Worth Pursuing?

I think it is your sons decision to make--he is the one who has to co-exist with the coach


Incidently ---in college it is all about the "W"--don't ever forget that

quote:

Originally posted by parent:
Son has found a school that seems the perfect fit in many ways. Great campus environment, excellent academics, successful baseball program (in terms of record), friends who attend there, etc. A place preferable to every other campus he has visited. He could see himself there in a heartbeat, except for one thing: the main baseball coach. This guy likes to bring in JUCO players to "challenge" his players who have been there since freshman year. He is quite intense and believes it's all about the "W." An upperclassman player says the coach likes to "mess with our minds." The player also that the coach is very hands-off and emotionally removed. The player says that he has not improved his own baseball skills very much since arriving at the program 3 years ago. My son tends to respond best to coaches who encourage and are hands-on. This usually brings out the best in his performance. If you were in our shoes, what would you do?

Somewhere out there is a good fit (sorry could not resist!), this does not sound like it is it.

If you son is not going to respond to the coaching style, he is going to have a tough time there. You have to research what coaching style the programs have to do, it is very difficult to really get the right story, it sounds like you have, I would move on to a program which fits your son's style and can develop him to succeed at the college level and hopefully beyond.

I find it hard to beleive that after all is said here, you would ask.

We always say don't decide on a school for the coach. Many players choose schools based on coaching preference, but they LIKE them.
You have anything positive to say on this coach?

Then again, coach might not be there when your son arrives, that's a possibility.

Are you playing with us?

TPM, I'm not playing with anyone, simply asking an honest question. As far as positive things about the coach, he's not a screamer and he's doesn't cuss at the players. He just doesn't seem to be the type to pour himself into developing the players that he's recruited.

Like I said, the campus otherwise is a great fit. If he were injured and unable to play baseball anymore, he'd be happy staying there. There are other school we've looked at where we love the coaching philosophy but are not sure our son would be happy staying there should he get injured

One other positive thing -- the players really like the assistants at this school.

I think you ought to read this thread, at least once...
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4686003481/m/3011098091

quote:

doesn't seem the type to pour himself into developing the players he's recruited

I think that's is why they depend on asst. coaches for pitching, hitting, etc. That is their job.
Your son might need to learn to be less dependent on the "hands-on" style & develop more self confidence & self motivation. Appreciate it, if "hands on" happens, but become more independent, self reliant, seeking help when needed, but not neccessarily approval... being "needy", so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by parent:
One other positive thing -- the players really like the assistants at this school.

Many head coaches DON'T teach, they leave that to their assistants. Just remember, the HC is the BOSS. What he says goes, he determines who plays and who sits. And assistants come and go as do Head Coaches, but if he has been there long, winning record, he most likely is there until he retires.

I think a positive role model is a very important attribute in looking for a HC, but that's a matter of opinion. Some of you might not realize just how important that is. There is nothing wrong in challenging players, going for the "W" (TR is right that's the name of the game). And some do mess with your mind, but only for you to do better and sometimes that is how it is perceived by players.

Being emotionally detached is what bothers me.

Parent - Not often do you find a program with such positive points that fit your son's needs and wants.

One question would be are there a lot of transfers out of the school or players quitting the program. That could be a sign of how it would be, if there are not, it most likely something that the guys can work with.

As others have stated, you don't want to only make your decision on the coaching staff, but you have to know what you are dealing with going in. One question we always ask is where the coaches are in their contract, if we like them, we want to know if they are going to be around, I certainly would not count on a coach you do not like to leave, because that most likely not happen and if it does, the program is going to change anyway, but it is useful information.

Good Luck!

Sounds to me like your gut is screaming " No No No", but the brain is saying "just a minute".

Tough call, but if baseball is important, it's tough if you go in truly not liking the head guy. There are lots of less than personable head coaches out there. There's nothing wrong or unusual about intensity, and winning is expected in every program, from the lowliest to the mightiest.

Players will always be in some sort of fight for their jobs. At every level, a lack of production/performance can only last for so long before someone else gets a shot. Brutal at times, but absolutely true.

Thanks for all the input. You've raised some good points that will help us in deciding which way to go. I know a lot of people say "you'll just know when it's the right fit," but frankly, we haven't found a school that meets every expectation and we're running out of options due to son's desired major.

quote:

we haven't found a school that meets every expectation

You won't.

quote:

This guy likes to bring in JUCO players to "challenge" his players who have been there since freshman year. He is quite intense and believes it's all about the "W."

Welcome to college baseball.

quote:

This guy likes to bring in JUCO players to "challenge" his players who have been there since freshman year. He is quite intense and believes it's all about the "W." An upperclassman player says the coach likes to "mess with our minds." The player also that the coach is very hands-off and emotionally removed. The player says that he has not improved his own baseball skills very much since arriving at the program 3 years ago.

I would talk with your son about each of those statements. I would also try and find out if the upper classmen input is confirmed or might be "sour grapes." If confirmed, then your son needs to understand what awaits him, including the possibility his skills won't improve. The assistant's might be good guys but if they are doing the coaching and not improving is a result, that, to me, would be hard to accept.
I know, from personal experience with one of ours, that these types of information can be rationalized in hopes things will work. If they don't, it makes for some very long days for your son. Try and confirm if this is accurate information about this program. If it is, your son has a lot of changes to make to adapt because the head coach isn't going to change.

WOW! Lots of great advice here. I'll repeat (just for the sake of repeating)...in college, its all about the "W"! Ain't that the truth baby!

quote:

An upperclassman player says the coach likes to "mess with our minds."

I'm not too sure you could find a top-50 program in America where there isn't at least one upperclassman who wouldn't say the same.

Many of the things you described are a fact of life at big-time programs. Dig a little deeper if you can...but there are "challenges" in every program. Thats a fact of life.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I find it hard to beleive that after all is said here, you would ask.

We always say don't decide on a school for the coach. Many players choose schools based on coaching preference,

Then again, coach might not be there when your son arrives, that's a possibility.

Are you playing with us?

wow....I cannot agree more.

It is human nature for a player(kid) to seek the limelight. When you find out the head coach you adore also wants to seek the limelight from inside information, you have to address that also with the coach.

What motivated you coach Smiiiith to want to leave this program at the same time selling it to me? Are you taking me with you??

Bully's mom, not sure what you're referring to, but I'll trust that TPM (and "coach Smiiiith") understand.

Hey guys, no problem with the "W." My kid and I LOVE the "W" and HATE the "L." The only problem I have is when the "W" is pursued with little or no regard to the physical, mental, and character development of the players on the team. Yeah, you can motivate with intimidation and head games, but you can also motivate (and succeed) through high expectations supported by encouragement and genuine care for your players. We prefer the latter approach and we personally know of coaches at 2 programs like this -- one D1 and one D3. Again, neither of these schools offers exactly what we are looking for in other areas (academics, campus environment, etc.), but they're looking more and more attractive all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by parent:
Bully's mom, not sure what you're referring to, but I'll trust that TPM (and "coach Smiiiith") understand.

I don't get it either.

I think you have the right idea. Many caoches out there that are pretty hard nosed. High expectations supported by encouragment and genuine care is what you would want in a HC.

Are you sure that your are not just getting some sour grape info from some players?

Sounds like a perfect fit to me! I agree with Infielddad in that I think your son will have to make some adjustments. (no matter where he goes). I also concur with justbaseball and FormerObserver ----- that's college baseball! I‘ll never for get the phone call I got after the first day of fall ball practice when my son was a freshman in college. His first comments were … “The head coach sure has changed a lot since he recruited me.” I’m sure I said something like; “Duh -- Welcome to the real world”. I can tell you college baseball it is ALL about the “W” and has nothing to do with making your son better ---- unless that equates to helping the W-L record. As far as bringing in a JUCO player to challenge the other players --- again this is all about finding the best players to win ball games. Your son and every other son are disposable pawns in this game if they aren't contributors. Don’t blame the coach. Understand that if HE doesn’t win they may bring in another COACH to take HIS job. If your son works his tail off and makes the sacrifices necessary to be a contributor and takes the initiative to make himself better, he will have a great college experience. If he decides not to take charge of his future ---- then he can blame the coaches.
Fungo

quote:

I'm not too sure you could find a top-50 program in America where there isn't at least one upperclassman who wouldn't say the same.

Many of the things you described are a fact of life at big-time programs. Dig a little deeper if you can...but there are "challenges" in every program. Thats a fact of life.

I have to climb on board saying, "very good advice" given in many posts above. College baseball is mostly about the W, even at a small D3 college like my son attends. The coach who recruited you may leave very unexpectedly. (Happened) The new coach may have so many things to adjust to, to get a handle on, that he really doesn't have the time to be "hands on" in terms of player development (at least temporarily). He has to put a team on the field with the best chance to win games, in order not to put his own job in jeopardy. A freshman who is not able to make an immediate contribution (and probably a small percentage of freshmen can expect that) may have to be patient, work hard, and wait for his turn. When the turn comes a year or two later, there may be a bunch of JUCO transfers who are competing for the job.

I think one of the most important things players can learn, going into the college years, is to be able to make adjustments. And I have to confess that my son learned that lesson a little better, a little quicker, than I did. I have been disappointed at times about how all of the things mentioned above do happen during the college years. He hasn't wasted any time being disappointed, but has just kept working hard with a positive attitude, respecting his coach's decisions, and it seems that this year (junior year) may be the time when the hard work will start to pay off. Parent, the one upperclassman who gave your son the slightly negative impression might be on target - or might be munching on sour grapes. It's tough to know the answer - sometimes it doesn't become clear until a year or two into the college experience.

Best wishes to your son!

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I can tell you college baseball it is ALL about the “W” and has nothing to do with making your son better ---- unless that equates to helping the W-L record.

Bullseye!

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
He has to put a team on the field with the best chance to win games, in order not to put his own job in jeopardy.

Bingo!

Be careful in this courtship called a recruiting process. I think in our experience, two coaches in particular stood out as being "encouraging" and "developmental" and "nurturing" with "high expectations."

We have since learned from other players who attended those schools that none of that could be further from the truth. But that does nothing to reduce my genuine respect and admiration for those coaches to this day. I put it more in the "amusing" category.

College baseball is tough. It is sometimes not particularly "encouraging." Often not "nuturing" and sometimes you wonder about the "developmental" part. "Genuine care?" Yes. I've seen that in spades. But overall it is tough!

And my son loves it. And I love it. And my wife loves it. No matter what, your son will grow up to be a man far faster than any of his peers not doing this college athletics thing. As I said before, dig deeper, but have your eyes open to the softer ones. Look inside the box there too. You might be surprised.

quote:

by jbb: I'm not too sure you could find a top-50 program in America where there isn't at least one upperclassman who wouldn't say the same ... Many of the things you described are a fact of life at big-time programs.

actually those are the facts of life in "most" of college baseball, well beyond the top 50

quote:

by parent: you can motivate with intimidation and head games, but you can also motivate (and succeed) through high expectations supported by encouragement and genuine care for your players. We prefer the latter approach and we personally know of coaches at 2 programs like this -

to be true to yourself, you have 2 choices as I see it

1) inform the coach your son will be enrolling at his school & will try out for the team IF & WHEN the coach changes his coaching "style"

2) find another school with a coach who fits your style & a 5 yr contract - the academics will be basicly the same anyway - math is math, etc

hope that helps



.

parent, you are getting input from the very best on what life is like in college baseball.
I saw you posted in June of this year that your son is an upcoming junior. There is still plenty of time to get more information.
I think Fungo, justbb, bee> are likely to be correct based on the information you have provided. However the comments you attribute to an upper classmen about not improving, about the mind games, if reliable , should be factors in your choice.
Things to consider: coaches usually don't give recruits access to players that are "malcontents" when the recruiting occurs. If this upper classmen was someone your son met on a recruiting visit, if it is someone who has played/competed for those years as opposed to sitting most of the time, and especially if it was someone the coaches wanted him to meet, the information seems more reliable than if it came through other sources.
What makes the information questionable is the team is a winner and it sounds like the coach has been there a while. Teams don't win at the collegiate level without players performing/producing/improving. I, for one, happen to believe that college coaches have a huge impact in creating an environment and imparting on players the ability to continue to improve.
If this school is your son's top choice, I would plan on watching a lot of their games and practices next Spring. That will give you first hand information on the coach and the program. If they play hard, compete well, execute and are fundamentally sound, are disciplined, and have good chemistry, they are well coached. There are different types of coaching approaches in college ball, but the successful ones produce a brand of baseball that is pretty easy to see during practice and games.

.
Parent,

First off….Kudo’s to you and your son. You have a great perspective, you know your son, you know the program, you know your fit, you have plan B, and it appears that you have done all the proper research. I think the most single important thing you have done is to be ready move forward with your eyes open.

Second...The problem is that there is never a perfect fit and never easy answers. Particularly from outside (us) but you really have gotten some excellent feedback here IMO.I learned/thought a great deal reading this thread.

Hard to judge from our position, but given the circumstances as you lay them out? Mess with my mind…OK. Challenge me….Please do. I expect and want that. Bring in JC’s?...Expected. Those things only make me stronger. But hands-off and emotionally removed? This worries me….some…but not necessarily a deal killer and I am the biggest fan of a perfect coach fit out here.

IMO…Important things to consider…

- It is human nature to be overly critical of a coach who has made decisions that do not favor you. Young athletes often fall into this trap. You have to look carefully not only at the head coach but at the motivations/maturity of those who have commented. One of my favorite bits of research was a player who was a star at a school as a freshman and then left. He was a great source of information as to the worst case scenario. We took the information, chewed on it, took what we considered was valid to our case and… my son went there anyway, and is happy and developing..

- At the risk of overstating it, good cop/bad cop is very common in college programs. The Head coach makes those tough decisions and can appear somewhat aloof, the assistants get very close to the players. Very common scenario. Doesn’t necessarily mean that he is actually that way personally. May just appear that was as the assistants are so involved. Might simply be a management style. His is the entire program, and I think that is what you must consider. Though it is a point well taken that assistants come and go.

- I would research the program carefully. Yes, I too am a big advocate of learning to adapt to situations, learning on the fly to adapt to management styles, being flexible, but putting my son in a situations where I KNOW going in that there will be difficult philosophically?. Research and eyes wide open.

- Yes, Head coaches are under pressure to get the "W", yes that necessitates some tough, tough decisions. I understand that. But there are many ways to make those decisions palatable for all, and good coaches and good communicators do just that not just because it is the “right way” but in an effort to preserve team unity and players pulling toward a common goal. I am very naive. I believe that toughness handled properly creates respect. In my naive world view the best coaches may not have agreement but they do have and command respect and as a result the players will walk through walls for them. Do the current players REALLY dislike the coach, or do they find him tough but respect him?

- Plan B. For me at least I go in with my eyes wide open. If I can adapt great. If not do I have some solid thought into plan B.

- From this distance I cannot judge you family of the program or your fit…but I would research it carefully. Players are going to be spending an incredible amount of time in that coaches environment and philosophy. In the case of many programs the time spent there is far more than in any other single aspect of their lives. In the end my question for any young man and family looking at the baseball side of the overall program is respect and success. You may not agree but can you respect and prosper?

As I have said before only a family and a player can understand how all the pieces (athletic, academic, geographic, social, financial, emotional, intangible…) go together, and what place baseball should take.

There are no easy answers. Keep at it...with your perspective it will all work out in the end.

44

"My assistant coaches coach."

"I make the budget and I do the line-up."

From my son's coach on a recruiting visit.

Thanks so much for all the responses. Great food for thought. I'm going to print this thread out so son and I can re-read it again and again as decision time nears.

Excellent thread. The only thing to add is to read each post in it.

Research would indicate that nearly 50% of the husbands and fathers in our country are "emotionally removed".