How do you guys feel about really putting pressure on the heel? Good/ Bad? just looking to start some mechanical conversation it is fun to hear different opinions.
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At what point?
Are you talking about the plant foot coming down after the stride?
Are you talking about the plant foot coming down after the stride?
Yeah...we need a tad more information please. And when life hands you gators..you make shoes and belts.
quote:Originally posted by pro97:
Yeah...we need a tad more information please. And when life hands you gators..you make shoes and belts.
quote:Well if I'm not making gatorade then I am going for luggage.
In this part of Fla. they break out the deep fryer...that don't taste like no stinkin chicken..tastes like lizard
I don't think emphasis on front foot heel pressure isn't really pertainent, at the power position, after foot strike it's all about weight transfer, so you are using the front portion of your foot to in a sense pull you through hip rotation.
I had my first deep fried turkey this year and I must say I am impressed. Very good.
As for the front heel I believe that if you land heel first then you will have a tendency to land stiff legged and "work" to get body through to finish point. It could possibly lock the hips to where you cannot get your body through.
Plus there could be the possibility of landing closed because if you are "leading" with your heel then it will want to get to the ground as quickly as possible which may cause all the stuff I put above.
I'm not a pitching guru (only thing I can guru is food) so I would love to hear other thoughts on this.
As for the front heel I believe that if you land heel first then you will have a tendency to land stiff legged and "work" to get body through to finish point. It could possibly lock the hips to where you cannot get your body through.
Plus there could be the possibility of landing closed because if you are "leading" with your heel then it will want to get to the ground as quickly as possible which may cause all the stuff I put above.
I'm not a pitching guru (only thing I can guru is food) so I would love to hear other thoughts on this.
I have been to a couple of different pitching lessons with some of my high school kids. I just want to make sure I agree with what they are being taught. I found one of them being taught to keep eight on the heel as opposed to on the ball of the foot. (foot next to rubber). It seems to be a much stronger position. He also has him keeping his toe up. (lift leg) This allows him to stay on his heal.
quote:Originally posted by Pastime Trnments:
I have been to a couple of different pitching lessons with some of my high school kids. I just want to make sure I agree with what they are being taught. I found one of them being taught to keep eight on the heel as opposed to on the ball of the foot. (foot next to rubber). It seems to be a much stronger position. He also has him keeping his toe up. (lift leg) This allows him to stay on his heal.
Pastime-
Where do you keep your weight when you're doing a power lift, such as lifting a heavy box?
This guy is talking about the drive leg- not the landing. He is talking about keeping the heel connected, turning the foot in (back knee goes in which creates a V much like good hitters), and taking a drive line down the hill. It does two things- It helps you directionally as well as maximizes ground force energy.
We just had a pitching camp this weekend with four college or pro pitching coaches and that was a point of emphasis for a couple of them when working for the players.
We just had a pitching camp this weekend with four college or pro pitching coaches and that was a point of emphasis for a couple of them when working for the players.
ncball-
Yes, I believe that's what the idea is. I like your terminology of "keeping the heel connected," better than "working through the heel." The bias must be towards the front of the foot for maximum muscle recruitment, but the heel has to stay connected. I always think of Koufax and his approach to using the entire leg to gain maximum fwd momentum. You cannot achieve that by just pushing off the heel.
Yes, I believe that's what the idea is. I like your terminology of "keeping the heel connected," better than "working through the heel." The bias must be towards the front of the foot for maximum muscle recruitment, but the heel has to stay connected. I always think of Koufax and his approach to using the entire leg to gain maximum fwd momentum. You cannot achieve that by just pushing off the heel.
Spizzle- Agreed. That moves starts the kinetic chain that works up from the ground through the body. The key is to sequence everything properly.
So, on Saturday we had Jerry Weinstein (as good a baseball man as there is in the game) give a talk about pitching with the fastball. We were the guineau pig for his presentation that he will give at the ABCA in San Diego in a couple weeks. He will also be inducted into the JC national HOF. One of the things he did was reverse Koufax into a righty and post his video up against Lincecum and Bob Feller on the screen. The similarities in torque and leg drive were incredible. What an amazing presentation. I'm not sure if the 20 kids who saw this understood how good this was but the 10 coaches who were there were in awe. Baseball is a pretty special game!
So, on Saturday we had Jerry Weinstein (as good a baseball man as there is in the game) give a talk about pitching with the fastball. We were the guineau pig for his presentation that he will give at the ABCA in San Diego in a couple weeks. He will also be inducted into the JC national HOF. One of the things he did was reverse Koufax into a righty and post his video up against Lincecum and Bob Feller on the screen. The similarities in torque and leg drive were incredible. What an amazing presentation. I'm not sure if the 20 kids who saw this understood how good this was but the 10 coaches who were there were in awe. Baseball is a pretty special game!
quote:Originally posted by ncball:
This guy is talking about the drive leg- not the landing. He is talking about keeping the heel connected, turning the foot in (back knee goes in which creates a V much like good hitters), and taking a drive line down the hill. It does two things- It helps you directionally as well as maximizes ground force energy.
The problem is that you don't see a late drive in the mechanics of most ML pitchers (except for Lincecum and a couple of others).
Most pitchers' back feet are pulled off the rubber.
YaYa- I didn't say late drive. I talked about a drive line. The drive line goes into a landing with the front leg turning into a "forced coupling" much like a hitter (as you know). That "forced coupling", along with the rotation into foot plant, causes the back heel to come off the ground (again, much like hitting- as I know you know).
I created quite a stir over the terms used. I apoligize. So, if I am reading this right. it is not working through the heal. It is more just keeping the whole foot in contact with the rubber. The using this to create the drive line. This will in essence give me more strength or power coming forward. Of course with the hip being the first thing head down your drive line.
Toe up or toe down does it really matter?
Toe up or toe down does it really matter?
quote:Originally posted by Pastime Trnments:
It is more just keeping the whole foot in contact with the rubber. The using this to create the drive line. This will in essence give me more strength or power coming forward. Of course with the hip being the first thing head down your drive line.
I don't think it really matters how much of the foot is in contact with the rubber, and trying to keep the whole foot in contact with the rubber for too long can lock up the hips. All the back foot does is get the stride and weight shift started. From then on, the back foot is generally PULLED off the rubber.
quote:Originally posted by Pastime Trnments:
Toe up or toe down does it really matter?
Not really.
You see both in the pros.
it's funny how some people throw out terms like "ground force energy" and "forced coupling" knowing that many people on here are amateurs and don't understand that terminology. Maybe it's an effort to sound smart. Maybe they don't know how to put it into terms people can get easily. I'm a professional...i get what you're saying...but know your audience...and try to help the people that may not know what it is you're really saying.
pro97- If I was addressing a player I would explain it to their level. I figured I was talking to a couple people who knew what I was talking about. I don't teach it that way. I do talk that way to people who I think know what I'm talking about. It's not an effort to look smart. It's an effort to explain it properly. Does that make sense?
I'm not some internet guru dude. I've coached real players for about 25 years. I'm always trying to get better and listen to guys alot smarter than me. All I'm trying to do is pass on some of the knowledge that was passed on to me- I don't need anybody to think I'm smart.
You said you were a professional. Player or coach or both?
I'm not some internet guru dude. I've coached real players for about 25 years. I'm always trying to get better and listen to guys alot smarter than me. All I'm trying to do is pass on some of the knowledge that was passed on to me- I don't need anybody to think I'm smart.
You said you were a professional. Player or coach or both?
nc ball
You give very good explanations about the importance of the back ankle turning over into front foot plant. After excruciating work with my son over the last few years, this seems to be the last piece we were missing. very important to at least 3 mph from what I've seen
You give very good explanations about the importance of the back ankle turning over into front foot plant. After excruciating work with my son over the last few years, this seems to be the last piece we were missing. very important to at least 3 mph from what I've seen
nc
What is the verbal cue you use for your players to help them figure out the turning over of the back foot right AT foot plant vs. a tiny delay in it which I think prevents the seperation at maximum efficiency between the lower half and top half.
I tell my son to stay closed on the front side as long as possible into foot plant while thinking turn with the back foot down the hill. You obviously can't turn on it because the weight is on it, but the thinking is that when the weight transfers to the front side near foot plant, then the back heel can snap or turn over at front foot strike helping in the seperation. My son 50% of the time had a weak turning over of the back foot at front foot plant until recently I've been really emphasizing it. From a gun reading it made about a 3 mph difference almsot immediately. I can only attribute it to increased seperation allowing the arm to whip through faster? does this make sense??
Again what is a better term to use for a cue to get him thinking back foot turn??
What is the verbal cue you use for your players to help them figure out the turning over of the back foot right AT foot plant vs. a tiny delay in it which I think prevents the seperation at maximum efficiency between the lower half and top half.
I tell my son to stay closed on the front side as long as possible into foot plant while thinking turn with the back foot down the hill. You obviously can't turn on it because the weight is on it, but the thinking is that when the weight transfers to the front side near foot plant, then the back heel can snap or turn over at front foot strike helping in the seperation. My son 50% of the time had a weak turning over of the back foot at front foot plant until recently I've been really emphasizing it. From a gun reading it made about a 3 mph difference almsot immediately. I can only attribute it to increased seperation allowing the arm to whip through faster? does this make sense??
Again what is a better term to use for a cue to get him thinking back foot turn??
I think that foot turns in along with the ankle and knee much earlier than foot plant. It's almost done at the apex of the lift. That's what helps you ride the back leg out and drive down the hill.
My son has been working on not letting the lift leg drift toward 3rd. When the leg drifts the upper body follows, he gets tilted and you get the usual assortment of problems that come from being out of balance. A suggestion he got from his instructor recently was to keep his weight on his heal, rather than the ball of his foot on his post leg.
After quite some bit of time trying to work through how to fix this balance problem, this simple adjustment has worked wonders. The best part is you see it show up in his command of the strike zone with one more variable in the motion more fully under control. He got through two innings on 13 pitches his first time out after the adjustment. Awfully small sample size, I know, but he's also feeling alot better in the pen and has confidence he can hit the mit where it's placed now.
Eight months ago he was a mechanical mess and they've been cleaning up bits and pieces along the way. It was nice to see this lingering problem get cleaned up with such a simple solution.
After quite some bit of time trying to work through how to fix this balance problem, this simple adjustment has worked wonders. The best part is you see it show up in his command of the strike zone with one more variable in the motion more fully under control. He got through two innings on 13 pitches his first time out after the adjustment. Awfully small sample size, I know, but he's also feeling alot better in the pen and has confidence he can hit the mit where it's placed now.
Eight months ago he was a mechanical mess and they've been cleaning up bits and pieces along the way. It was nice to see this lingering problem get cleaned up with such a simple solution.
