitches which is very important, which is very important.

So I agree with Birdman, if they aren't worried this time of year for a pro guy about his velo, you shouldn't be either as a HS player, just do what you have to do to get your arm ready, practice your stuff and the rest will take care of itself.

I know from years past that velocity increases drastically the first few weeks from throwing. A few years ago one of the fathers on our team brought his gun to one of the first practices in late winter/early spring and clocked everyone throwing. As 11u year olds that year at that time no one threw over 54mph. Then a few weeks later with the same gun son was throwing 59mph. By the middle of the season, son was up to 62-63mph.

Arm strength for throwing really does play in with velocity as players start throwing again. A 2-4 mph gain by the start of the season is probably about average for what I have seen. It does take physical strength to throw a ball over and over again at high velocity. Just like lifting weights, the force applied will increase as one works on it

Gingerbread man, it doesn't take physical strength. It takes physical conditioning, physical application of sound mechanical principles and physical ability.

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Originally posted by Bum:
Gingerbread man, it doesn't take physical strength. It takes physical conditioning, physical application of sound mechanical principles and physical ability.

Bum is right, arm strength has little to do with the process, it's the overall conditioning of the pitcher's entire (lots of emphasis on lower half as well), the arm is just supposed to go along for the ride.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Gingerbread man, it doesn't take physical strength. It takes physical conditioning, physical application of sound mechanical principles and physical ability.

I agree that it takes physical conditioning and application of mechanics. However, arm strength (no, I am not talking about bench pressing 350lbs or curling 200lbs) very much does play into the equation. You have to have arm strength for two major reasons-

1. So you don't blow out your ligaments prematurely
2. To impart strong rotation on the ball which not only adds velocity but movement.

Tell me, why is it that as high school kids get older and stronger (not necessarily taller) they also throw harder? Could it have anything to do with not only core strength and flexability, but also an increase in arm strength?

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Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Gingerbread man, it doesn't take physical strength. It takes physical conditioning, physical application of sound mechanical principles and physical ability.

Bum is right, arm strength has little to do with the process, it's the overall conditioning of the pitcher's entire (lots of emphasis on lower half as well), the arm is just supposed to go along for the ride.

Tell me then, why is it that after kids take a break and then start throwing again their arms get sore in the muscle portions of their arms (not the joints)? Then, after throwing for a couple days or a week or so their arm pain goes away? How does this apply to arms strength? Take body-builders for instance- if they stop lifting for a couple months and then start lifting again, even in small amounts, their arms get sore in the muscle regions (not the joints)- thus arms strength.

Tell me- How much actual force is applied on the backside of a baseball to accelerate and impart spin on it with the flick of the wrist? I do know that a baseball can accelerate from 0-90+ mph in less than a tenth of a second. You cannot say that arm strength is not involved- it very much is a defining factor in the velocity of a ball.

GBM,
Maybe you might get a better answer from a pitching instructor, or a trainer, but as far as I am aware there should be no pain or soreness felt in the arm (?) if the body, for any bb player is properly conditioned.
Let me ask you a question, if the strength is all in the arm for a pitcher, that would mean all he has to do is stand on the mound and throw, right? Don't you give any credit to the legs and core that gives the pitcher the momentum to throw at his velocity? If that is correct, my son has spent a lot of wasted time in the gym working on his legs and core.
As I said, IMO, the arm is just there for the ride, the wrist action determines spin, movement.
I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

TPM-
I would have to agree with you. I am no expert either, but I have a 2010 son who has already signed with a top 25 D-1 school who topped out at 92 last summer.. They have given him there workout for pitchers and it is all about Core,Legs, and Shoulders.. He is around 6'1" and his arms are probaly the weakest thing on his body..

Maybe I am just not understanding what he is saying, absolutely one has to strengthen the shoulder but that alone doesn't improve velocity.

My son had shoulder surgery this off season, he was allowed a throwing program immediately, no weights until just recently, and immediately specific excercises to strengthen rotator cuff. AND, a complete new lower body and leg conditioning program he has never been through before becausehe had more time to work on those parts while the shoulder was healing. In three months his bottom half is twice the size and he has added about 25 pounds, all muscle. Most of this was done to releive any stress placed upon the shoulder that could cause injury, my son has never thrown using just his arm, but he also has never had the strength in his legs which has added more power to his throwing.
When he threw his first pen they told him he was throwing too hard. He wasn't even trying.
Best of luck to your son.

Arm strength relative to a pitcher is the ability to the throw ball fast. Arm strength for a fielder is how hard you can throw the ball. It has nothing to do with how physically strong the arm is. So when someone says they are going to build arm strength by long tossing they are talking about building the ability to throw the ball further. Any increase in actual strength for the arm is incidental and mostly irrelevant. If building up the core results in more velocity then you increased your arm strength.

You are arguing about semantics.

I think it analogous to a whip. Proper mechanics applied to flicking (the whip) and a vast amount of power is transferred to the end.. a skinny strand of leather.

Bum, Jr. is small but has huge, muscular calves and legs and a strong core. He's a cut 5'9" 192 lbs. When he takes his shirt off, he looks more like Bruce Lee than Arnold Schwartzenegger. (And of the two do you want to guess who had more power?) He is now topping in the low 90's, sitting 89-90 consistently.

It's all about conditioning and core strength, along with strong legs (like TPM notes). But one more thing that is very important and something I've been preaching for years: Arm speed developed through long-toss.

I agree fully that leg and core strength contribute drastically to throwing velocity. I am not arguing that. I am just saying that a certain % of velocity comes from arm strength. This is why every single kid I know of from 9-18 complain of some arm pain in their muscles when they first begin to throw in the early spring. Certainly every pitcher I know and have coached get cramps in the muscles in some degree- some less and some more, in their arms when they first begin to throw in the spring. Usually for the first few practices until their "arm strength" builds back up again, they will complain of some cramping in their muscle regions of the arm.

Personally I believe that pitchers have to apply a great force on the ball during the late cocking phase to release to impart the last initial velocity and spin on the ball. A baseball with good rotation means that the pitcher has imparted tight spin due entirely to arm strength (no core muscles involved in imparting spin).

I have pictures of my son throwing and right at release point where he is imparting the spin you can see the forearm muscles protruding in a flexed position. I do know that it takes some degree of arm strength therefore to overcome the weight of baseball as it is violently accelertaed by the torso, legs and shoulders. That last bit where the wrist goes from a backwards to a forwards position at release is all about arm strength and it does contribute to velocity.

Arm pain, even in the muscles, is not normal. Bum, Jr. has never had arm pain of any kind. He has thrown year-round, even in the winter, 5-6x a week since age 11. He'll turn 20 next month.

BTW, exit velocity upon release of the baseball is the culmination of the kinetic energy created from the legs and core imparted to the shoulder, the arm, the hand and, finally, the fingers. The arm is just along for the ride. If you don't believe this, stand flat footed and try to throw hard. You can't.

Bum, there's lots of good advice in that post.

You don't need to have a strong arm to throw a 5oz ball.

Velocity is produced way before the pitching arm moves, upon landing he's simply transferring energy produced from the forward momentum (and all the stuff that goes with it). The arm just goes along for the ride, if the pitcher has to exert more force from the arm, he's not using his body correctly to produce that energy and will eventually have an injury, regardless of how "strong" his arm is.



I just don't see how you don't get this GBM.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You don't need to have a strong arm to throw a 5oz ball.

Velocity is produced way before the pitching arm moves, upon landing he's simply transferring energy produced from the forward momentum (and all the stuff that goes with it). The arm just goes along for the ride, if the pitcher has to exert more force from the arm, he's not using his body correctly to produce that energy and will eventually have an injury, regardless of how "strong" his arm is.



I just don't see how you don't get this GBM.

The arm is not just "along for the ride" though. It also helps create the needed velocity to throw hard. I agree that there is a transfer of energy from the legs on upwards in a kinetic chain. But to just say that the arm plays no role "strength" wise is not true. Like i said before, arm strength does two things- it helps prevent injury by having enough muscle to protect what would otherwise be fragile ligaments and joints, and also adds to the velocity of a baseball by imparting the final flick of the wrist.

Let's say for instance that Joel Zumaya was to use my sons arm to throw- sons arm on Zumaya's frame. What do you think would happen? First off, he would probably break his arm or severly tear something inside. Second, he wouldn't have the same velocity- not nearly as high. This is because of the lack of general arm strength.

I am not suggesting that a pitcher gets most or even close to all of his velocity from just his arm. I know that a pitcher gets most of his velocity in the kinetic chain of events in the entire windup. I am suggesting that a small percentage of a balls velocity is created directly from the arms ability to withstand the force generated by the torso rotation and then the flick the wrist to give it it's final push.

That's all.

I recently went to a camp that had "professionals" there and they did a drill with all of the pitchers on developing a more forceful wrist flick. The pitching coach even said that not only will this drill help impart a tighter rotation on the ball creating greater movement, but that the extra force generated by the flick will improve the overall velocity. Guess what? The drill involved nothing other than the arm- no legs, no torso or any other part of the body.

As far as the flick of the wrist goes, it takes 100% arm strength to do that- no other muscle in the body is responsible for the flick of the wrist.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Arm pain, even in the muscles, is not normal. Bum, Jr. has never had arm pain of any kind. He has thrown year-round, even in the winter, 5-6x a week since age 11. He'll turn 20 next month.

BTW, exit velocity upon release of the baseball is the culmination of the kinetic energy created from the legs and core imparted to the shoulder, the arm, the hand and, finally, the fingers. The arm is just along for the ride. If you don't believe this, stand flat footed and try to throw hard. You can't.

Everyone I know who throws a baseball goes through some arm pain or fatigue at start-up in the early spring. It may be only for a few minutes or even at just one of the first practices, but everyone I know has some discomfort either during or after throwing their first time. It's normal. When you don't use muscles for a while and then suddenly call upon them to perform, they are going to fatigue and wear pretty fast until that arm strength can be built up again. The same goes for all of the muscles in the body used to throw. There is a reason that pitching coaches just don't let the pitchers go full bore in spring training. Why is that? Because they haven't conditioned themselves (including the arm strength) to the point where they were a few months ago.

As for standing flat footed and throwing? Sure, a pitcher is not going to get much on the throw. But, the interesting part here is that he still can throw just using arm strength. This tells me right off that the arm strength, coupled with the leg and torso stregth is what sums up velocity at it's higheest level.

The reason pro players aren't taxed during spring training is because it's a long season, period. MLB pitchers do NOT come to camp in their best shape, they don't have to, they already have the job and yes their entire bodies are not fully conditioned, and that means that they don't want the "arm" doing all the work.

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You have announced your son hit 86

Did I say my son has hit 86mph? I only wish, eh eh! He is in the low to mid 70's right now.

I am sorry GBM. I am going back to correct my response.

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You have to have arm strength for two major reasons-

1. So you don't blow out your ligaments prematurely
2. To impart strong rotation on the ball which not only adds velocity but movement.

Ginger; I don't have a "dog in the fight" and am no bio-kinetics expert. My preference would be to build from the "floor up" to improve velocity. I watched Roger Federer blast 126mph serves this morning on his way to another "Major" victory in Australia. He has some of the "skinniest" arms on the Tour. Serving, and throwing are identical motions.

The arm doesn't require muscularity to deliver the ball at speed as much as it needs elasticity. In the sense others have said, " the arm is merely the next to last delivery tool" in the chain. Actually, the last thing to touch the ball, that imparts spin, is the middle finger! Have you not noted the number of pitching injuries to that digit? Additionally, strong arm muscles don't play a significant role in protecting ligaments and tendons or Trevor Hoffman would never have had TJS.

I would, however, as a Dad wanting to protect his sons arm, be a strong proponent of conditioning that protects the arm against the catastrophic "forces" exerted upon the arm and shoulder when pitching. That's markedly different than thinking strong arms increase ball velocity.
The "conditioning" too, is markedly different than what one would do to "get strong."

This conversation is rather redundant. We should just argue that no workouts for the arm are needed to pitch a baseball because any workout would just increase strength.