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12 replies

Would you ever do/say this?

Tangents23Tangents2310+ posts
I love this site but have been away for awhile so I'm doing some catchup as I get ready to coach in my 16th high school season.

We normally have excellent upiring in our league but this past season was not one of them (in my opinion). I am hoping to post some of the questions/calls in the next few days.

First one-
We are on defense. Opponents have R1 on 2B who is stealing on the pitch. Batter swings for strike 3 and F2 makes a low catch just above the ground. (I am sitting on a bucket 20 feet away) and throws to 3B. R1 is safe. Coach yells for BR to run to 1B. Having clearly seen F2 catch the ball and wanting to avoid a long throw across the diamond I yell to F5 to hold the ball.

PU rules pitch hits the dirt and awards BR 1B. I obviously argue and PU gets together with BU and they change the call to out.
Opposing coach comes out and PU and BU again get together and change the call to safe. When I come out for an explanation PU tells me that he originally asked BU if he saw it hit the dirt to which he said "no" so he called him out. The second time he went out the BU said he actualy didn't see anything becasue he was watching the play at 3B so this is why it was changed back to safe.
PU goes on to tell me that he "heard" it hit the dirt and that he needs to use all of his "senses" when determining the call. I ask him "so you didn't see it hit the dirt and your partner didn't see it but you are awarding him the base!?" to which he replied yes.
Questions-
What would you call?
Would you ever make a call based on other "sesnses"
And what do you do when neither umpire saw something either way.
Original Post

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D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
I love this site but have been away for awhile so I'm doing some catchup as I get ready to coach in my 16th high school season.

We normally have excellent upiring in our league but this past season was not one of them (in my opinion). I am hoping to post some of the questions/calls in the next few days.

First one-
We are on defense. Opponents have R1 on 2B who is stealing on the pitch. Batter swings for strike 3 and F2 makes a low catch just above the ground. (I am sitting on a bucket 20 feet away) and throws to 3B. R1 is safe. Coach yells for BR to run to 1B. Having clearly seen F2 catch the ball and wanting to avoid a long throw across the diamond I yell to F5 to hold the ball.

PU rules pitch hits the dirt and awards BR 1B. I obviously argue and PU gets together with BU and they change the call to out.
Opposing coach comes out and PU and BU again get together and change the call to safe. When I come out for an explanation PU tells me that he originally asked BU if he saw it hit the dirt to which he said "no" so he called him out. The second time he went out the BU said he actualy didn't see anything becasue he was watching the play at 3B so this is why it was changed back to safe.
PU goes on to tell me that he "heard" it hit the dirt and that he needs to use all of his "senses" when determining the call. I ask him "so you didn't see it hit the dirt and your partner didn't see it but you are awarding him the base!?" to which he replied yes.
Questions-
What would you call?
Would you ever make a call based on other "sesnses"
And what do you do when neither umpire saw something either way.


There are lots of things wrong here.

First of all, PU needs to make a call on the pitch, including whether it was caught or not caught. Your post does not indicate if PU made any initial call.

Next, the batter isn't "awarded" a base on an uncaught 3rd strike. Did he run to 1st base?

On the no-catch/catch/no-catch call, the only comment I have is ugh.

On judgment calls, the umpire is permitted to use all available senses, including smell, if necessary. Smile

Finally, I knew you had a bad crew before you even described the play, because they permitted you to sit on a bucket 20 feet away instead of requiring you to be in the dugout.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
This a call that can be missed quite easily, especially when the batter swings. The problem is you have to call something and stick with it. What most crews do is have a subtle signal that the base umpire will flash to the plate umpire so they already are on the same page. There is no reason for the BU to not see the pitch all the way in, if the batter had hit the ball and he wasn't looking then he was in harm's way. Now, when they got together if they both agreed that neither was sure then they have to stick with what he had originally, out.
Tangents23Tangents2310+ posts
Dash, Yes, I should have stated "allowd BR to stay on first" not awarded, since he was already there. Next, I have always been allowed to sit outside the dugout while players are told they must be in or beyond 'the extension' of the dugout. Is it against Fed rules for a coach to be outside the dugout as well? (obviosly our dugout is very close to the field) Or is that by state adoption?

When you agree that umpires are "permitted to use all available senses" should I have accepted that as an aqppropriate explanantion/rationale for this call?
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
I have always been allowed to sit outside the dugout while players are told they must be in or beyond 'the extension' of the dugout. Is it against Fed rules for a coach to be outside the dugout as well? (obviosly our dugout is very close to the field) Or is that by state adoption?

Rule 3-3-1-j prohibits coaches (other than base coaches) from being outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area. Practically speaking, the bucket can't be on live ball ground.
quote:

When you agree that umpires are "permitted to use all available senses" should I have accepted that as an aqppropriate explanantion/rationale for this call?

No. It was a bad attempt at humor. The situation you describe was handled very poorly by the umpiring crew.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
When you agree that umpires are "permitted to use all available senses" should I have accepted that as an aqppropriate explanantion/rationale for this call?


Obviously this umpire handled this situation badly. That said, I can't begin to count how many times I have heard coaches support an argument with an umpire with, "You must have HEARD the ball hit the bat" and "You have to have HEARD the ball hit the ground."
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
There is no reason for the BU to not see the pitch all the way in, if the batter had hit the ball and he wasn't looking then he was in harm's way.


An egregious violation of the very fundamental "the ball will take you to the play" proverb. What would the BU say if the PU went to him on a checked swing appeal?
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Would you ever make a call based on other "senses"
And what do you do when neither umpire saw something either way.


There are times when other senses do enter into making a call.....

The sound of a ball hitting jersey can assist in making a HBP call....

The sounds of the ball hitting the bat versus hands can assist in making a call......

The sound of the ball hitting the glove in a tight banger..

as to your second question, someone has to have seen something or had the responsiblity to see something.....and that person just has to make the call....there are very few "do-overs" in baseball....

you take your lumps and move on...
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
There is no reason for the BU to not see the pitch all the way in, if the batter had hit the ball and he wasn't looking then he was in harm's way.


An egregious violation of the very fundamental "the ball will take you to the play" proverb. What would the BU say if the PU went to him on a checked swing appeal?


"Yes, he did," if he knows what's good for him. If my BU isn't doing his job, at least he can get me a strike so I can be done with the game and dissociate from him more quickly.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Good point Piaa. I didn't really think of those situations. I believe that umpires are indeed trained to judge the sound of the ball hitting the glove versus the foot hitting the bag. Is that true? Regardless, do you think the argument of him using his senses was valid in my situation?


How unusual. Most coaches are more concerned about umpires not using any sense at all.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:


"Yes, he did," if he knows what's good for him. If my BU isn't doing his job, at least he can get me a strike so I can be done with the game and dissociate from him more quickly.


Coach: "But you were watching the play at 3rd base. You couldn't possibly see a swing."

BU: "But I heard the swing and felt the wind from it. That's two senses, coach."

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