Indiana hitter told to get back in the box after a HBP. A lefty pitcher hit a lefty hitter with a sweeping breaking ball. The hitter locked up and turned away. Umpire said it wasn't an attempt to get out of the way.
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Yeah, saw that. What the heck is a LH hitter supposed to do? Bail on any CB that starts at his body? Pretty sure that home plate ump wasn't a LH hitter back in the day.
Sounds like an ump who feels the need to assert himself to prove he belongs on the big stage.
Finally! A pitcher's ump.
MTH posted:Sounds like an ump who feels the need to assert himself to prove he belongs on the big stage.
Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.
This is his ninth regional.
I have seen this call made so much this season and it is total BS.
They started the increased enforcement of that rule several years ago when all the college players were wearing all of the "body armor" and actually leaning out into pitches.
Umps need to stop "overthinking" things.
Buzzard05 posted:I have seen this call made so much this season and it is total BS.
They started the increased enforcement of that rule several years ago when all the college players were wearing all of the "body armor" and actually leaning out into pitches.
Umps need to stop "overthinking" things.
Sigh...I've already explained what happened with the rule on this site. It's not the umpires.
Maybe the ump was wrong in that instance but generally you see it very often that players make no attempt at all to avoid or even dive into the pitch (with their body armour
) and rarely if ever they get called back to the plate. I think it is good when umps try to prevent that.
I'm very aware there has been a problem in the past with college hitters leaning into pitches. There was a point where the number of HBP's was absurd. But I believe the umpire got this one wrong.
This was a lefthanded hitter facing a lefty with a wide sweeping curve. To hit the ball the hitter has to keep his shoulder in until the last possible moment. Then if the pitch doesn't break enough all he has left is to turn his shoulder away so he doesn't take it in the ribs.
With RJM on this. Matt, I know you know your stuff. I know there is the emphasis now on "must make an attempt" to not get hit and can't lean. But a LH hitter CANNOT have the least bit of thought that he will make an attempt to be missed on a LH curve ball that is destined to end up somewhere between 3-4" inside and on inside black. Break varies pitch to pitch. As RJM said, he HAS to keep his shoulder in until last possible split second. This has to be taken into consideration with the enforcement of the rules and it didn't appear to be on this occasion. You can probably spell out the letter of the law and prove us wrong but you know there has to be practical application at times.
cabbagedad posted:With RJM on this. Matt, I know you know your stuff. I know there is the emphasis now on "must make an attempt" to not get hit and can't lean. But a LH hitter CANNOT have the least bit of thought that he will make an attempt to be missed on a LH curve ball that is destined to end up somewhere between 3-4" inside and on inside black. Break varies pitch to pitch. As RJM said, he HAS to keep his shoulder in until last possible split second. This has to be taken into consideration with the enforcement of the rules and it didn't appear to be on this occasion. You can probably spell out the letter of the law and prove us wrong but you know there has to be practical application at times.
I'm not saying he was right or wrong--I haven't seen the play (I'm actually taking everyone's word that it seemed incorrect.)
What I'm saying is that because of how this has been communicated, it's causing a lot of "fun" for those of us who have to draw the line somewhere.
Ahhh, got it.
Sorry guys but I like the call in theory.....didn't see the actual play. With all the armor that batters wear now a days, a batter standing inside the box can literally have his arms in the strike zone. Had a situation in HS baseball here, LH batter LH pitcher. Batter is 0-2 with 2 ks. Full count breaking ball batter sticks elbow guard in ball knicks it finishes dead center of plate hbp awarded should've been 3rd out in inning. Inning continue run scores final 3-2 in favor hitters team. Bad call no way around it, hitter was in strike zone shoulda been strike 3! we allow too much of that stuff that wouldn't happen if they don't wear all the armour...oh yeah almost forgot, JMO
If you'd been talking about a righty on righty matchup, I would've asked if you were on my kids team.
Body armor outside of the helmet should be no base awarded period.
Matt13 posted:Buzzard05 posted:I have seen this call made so much this season and it is total BS.
They started the increased enforcement of that rule several years ago when all the college players were wearing all of the "body armor" and actually leaning out into pitches.
Umps need to stop "overthinking" things.
Sigh...I've already explained what happened with the rule on this site. It's not the umpires.
Is this the explanation you are referring to?
"HBP: this has been an active issue that the NCAA has been trying to clean up. The rule changed a few years ago from awarding the batter first as long as the pitch was in the box and he did not intentionally move to get hit (there was no requirement to move out of the way.) When the rule changed, there was still some grey area when it came to pitches where the batter didn't move. Now, as a point of emphasis, we are to keep the batter at home when he permits the pitch to hit him. That's the biggest reason you're seeing that increase."
I have to say I don't get it.
What is a batter suppose to do go all matrix move in an attempt to avoid it? If he didn't lean, or put his body into the path of the ball then seriously, why can't he have the base?
Some will do anything to win a baseball game and some coaches I'm sure will instruct some less talented hitters to take the hbp walk. I've seen this, where a kid will deliberately move their shoulder/arm forward to get hit. I think it's silly and any kid needing to do this to get on should take up ping pong instead.
MTH posted:Sounds like an ump who feels the need to assert himself to prove he belongs on the big stage.
Umpires don't make the rules.........Umpires don't change the rules........Umpires don't provide the official interpretation of how the rules are to be called.
These all come from the NCAA.....
The only thing the rules give us is the phrase "in the judgment of the umpire".......As to HBP, I have been known to be somewhat more liberal than some as to awarding the HBP. I admit I may be influenced by the previous NCAA ruling on HBP........
In the case of awarding HBP, my judgment is all I can use.......if I feel he let the ball hit him, or dipped into the ball, then he stays.........if not he gets HBP.
If you aren't confident in your judgment, you don't belong on the "big stage"..........
piaa_ump posted:MTH posted:Sounds like an ump who feels the need to assert himself to prove he belongs on the big stage.
Umpires don't make the rules.........Umpires don't change the rules........Umpires don't provide the official interpretation of how the rules are to be called.
These all come from the NCAA.....
The only thing the rules give us is the phrase "in the judgment of the umpire".......As to HBP, I have been known to be somewhat more liberal than some as to awarding the HBP. I admit I may be influenced by the previous NCAA ruling on HBP........
In the case of awarding HBP, my judgment is all I can use.......if I feel he let the ball hit him, or dipped into the ball, then he stays.........if not he gets HBP.
If you aren't confident in your judgment, you don't belong on the "big stage"..........
I think we are all in agreement with the bolded. I think the opinion of the rank and file here is that logical judgment of curveball in a left on left situation is that he gets a base.
In my opinion if the kid didn't move into the ball he gets a base...100% of the time. you have no way of judging frozen...so the benefit of doubt goes to the hitter....it is my judgment. He didn't move in a positive or negative manner...
I do find many umpires like to hide behind the rule book and the interpretation meetings.
Now hold on one second umps... it's hypocritical to say umps don't make the rules etc. and yet every one of you will admit to calling an 'appropriate ' strike zone rather than the strike zone laid out in the rule book. Pick a lane please. What about balks that are balks by rule which are let go 'because they are not deceptive in nature'. There is a lot of 'customization' of the rule book by individual umpires so why is this suddenly different? Maybe the rules committee should make it a point of emphasis to stop calling the shin high strike 8 inches outside. Personally I think they had it right with using the batters box. The hitter should own that space. You want to move the box off the plate a few inches fine. But that box should belong to the hitter. And I am a pitching guy!
FWP posted:Now hold on one second umps... it's hypocritical to say umps don't make the rules etc. and yet every one of you will admit to calling an 'appropriate ' strike zone rather than the strike zone laid out in the rule book. Pick a lane please. What about balks that are balks by rule which are let go 'because they are not deceptive in nature'. There is a lot of 'customization' of the rule book by individual umpires so why is this suddenly different? Maybe the rules committee should make it a point of emphasis to stop calling the shin high strike 8 inches outside. Personally I think they had it right with using the batters box. The hitter should own that space. You want to move the box off the plate a few inches fine. But that box should belong to the hitter. And I am a pitching guy!
Turn in your membership card, sir. You are OUT of the Shrine.
And so we come to these facts.......
- A game of baseball would be a total disaster if we made any decisions based on the opinions of the rank and file of both partisan sides. The reason we have Umpires is so decisions are made by an arbiter with no interest in who wins the game. In order to have order rather than chaos, we make one man's judgment the ruling factor.
- The rule book does not support "giving the batter the benefit of the doubt". The rule is equal for both sides......The pitcher should not hit the batter with the ball and the batter should not permit the ball hit him. The rule book knows that it is not always possible to avoid being hit by the ball. Therefore they require an "effort to avoid". In that case the rule permits the Umpire to use his judgment in making a ruling.
- It is no insult to say an umpire resides and makes rulings using the rule book and interpretations........ I do not think many would support an umpire who made up his own rules or ignored the accepted interpretations from the NCAA........it cant be both ways.
The rule book may be oddly written and compiled in a old format but it is amazingly complete. The human factor, as in the "the judgment of the umpire" is recognized by every association in organized baseball.
OBR 9.02 (a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.
Matt13 posted:Buzzard05 posted:I have seen this call made so much this season and it is total BS.
They started the increased enforcement of that rule several years ago when all the college players were wearing all of the "body armor" and actually leaning out into pitches.
Umps need to stop "overthinking" things.
Sigh...I've already explained what happened with the rule on this site. It's not the umpires.
Sigh....I went back and read your post....
So what do you constitute as "where the batter didn't move" or "permits the pitch to hit him"?
Because I have seen several big curveballs that don't break, and sliders that "back up" where the hitter stands his ground waiting on the break and it doesn't happen. At the last moment they turn away from the pitch so as to not get drilled where they can get injured....only to have the ump keep them at the plate.
Are they supposed to go diving out of the box the instant they realize the pitch is inside...even if it ends up bending back in for a strike (which I have also seen)?
If it is true that it only takes 0.4 second for a 90mph fastball to reach home plate after it leaves the pitchers hand, how much time does the batter REALLY have to give an "effort to avoid" if he spent most of the 0.4 seconds determining the path the ball will take?
CaCO3Girl posted:If it is true that it only takes 0.4 second for a 90mph fastball to reach home plate after it leaves the pitchers hand, how much time does the batter REALLY have to give an "effort to avoid" if he spent most of the 0.4 seconds determining the path the ball will take?
I recall reading an article (think it was called Anatomy of a Pitch or something like that) where the batter had to make up his mind to swing (or not) in the time it took the pitch to travel 14 feet. A 90 mph fastball is traveling 132 ft/sec so it takes about 0.45 seconds to get to home plate. If I have figured this correctly the batter has just a tad more than 0.1 seconds to decide. Any later and he will be likely unable to avoid the pitch. Does that make sense?
Obviously the batter has slightly more time to react if a slower pitch (curve, changeup, etc) is thrown.
FoxDad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If it is true that it only takes 0.4 second for a 90mph fastball to reach home plate after it leaves the pitchers hand, how much time does the batter REALLY have to give an "effort to avoid" if he spent most of the 0.4 seconds determining the path the ball will take?
I recall reading an article (think it was called Anatomy of a Pitch or something like that) where the batter had to make up his mind to swing (or not) in the time it took the pitch to travel 14 feet. A 90 mph fastball is traveling 132 ft/sec so it takes about 0.45 seconds to get to home plate. If I have figured this correctly the batter has just a tad more than 0.1 seconds to decide. Any later and he will be likely unable to avoid the pitch. Does that make sense?
Obviously the batter has slightly more time to react if a slower pitch (curve, changeup, etc) is thrown.
He has "a tad more than 0.1 seconds to decide", oh, okay, well at least he has a while.
FWP posted:Now hold on one second umps... it's hypocritical to say umps don't make the rules etc. and yet every one of you will admit to calling an 'appropriate ' strike zone rather than the strike zone laid out in the rule book. Pick a lane please. What about balks that are balks by rule which are let go 'because they are not deceptive in nature'. There is a lot of 'customization' of the rule book by individual umpires so why is this suddenly different? Maybe the rules committee should make it a point of emphasis to stop calling the shin high strike 8 inches outside. Personally I think they had it right with using the batters box. The hitter should own that space. You want to move the box off the plate a few inches fine. But that box should belong to the hitter. And I am a pitching guy!
I addressed the strike zone issue in the aforementioned link--not to mention you're not accurate about what you complain.
Your balk question is addressed in the very rules that you reference...there is a rule comment to keep in mind the intent of the rule and not call technical or borderline balks that are not deceptive.
Buzzard05 posted:Matt13 posted:Buzzard05 posted:I have seen this call made so much this season and it is total BS.
They started the increased enforcement of that rule several years ago when all the college players were wearing all of the "body armor" and actually leaning out into pitches.
Umps need to stop "overthinking" things.
Sigh...I've already explained what happened with the rule on this site. It's not the umpires.
Sigh....I went back and read your post....
So what do you constitute as "where the batter didn't move" or "permits the pitch to hit him"?
Because I have seen several big curveballs that don't break, and sliders that "back up" where the hitter stands his ground waiting on the break and it doesn't happen. At the last moment they turn away from the pitch so as to not get drilled where they can get injured....only to have the ump keep them at the plate.
Are they supposed to go diving out of the box the instant they realize the pitch is inside...even if it ends up bending back in for a strike (which I have also seen)?
If he permits the pitch to hit him, he does. If he doesn't, he doesn't. "Permit" means a conscious decision. That's where we have to use all available evidence and decide. There's no set criteria, there's no yes-or-no matrix that leads us to a decision.