Of course there are many variables and no certainties, but what would you choose?
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Interesting results.
So why the big push to play D1 ball? I'd like to know. Any comments?
So why the big push to play D1 ball? I'd like to know. Any comments?
I always thought of my son as a D1 player (and still do)...but I would not have traded last year starting at a D3 as a freshman for the world. After his soph HS experience of sitting on varsity instead of playing on JV, I learned that it is always better to play.
Wow! I am the only one who voted D1 so far? (Of course, I didn't ask my son this question. Perhaps he'd feel differently, but I don't think so. He transferred from a private high school, where he was the starting SS as a freshman, to the best public hs program in our area, where he sat most of the time as a junior behind talented seniors, and he's still glad he made the switch.)
Trying to look at things objectively (and not considering "prestige" factors), D1's oftentimes offer training and development that is superior to what smaller colleges offer. For example, at several top JUCO's in Texas, weight training is "optional" and I'm told that many JUCO players aren't diligent in this area since they are given a choice. Also, D1's give you an opportunity to play high-level opponents. (Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule at every level.)
Also, I think there's a lot to be said for the character development that comes with not starting as a freshman -- and even as a sophomore. You learn patience, diligence, and perseverance and strive to be the best player you can be because you don't have a "lock" on starting.
Trying to look at things objectively (and not considering "prestige" factors), D1's oftentimes offer training and development that is superior to what smaller colleges offer. For example, at several top JUCO's in Texas, weight training is "optional" and I'm told that many JUCO players aren't diligent in this area since they are given a choice. Also, D1's give you an opportunity to play high-level opponents. (Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule at every level.)
Also, I think there's a lot to be said for the character development that comes with not starting as a freshman -- and even as a sophomore. You learn patience, diligence, and perseverance and strive to be the best player you can be because you don't have a "lock" on starting.
Mine would probably picked the D-1 option, but only if he was going to play, and play a lot. He would not sit on the bench very well for long, it would kill him. Since having him sign with a smaller D-2 and knowing how the coaches expect to utilize him, I (we) have had absolutely no regret.
After you get done explaining to family members that a 100% scholarship is not very common for a postion player, and that he would probably sit a lot at large state school, everything else falls in place.
After you get done explaining to family members that a 100% scholarship is not very common for a postion player, and that he would probably sit a lot at large state school, everything else falls in place.
Infield08, let me present a differing view on some of items mentioned which do not relate to playing time.
One factor you have mentioned is the advantage DI players normally have with access to superior strength, conditioning and nutrition assistance.
Others mention access to tutors, study hall, note takers and academic support that exists at DI's.
Still others talk about superior travel, equipment provided, etc.
Despite all of that, our son's experience leads me to think those may not be "necessary or required" and, for some, can even be a "crutch."
At smaller programs, the players still have strength, conditioning and need to to be careful about nutrition. But they do it on their own, as a team, usually headed by the captains, with coaching direction and encouragement. When you get up at 5am to work out, you do it from commitment and dedication for what you are doing, not because the strength and conditioning coach will know you didn't, and have you pay the price.
In the classroom, they are just as responsible as every other student for their performance, and cannot have any additional assistance. They learn to manage time allocation, classroom and academic committment/requirements, as part of being a student who does not receive any special assistance, tutor, study hall, note taker, etc.
At the DIII our son attended, they have a top athletic program, that offers 18 sports, but those student athletes graduate at a level of 86% and almost all do it within 4 or 4 1/2 years.
I have always felt that the college experience is one where a teen learns to become self sufficient so that they can then be equipped to assume and succeed in the rigors of business and life. Personally, I feel the "rigors" of the DIII student/athletic life, where you graduate in 4 years, truly teaches, in fact, demands, that you become self sufficient, resourceful and productive in almost every way.
Since our daughter was a DI athlete, I fully understand the demands placed upon them and the talent and effort/dedication required to compete.
But I also wonder if it is all is truly necessary?
One factor you have mentioned is the advantage DI players normally have with access to superior strength, conditioning and nutrition assistance.
Others mention access to tutors, study hall, note takers and academic support that exists at DI's.
Still others talk about superior travel, equipment provided, etc.
Despite all of that, our son's experience leads me to think those may not be "necessary or required" and, for some, can even be a "crutch."
At smaller programs, the players still have strength, conditioning and need to to be careful about nutrition. But they do it on their own, as a team, usually headed by the captains, with coaching direction and encouragement. When you get up at 5am to work out, you do it from commitment and dedication for what you are doing, not because the strength and conditioning coach will know you didn't, and have you pay the price.
In the classroom, they are just as responsible as every other student for their performance, and cannot have any additional assistance. They learn to manage time allocation, classroom and academic committment/requirements, as part of being a student who does not receive any special assistance, tutor, study hall, note taker, etc.
At the DIII our son attended, they have a top athletic program, that offers 18 sports, but those student athletes graduate at a level of 86% and almost all do it within 4 or 4 1/2 years.
I have always felt that the college experience is one where a teen learns to become self sufficient so that they can then be equipped to assume and succeed in the rigors of business and life. Personally, I feel the "rigors" of the DIII student/athletic life, where you graduate in 4 years, truly teaches, in fact, demands, that you become self sufficient, resourceful and productive in almost every way.
Since our daughter was a DI athlete, I fully understand the demands placed upon them and the talent and effort/dedication required to compete.
But I also wonder if it is all is truly necessary?
my son picked a good D2 over several D1s and has no regrets as of now, and is really looking foward to playing there the next 3 or 4 years
Make the choice that that feels right to you and do not look back
A few assorted comments....
infielddad, your comments have great merit. Points well taken.
TRhit, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment.
For my son, sitting the majority of last year gave him an even deeper appreciation and love for the game and his work ethic greatly increased as he realized what he was up against. He began to value the opportunity to start in a way that my husband and I had never seen before. I remember one game when we were way ahead and the coach sent son and all of the other juniors in during the 6th inning. Son was raring to go the entire time, but did not see any action in the field. When the game ended, he came over to us and growled in a very determined way, "I wanted a ball to come to me SO BAD!!!!!!"
infielddad, your comments have great merit. Points well taken.
TRhit, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment.
For my son, sitting the majority of last year gave him an even deeper appreciation and love for the game and his work ethic greatly increased as he realized what he was up against. He began to value the opportunity to start in a way that my husband and I had never seen before. I remember one game when we were way ahead and the coach sent son and all of the other juniors in during the 6th inning. Son was raring to go the entire time, but did not see any action in the field. When the game ended, he came over to us and growled in a very determined way, "I wanted a ball to come to me SO BAD!!!!!!"
I don't know the answer for the players. Might be a player-by-player thing?
But for the vast majority of parents I have come to know well with kids in college ball, they are happiest when their son is playing a lot no matter what the division level or the team.
But its not about us parents other than to advise our sons of the ramifications of choosing a big D1 versus a smaller program. From then on, its their life to live and hopefully love.
But for the vast majority of parents I have come to know well with kids in college ball, they are happiest when their son is playing a lot no matter what the division level or the team.
But its not about us parents other than to advise our sons of the ramifications of choosing a big D1 versus a smaller program. From then on, its their life to live and hopefully love.
When we started down this road, all indications from what son wanted out of college were pointing to DIII; chiefly a smallish student body and a very strong liberal arts foundation. Living overseas most of the year, we have never been swept up in the "Gotta Go DI" parent/player point of view that seems so prevalent (despite the poll results, oddly enough!).
Happened to then read Loren Pope's "Forty Colleges That Change Lives" and that furthered our interest in the smaller liberal arts schools. And, of course, baseball has to be there.
Two of the schools that are most interested in him and to which he's applied appear in Pope's book. I think the right fit will be found!
Happened to then read Loren Pope's "Forty Colleges That Change Lives" and that furthered our interest in the smaller liberal arts schools. And, of course, baseball has to be there.
Two of the schools that are most interested in him and to which he's applied appear in Pope's book. I think the right fit will be found!
I voted the D1 route. I believe that working with the type of talent and coaches that go along with the top D1 programs puts these guys ahead in the long run. I believe the underclassmen work had to live up to the expectations you have for teams at this level. I'm not saying that kids don't work hard at the lower levels. But when kids don't have to work out as Infield08 pointed out they usually won't. I can't imiagine that as an option at the D1 level!
The way the poll was put together it implies significant playing time after two years. If the question was get little playing time at a D1 for 4 years or start at a smaller college for 3 years, but not start as a freshman then my answer would be different.
I look at sitting a couple years to play a better brand of ball for a couple years as being a good trade. If you sit 4 years then you sacrificed and didn't get anything in return.
I look at sitting a couple years to play a better brand of ball for a couple years as being a good trade. If you sit 4 years then you sacrificed and didn't get anything in return.
Here is my opinion.
The most important thing in becoming a better player and developing your ability is... PLAYING the GAMES! Nothing can possibly replace that!
I know there are several who became starters as Juniors, but most didn't sit and watch for two years. In most cases if a player is not playing some kind of significant role by their sophomore year, there will be a freshman recruited to take their place.
Not saying there's anything wrong with setting on the bench, someone has to do it. But if there are aspirations of going on to the next level (as most who enter DI colleges), sitting out two years is a big stumbling block. Your first year of playing is your draft eligible year... that is tough.
My opinion... unless playing baseball is not that important or financial reasons... go where you have the best chance to play and develop.
I respect other opinions though.
The most important thing in becoming a better player and developing your ability is... PLAYING the GAMES! Nothing can possibly replace that!
I know there are several who became starters as Juniors, but most didn't sit and watch for two years. In most cases if a player is not playing some kind of significant role by their sophomore year, there will be a freshman recruited to take their place.
Not saying there's anything wrong with setting on the bench, someone has to do it. But if there are aspirations of going on to the next level (as most who enter DI colleges), sitting out two years is a big stumbling block. Your first year of playing is your draft eligible year... that is tough.
My opinion... unless playing baseball is not that important or financial reasons... go where you have the best chance to play and develop.
I respect other opinions though.
I think another equation, not in this question, is the level of D-1. You can also ask the question would a boy rather sit for 2 years at UNC or start as a freshman at Rutgers. (This is not a knock on RU). A kid can sit at a national power D1 and start as a freshman at some of the lower level, in comparison, D1s.
In my mind there are several layers division schools that can accomodate several layers of D1 players.
In my mind there are several layers division schools that can accomodate several layers of D1 players.
PG - it is hard to argue with your logic. This seems like an interesting topic so I'll make some opposite points for the sake of discussion only. I agree with what you are saying however.
There are more reasons than prestige or better facilities for attending the D1. A coach may tell a kid we see you behind an All-American for the next two years but see you progressing into that role someday with proper conditioning and physical maturity. Plus, you will have the opportunity to develop behind some of the best and you will know/learn what it takes to also be in that category.
He may be able to promise placement into an elite summer league so the entire year would not be wasted. If some kid redshirts his first year, he may in fact be starting by his "sophmore" year. A good example of this type of patience was Doug Hogan at Clemson who finally became starter as a junior and was drafted last year in the 36th round.
I think an important reason why kids and parents may desire the D1 route is exposure. They may feel their chances of being seen under the right conditions by pro scouts is better and are thus willing to risk some playing time. Is it possible to go the small college route and still be drafted? Of course, but there may be a perception that it is easier via the D1 route.
There are more reasons than prestige or better facilities for attending the D1. A coach may tell a kid we see you behind an All-American for the next two years but see you progressing into that role someday with proper conditioning and physical maturity. Plus, you will have the opportunity to develop behind some of the best and you will know/learn what it takes to also be in that category.
He may be able to promise placement into an elite summer league so the entire year would not be wasted. If some kid redshirts his first year, he may in fact be starting by his "sophmore" year. A good example of this type of patience was Doug Hogan at Clemson who finally became starter as a junior and was drafted last year in the 36th round.
I think an important reason why kids and parents may desire the D1 route is exposure. They may feel their chances of being seen under the right conditions by pro scouts is better and are thus willing to risk some playing time. Is it possible to go the small college route and still be drafted? Of course, but there may be a perception that it is easier via the D1 route.
I vote wherever he can get a good education and play baseball, he at this time would vote for a bigger school. Doesnt have to be D1 according to him but larger than a lot of the D3 that have looked at him (2000-3000) too stifling for him is what he says. he wants more of the college experience.We visited a D3 and the training was excellent, school was excellent , great all the way around but too small physically didnt feel like a college experience. So if he ends up at a biger school will he play? time will tell. sometimes players want diffrent things then the parents. we have discussed this before on this website.I hope he continues to get beter at the JC next year and possibly the year after and gets the chance to go to a school that feels like the right fit.
I concur with PGStaff here with respect to the developing player intent upon playing professionally. However, I have to add the caveat that if the choice fails to take the academic side of the equation into consideration sufficiently, you can end up having a very dissatisfied student on your hands while he's in college. Add to that the fact that factors completely outside of his control can interfere with his professional aspirations, and you have all the more reason to give appropriate weight to the academic aspect.
An additional observation for the parents of pitchers: My son chose to join the most challenging college staff he'd been given the opportunity to join; despite the fact that it meant that he'd almost assuredly go from a starting role to relief duty as a freshman. He'd had a number of offers from programs that had assured him that he'd start his freshman year.
As it turned out, he relieved frequently on weekends and started a number of mid-week games during his freshman season. Today, he would tell you that the experience of relieving that first year helped him grow immensely as a pitcher. There are few more challenging roles than coming in on short notice against tough competition. Later in his college career, he assumed the consistent role of starter; but, that time as a reliever helped him a lot.
An additional observation for the parents of pitchers: My son chose to join the most challenging college staff he'd been given the opportunity to join; despite the fact that it meant that he'd almost assuredly go from a starting role to relief duty as a freshman. He'd had a number of offers from programs that had assured him that he'd start his freshman year.
As it turned out, he relieved frequently on weekends and started a number of mid-week games during his freshman season. Today, he would tell you that the experience of relieving that first year helped him grow immensely as a pitcher. There are few more challenging roles than coming in on short notice against tough competition. Later in his college career, he assumed the consistent role of starter; but, that time as a reliever helped him a lot.
This is a good topic and there are some really great thoughts for presenting both sides of the D1 vs. smaller college. fillsfan made a great point, there are differnt levels within the D1 level and that has a lot to do with responses.
CD brings up some good points. But Doug Hogan may not be the best example. Having a father and brother (who also attended the program) who played pro ball on the milb level, he understood what his chances might be or not be, so he was extremely patient and worked under a good teacher. College was his main focus. I don't think playing pro ball was as important as becoming and remaining a leader for his college team. He is though, the perfect example of how maturing and extremely hard work will bring success.
I am going to echo what Prepster has mentioned. Going from a HS starter to a reliever and closer in college and then weekday starter (until he was a junior) helped ours to also grow as a pitcher. That's also how it is done where he attended. You releive and close on wekends to get used to teh bigger stage and start on weekdays to wrok on yuor game. I do beleive for pitchers, becoming a starter when you first begin might not always be in your best interest, no matter where you attend. However, being able to put time in as a pitcher is very important, not a few innings a season. If a pitcher doesn't win a role where he may put in valued growth time on the mound, redshirt, getting stronger and working to improve your stuff should not be considered a bad option. My sons two freshman roomates made the decision to redshirt knowing after fall practice they would put in very little time on the mound. It's also healthier (less innings) than coming in and putting in 100 innings every season. Some can do it without sustaining injury, others can't.
I do have to agree with a lot of PG's thoughts, expecially for a position player. You cannot develop into the player you want to be unless you play. Playing actual games is quite a bit more challenging than practice. fanofgame brings up another good point, my son, as a pitcher, if possible, wanted to attend the D1 with all the bells and whistles, not just for baseball, if he was going to turn down pro opportunities out of HS, college life was very important to him. It's very hard to begin your journey as a junior if you want to get drafted (in a round that makes sense to leave college) as a junior. If that is what your future aspirations may be, if not it might not matter.
CD brings up some good points. But Doug Hogan may not be the best example. Having a father and brother (who also attended the program) who played pro ball on the milb level, he understood what his chances might be or not be, so he was extremely patient and worked under a good teacher. College was his main focus. I don't think playing pro ball was as important as becoming and remaining a leader for his college team. He is though, the perfect example of how maturing and extremely hard work will bring success.
I am going to echo what Prepster has mentioned. Going from a HS starter to a reliever and closer in college and then weekday starter (until he was a junior) helped ours to also grow as a pitcher. That's also how it is done where he attended. You releive and close on wekends to get used to teh bigger stage and start on weekdays to wrok on yuor game. I do beleive for pitchers, becoming a starter when you first begin might not always be in your best interest, no matter where you attend. However, being able to put time in as a pitcher is very important, not a few innings a season. If a pitcher doesn't win a role where he may put in valued growth time on the mound, redshirt, getting stronger and working to improve your stuff should not be considered a bad option. My sons two freshman roomates made the decision to redshirt knowing after fall practice they would put in very little time on the mound. It's also healthier (less innings) than coming in and putting in 100 innings every season. Some can do it without sustaining injury, others can't.
I do have to agree with a lot of PG's thoughts, expecially for a position player. You cannot develop into the player you want to be unless you play. Playing actual games is quite a bit more challenging than practice. fanofgame brings up another good point, my son, as a pitcher, if possible, wanted to attend the D1 with all the bells and whistles, not just for baseball, if he was going to turn down pro opportunities out of HS, college life was very important to him. It's very hard to begin your journey as a junior if you want to get drafted (in a round that makes sense to leave college) as a junior. If that is what your future aspirations may be, if not it might not matter.
I don't think you can answer this question from a baseball only prospective. My son went through this analysis, he chose not to accept the scholy to the D1 knowing that he would likely sit. He is very happy with the school (D3) that he is at and the program that he is a part of.
However, that does not mean that he would make the same decision if it were available to him today.
For a kid that wants to play baseball, it goes beyond sitting for a year or two to having the resources to "compete."
What I mean is having facilities that are inferior to what you get at a larger program (lack of training facilies, conditioning coaches, batting facilities). Also the realization that there is no support or assistance on the academic side (no early registration, tutors, assitance in getting professors that work with athletes). The realization that the kids and parents have to fund the program if you want even the basics met to field a team (travel money, equipment and clothing). And ultimatly the realization that it will be very difficult to finish in 4 years which tranlates into at least one semester and maybe more which will need to be paid for. When you have to endure a 20 hour bus ride to and from your games the weekend before finals, you question whether D3's have the resources which are needed to effectively compete.
There are trade-off's and part of really answering the question goes beyond getting on the field and playing it also has a big impact on what kind of experience that your kid gets.
However, that does not mean that he would make the same decision if it were available to him today.
For a kid that wants to play baseball, it goes beyond sitting for a year or two to having the resources to "compete."
What I mean is having facilities that are inferior to what you get at a larger program (lack of training facilies, conditioning coaches, batting facilities). Also the realization that there is no support or assistance on the academic side (no early registration, tutors, assitance in getting professors that work with athletes). The realization that the kids and parents have to fund the program if you want even the basics met to field a team (travel money, equipment and clothing). And ultimatly the realization that it will be very difficult to finish in 4 years which tranlates into at least one semester and maybe more which will need to be paid for. When you have to endure a 20 hour bus ride to and from your games the weekend before finals, you question whether D3's have the resources which are needed to effectively compete.
There are trade-off's and part of really answering the question goes beyond getting on the field and playing it also has a big impact on what kind of experience that your kid gets.
We saw a lot of weight rooms. Some were much nicer than others. The funny thing though...they all had weights. We saw many batting cages and tunnels, some indoor with A.C. some covered with sheet metal and salvaged lights. Funny thing is they both work just fine for keeping your swing smooth. We saw stadiums and we saw bleechers, but my Son does not want to sit in either. He wants to be on the field.
He gave up the opportunity to live the dream of playing in Omaha on TV one day, to live the dream of college baseball on the field as a freshman every day. He gave up the Oakley glasses, and the bat sponsorship, but he can swing whatever stick he wants.
When it comes down to it all he really wants to do is play baseball and get dirty. The other stuff is nice, but not required to enjoy the game, improve his skill and advance to the next level.
He gave up the opportunity to live the dream of playing in Omaha on TV one day, to live the dream of college baseball on the field as a freshman every day. He gave up the Oakley glasses, and the bat sponsorship, but he can swing whatever stick he wants.
When it comes down to it all he really wants to do is play baseball and get dirty. The other stuff is nice, but not required to enjoy the game, improve his skill and advance to the next level.
ILVBB,
I am truly surprised aboutthose observations.
The program in question isn't funded by the parents. Quite the opposite, it receives significant funding from the University/Athletic Dep't and the amounts have increased considerably since 2000 with the success of the program.
However, as with most DIII's, and actually a lot of DI's, there are fundraising aspects to add additional revenue to support the players.
I personally know one Northern CA DI program that had parents involved in all types of efforts to raise substantial revenue for that program because most of their sports dollars went to football.
With regard to academic support, I think it could be a question of the glass half full. As I posted before, my sound found the academics extremely rigorous, he graduated in 4 years, agreed that the baseball travel made Spring a challenge, but found you could take as many as 17 units in the Spring and still compete. He still feels being able to manage the challenges he faced were positives, even though they were very hard at the time.
I would also point out that the University of Michigan did not/maybe still does not, give athletes preference for registration and some other academic considerations.
I think you are aware our son had options to transfer during the summers before his junior and senior year. They were very attractive options.
He chose to stay in the academic/baseball environment of which you post, and remains 100% convinced of his choice.
I am sorry some of the challenges confronted at the DIII level appear troublesome. They are not unique to DIII.
One thing for sure though, those coaches do everything in their ability to provide a DI experience when you are on the field, when you are scouted, when you are placed in the summer, and most of all, when you need a friend.
I am truly surprised aboutthose observations.
The program in question isn't funded by the parents. Quite the opposite, it receives significant funding from the University/Athletic Dep't and the amounts have increased considerably since 2000 with the success of the program.
However, as with most DIII's, and actually a lot of DI's, there are fundraising aspects to add additional revenue to support the players.
I personally know one Northern CA DI program that had parents involved in all types of efforts to raise substantial revenue for that program because most of their sports dollars went to football.
With regard to academic support, I think it could be a question of the glass half full. As I posted before, my sound found the academics extremely rigorous, he graduated in 4 years, agreed that the baseball travel made Spring a challenge, but found you could take as many as 17 units in the Spring and still compete. He still feels being able to manage the challenges he faced were positives, even though they were very hard at the time.
I would also point out that the University of Michigan did not/maybe still does not, give athletes preference for registration and some other academic considerations.
I think you are aware our son had options to transfer during the summers before his junior and senior year. They were very attractive options.
He chose to stay in the academic/baseball environment of which you post, and remains 100% convinced of his choice.
I am sorry some of the challenges confronted at the DIII level appear troublesome. They are not unique to DIII.
One thing for sure though, those coaches do everything in their ability to provide a DI experience when you are on the field, when you are scouted, when you are placed in the summer, and most of all, when you need a friend.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
He gave up the opportunity to live the dream of playing in Omaha on TV one day, to live the dream of college baseball on the field as a freshman every day. He gave up the Oakley glasses, and the bat sponsorship, but he can swing whatever stick he wants.
Your son did not really give up that opportunity ...yet.
I know the choices that your son had and the opportunities that he turned down. But I feel he made a very wise decision. He will get much more valuable playing time on a smaller stage as a freshman,sophmore that might turn into playing time later on.
Not all top D1 programs get Oakleys.
ILVBB and INF,
I liked both of your posts both sides has great merit.
Not all schools are equal in facilities, training, academic support, etc, don't care which division it is. I have been to a mid D1 school, that plays in a good conferece to watch games on several occassions and except for the swaying palm trees, I don't see anything attractive about the facilities. In fact most of my son's friends who began there (quite a few) are no longer playing there, for reasons I won't get into except for the fact they were not very happy.
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
I vote wherever he can get a good education and play baseball, he at this time would vote for a bigger school. Doesnt have to be D1 according to him but larger than a lot of the D3 that have looked at him (2000-3000) too stifling for him is what he says. he wants more of the college experience.We visited a D3 and the training was excellent, school was excellent , great all the way around but too small physically didnt feel like a college experience. So if he ends up at a biger school will he play? time will tell. sometimes players want diffrent things then the parents. we have discussed this before on this website.I hope he continues to get beter at the JC next year and possibly the year after and gets the chance to go to a school that feels like the right fit.
Fan, you gotta read the intro of "Forty Colleges That Change Lives".
infielddad
My comments were of a general nature and not specifically pointed at my son's school. There is a real economic difference in how schools treat there sports programs. The items that I listed in my previous post exsist to a degree everywhere. The extent that the impact any given program changes the experience at each school.
As to academics, we (my son and we as his parents) have had to adjust to a tuff academic envirorment. For him that is the realization that he will likely not graduate in four years and play baseball. In that he finds great pride and joy in playing baseball, there will be an economic cost for the privilage. This is a factor that people making a choice need to consider.
My son is quite content (actually very happy) where he is, he has a great deal of respect for his coaches and teammates. He has already had the opportunity to transfer, yet he wants to stay where he is (not just for baseball, but for his life in his new home). However, it does not mean he has learned that there are certain pro's and con's with any given program.
My point to those that will follow is to look at the experience beyond the hype of "it's D1" or "more playing time at a D3." Look into the reality of what the experience will likely be, make good choices and find joy in whereever you end up.
My comments were of a general nature and not specifically pointed at my son's school. There is a real economic difference in how schools treat there sports programs. The items that I listed in my previous post exsist to a degree everywhere. The extent that the impact any given program changes the experience at each school.
As to academics, we (my son and we as his parents) have had to adjust to a tuff academic envirorment. For him that is the realization that he will likely not graduate in four years and play baseball. In that he finds great pride and joy in playing baseball, there will be an economic cost for the privilage. This is a factor that people making a choice need to consider.
My son is quite content (actually very happy) where he is, he has a great deal of respect for his coaches and teammates. He has already had the opportunity to transfer, yet he wants to stay where he is (not just for baseball, but for his life in his new home). However, it does not mean he has learned that there are certain pro's and con's with any given program.
My point to those that will follow is to look at the experience beyond the hype of "it's D1" or "more playing time at a D3." Look into the reality of what the experience will likely be, make good choices and find joy in whereever you end up.
Indeed. I have found that to maintain any kind of $$ award from a DIII (and maybe other levels as well?), students are required to maintain a certain gpa at all times. HOWEVER, these vary. At one school that is recruitng my son, it's a 3.0. At two others, it's 2.5. And at one more - it's a 2.0
One needs to really look carefully at this because if you end up at a school where you can't handle the workload, not to mention the pressure, required to maintain whatever gpa is demanded, your experience is not going to be a pleasant one.
Ya gotta know your kid and your kid has to know his heart. From there, both player and parent need to be very realistic when making the final choice.
One needs to really look carefully at this because if you end up at a school where you can't handle the workload, not to mention the pressure, required to maintain whatever gpa is demanded, your experience is not going to be a pleasant one.
Ya gotta know your kid and your kid has to know his heart. From there, both player and parent need to be very realistic when making the final choice.
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quote:One needs to really look carefully at this because if you end up at a school where you can't handle the workload, not to mention the pressure, required to maintain whatever gpa is demanded, your experience is not going to be a pleasant one.
Ya gotta know your kid and your kid has to know his heart. From there, both player and parent need to be very realistic when making the final choice.
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I think that about sums it all up, no matter where you choose.
quote:One needs to really look carefully at this because if you end up at a school where you can't handle the workload, not to mention the pressure, required to maintain whatever gpa is demanded, your experience is not going to be a pleasant one.
Ya gotta know your kid and your kid has to know his heart. From there, both player and parent need to be very realistic when making the final choice.
I think that about sums it all up, no matter where you choose.
Obviously, there are many factors which can determine whether a certain school is "the right fit" for each individual. I have played at both the D-1 and JUCO levels, and I have plenty of experience with friends who have competed at D-2's and D-3's. And truthfully, there are many very good players at every collegiate level. Talent wise, hundreds of players in other levels could compete at D-1 schools. And there are many D-2's, 3's, and JUCO's in the country that could beat quite a few D-1 schools on a given day.....
But, as a general rule, no matter what the division, each player will have to prove themselves worthy of getting significant playing time. And even though game time experience is important, when it comes down to it, each player will have to practice and work hard (outside of games) to improve during the years they are competing (and the majority of that effort and improvement comes with what you do outside of game time play).
Sure, there are some people that just love the game and simply want to play right away, regardless of the level of competition( and without worrying about anything other than just wanting to continue to play after high school).
But, to explain my personal situation and how I feel in regards to the question.....I plan on persuing a professional career. And that is where I am focusing my future goals( which are a little more long term than just wanting to get playing time on a team). So, a big part of what I consider important is the level of competition. If I'm going to prove myself, I want to do it against the best possible opponents(hitters) out there.....
(The following is just a generality about the depth of talent between levels...) So,I hope no one takes this post as me saying that D-2/3's or JUCO's have bad competition...because that's not what I'm getting at.......So, personally, if I had the choice to pitch against a team with either 1-3 very good hitters (D-2/3), or against a team of 7-9 very good hitters (A top D-1).....I would choose the more difficult lineup.
I know many people might think that it is absolutely necessary to "start as a freshman" to improve your skills a whole lot.......But, if that were always the case, then none of the incomming freshman that sit the bench for 2 years at the big D-1's would ever improve.....But, we all know that many of those kids eventually become top draft picks by the time they graduate, despite not having played much in their earlier years in college.
Obviously, it is an individual's own decision of what level they should plat at. But, I think that if it is an option, getting the chance to "play against the best", should definitely be a big determinant when choosing at what level to compete.
There are many variables in making such a decision, but, in my position, I would want to play at a big D-1 (if not for the sole fact of when looking back years later I could say "I hung in there with the best college players in the country").
But, no matter what collegiate level we play at, if we are working really hard (at whatever level it might be), we will dramatically improve even if we get a lesser playing time for a year or 2 than what some people might think would be "ideal"......just my personal opinion.
But, as a general rule, no matter what the division, each player will have to prove themselves worthy of getting significant playing time. And even though game time experience is important, when it comes down to it, each player will have to practice and work hard (outside of games) to improve during the years they are competing (and the majority of that effort and improvement comes with what you do outside of game time play).
Sure, there are some people that just love the game and simply want to play right away, regardless of the level of competition( and without worrying about anything other than just wanting to continue to play after high school).
But, to explain my personal situation and how I feel in regards to the question.....I plan on persuing a professional career. And that is where I am focusing my future goals( which are a little more long term than just wanting to get playing time on a team). So, a big part of what I consider important is the level of competition. If I'm going to prove myself, I want to do it against the best possible opponents(hitters) out there.....
(The following is just a generality about the depth of talent between levels...) So,I hope no one takes this post as me saying that D-2/3's or JUCO's have bad competition...because that's not what I'm getting at.......So, personally, if I had the choice to pitch against a team with either 1-3 very good hitters (D-2/3), or against a team of 7-9 very good hitters (A top D-1).....I would choose the more difficult lineup.
I know many people might think that it is absolutely necessary to "start as a freshman" to improve your skills a whole lot.......But, if that were always the case, then none of the incomming freshman that sit the bench for 2 years at the big D-1's would ever improve.....But, we all know that many of those kids eventually become top draft picks by the time they graduate, despite not having played much in their earlier years in college.
Obviously, it is an individual's own decision of what level they should plat at. But, I think that if it is an option, getting the chance to "play against the best", should definitely be a big determinant when choosing at what level to compete.
There are many variables in making such a decision, but, in my position, I would want to play at a big D-1 (if not for the sole fact of when looking back years later I could say "I hung in there with the best college players in the country").
But, no matter what collegiate level we play at, if we are working really hard (at whatever level it might be), we will dramatically improve even if we get a lesser playing time for a year or 2 than what some people might think would be "ideal"......just my personal opinion.
Question:
If there were a way for you to know the answer, which of the following would you choose?
Choices:
0 DI - Little or no playing time for two years
0 Smaller college - Start as a freshman
--------------------------------------------------------------------
0 The best education. Baseball will take care of itself.
If there were a way for you to know the answer, which of the following would you choose?
Choices:
0 DI - Little or no playing time for two years
0 Smaller college - Start as a freshman
--------------------------------------------------------------------
0 The best education. Baseball will take care of itself.
quote:Originally posted by coolhand3030:
Obviously, there are many factors which can determine whether a certain school is "the right fit" for each individual. I have played at both the D-1 and JUCO levels, and I have plenty of experience with friends who have competed at D-2's and D-3's. And truthfully, there are many very good players at every collegiate level. Talent wise, hundreds of players in other levels could compete at D-1 schools. And there are many D-2's, 3's, and JUCO's in the country that could beat quite a few D-1 schools on a given day.....
But, as a general rule, no matter what the division, each player will have to prove themselves worthy of getting significant playing time. And even though game time experience is important, when it comes down to it, each player will have to practice and work hard (outside of games) to improve during the years they are competing (and the majority of that effort and improvement comes with what you do outside of game time play).
Sure, there are some people that just love the game and simply want to play right away, regardless of the level of competition( and without worrying about anything other than just wanting to continue to play after high school).
But, to explain my personal situation and how I feel in regards to the question.....I plan on persuing a professional career. And that is where I am focusing my future goals( which are a little more long term than just wanting to get playing time on a team). So, a big part of what I consider important is the level of competition. If I'm going to prove myself, I want to do it against the best possible opponents(hitters) out there.....
(The following is just a generality about the depth of talent between levels...) So,I hope no one takes this post as me saying that D-2/3's or JUCO's have bad competition...because that's not what I'm getting at.......So, personally, if I had the choice to pitch against a team with either 1-3 very good hitters (D-2/3), or against a team of 7-9 very good hitters (A top D-1).....I would choose the more difficult lineup.
I know many people might think that it is absolutely necessary to "start as a freshman" to improve your skills a whole lot.......But, if that were always the case, then none of the incomming freshman that sit the bench for 2 years at the big D-1's would ever improve.....But, we all know that many of those kids eventually become top draft picks by the time they graduate, despite not having played much in their earlier years in college.
Obviously, it is an individual's own decision of what level they should plat at. But, I think that if it is an option, getting the chance to "play against the best", should definitely be a big determinant when choosing at what level to compete.
There are many variables in making such a decision, but, in my position, I would want to play at a big D-1 (if not for the sole fact of when looking back years later I could say "I hung in there with the best college players in the country").
But, no matter what collegiate level we play at, if we are working really hard (at whatever level it might be), we will dramatically improve even if we get a lesser playing time for a year or 2 than what some people might think would be "ideal"......just my personal opinion.
coolhand3030 - welecome to the hsbbweb!
Obviously, your writing skills indicate you are indeed college educated. Beyond that, if you were my son, I would support your decisions 100%. You have a reasonable approach to things that seem well thought out. You also seem like a competitor who is willing to deal with the consequences should they not work out in your favor. I have a hunch though they will work out
quote:But, if that were always the case, then none of the incomming freshman that sit the bench for 2 years at the big D-1's would ever improve.....But, we all know that many of those kids eventually become top draft picks by the time they graduate, despite not having played much in their earlier years in college.
Coolhand,
I would agree with most everything you've said except for the above... Can the guy who doesn't play in the games develop as well as the guy playing in the games? I know it’s possible, but in most cases I’d favor the guy playing in the games.
We follow this stuff fairly closely and to be honest, most of the players who become top draft picks did not sit out for two years. Most of the top draft picks played a role as a sophomore if not as a freshman. There can be a benefit to a freshman or sophomore pitcher having a smaller work load. But no game action is too small IMO unless the pitcher is injured.
I don't think anyone here could name 10 “top” draft picks (in history) who sat on the bench for two years in high school or college. I'm willing to be corrected if someone can name them..
You and many others have brought up some great points and everyone understands the major reason for attending college is the education and the entire college experience. My opinions are based solely on baseball, though.
To be clear, it's always been my belief that age 18-19 are the two most important developmental years for a baseball player. Of course this can vary from one player to the next, but there are a ton of players in Juco ball who get drafted or go on to DI colleges. Some of these same players might have sat the bench had they gone directly to a DI out of high school.
Once a player is drafted, withstanding injury, sitting on the bench is reserved for those who are not considered prospects. That's because the people running the show understand you develop by playing the game. There really is no replacement for playing the games.
I can understand why many would still prefer the challenge of DI. Or even the college experience at a big school. There is nothing wrong with that unless you want to be a Major League player and you get stuck on the bench. If you do, there's always a chance, but each year you don't play the game your chances diminish. There is no practice that can replace playing the games. No one can teach a player better than the game teaches a player.
I have to say, we know several young kids who went in over their head. With each new recruiting class they could see the writing on the wall. Many would transfer (now that is not as appealing if transferring DI to DI) some would just hang it up. Some finally got on the field and made it all work.
Lots of good reasons why people do what they do. I would never tell anyone what they should do. I have told many that if its about baseball, go where you are going to play! Unfortunately that is an unknown in many cases.
ClevelandDad, thanks for the welcome. Hopefully, over time I will be able to both contribute and learn from these message boards (looking back, I wish that I would have found this site while I was still in high school).
And PGStaff, I definitely agree with what you posted. And to be more accurate, perhaps I should have said that there are quite a few players who do not intially play as freshman that do eventually end up getting drafted (in whatever round it might be).
And to amend what I first posted, I agree that most all of the eventual "top" draft picks do not sit the bench as they enter their respective colleges as freshman. So, my initial statement would have probably been more correct if I had just said that those individuals often times become "draft picks" instead of "top draft picks".
And PGStaff, I definitely agree with what you posted. And to be more accurate, perhaps I should have said that there are quite a few players who do not intially play as freshman that do eventually end up getting drafted (in whatever round it might be).
And to amend what I first posted, I agree that most all of the eventual "top" draft picks do not sit the bench as they enter their respective colleges as freshman. So, my initial statement would have probably been more correct if I had just said that those individuals often times become "draft picks" instead of "top draft picks".
coolhand,
Your post was a very good one. BTW, I think I kind of like you. I think everyone else will too and your input will be welcome and well received here.
Best of luck to you.
Your post was a very good one. BTW, I think I kind of like you. I think everyone else will too and your input will be welcome and well received here.
Best of luck to you.
coolhand,
I see in another thread that you are planning to transfer from a JUCO to (I am assuming) a D1 4 year program if you receve an offer.
Can you give us some insight as to whether beginning at a JUCO may or may not have helped your game. What were your options and why did you choose a JUCO? Do you feel sitting on a bench for two years at a larger program would have been more beneficial or playing at a JUCO before your transfer?
Thanks.
I see in another thread that you are planning to transfer from a JUCO to (I am assuming) a D1 4 year program if you receve an offer.
Can you give us some insight as to whether beginning at a JUCO may or may not have helped your game. What were your options and why did you choose a JUCO? Do you feel sitting on a bench for two years at a larger program would have been more beneficial or playing at a JUCO before your transfer?
Thanks.
coolhand3030,
just want to reiterate GREAT post. looking forward to hear your response from TPM. You sound almost exactly word for word like my son, dont know anything about the talent level but he almost says the exact things to me. he also is planning on attending a JUCO. so really glad you joined the HSbaseball web. Its great to hear from a player and what goes on in your thinking process as a young man. good luck
just want to reiterate GREAT post. looking forward to hear your response from TPM. You sound almost exactly word for word like my son, dont know anything about the talent level but he almost says the exact things to me. he also is planning on attending a JUCO. so really glad you joined the HSbaseball web. Its great to hear from a player and what goes on in your thinking process as a young man. good luck
Thanks for all of the positive comments--
And in response to your question, it would be needful to say that after high school, my baseball career has been altered in a way that most players will never personally experience. So, for the average JUCO Sophomore, my current situation is a bit different than what it would normally be.
In high school, I was recruited by many colleges from all of the different levels. And personally, at the time, though many D-2/D-3 programs were interested in me, I was very honest in telling them that I was going to play at the D-1 level. However, I spoke with some great coaches who represented some very successful ball teams in those divisions. But, I had decided, for several reasons that I would not be attending those universities.
Out of high school, at my stage of development, I felt like I would be an impact freshman at whichever D-1 program I attended. I had the chance to go to some very “smart schools”, but ones that did not have the type of competitive baseball program that I felt would fit me best. In addition, there were some very elite baseball programs that I felt comfortable with in many ways (unfortunately I couldn’t go to all of them!...).
At that time, there were also many pro teams that showed a lot of interest in drafting me. But, I did not want to start playing professionally straight out of high school; and I told all of the scouts that I would not sign if they drafted me. Still, several teams tried to get me to go to a JUCO so that I could be a draft-and-follow. But, I told them that I didn’t want to go to a JUCO either; in my situation, I felt like attending a 4-year university would be best. There were some great JUCO’s that spoke to me though, trying to sway me that direction. And perhaps, if I was in a different circumstance, attending a JUCO would have been the right choice to springboard me into pro-ball.
Anyways, I signed at the D-1 where I felt would be best for me. However, during my freshman year, I began to seriously consider serving a 2-year full-time mission for my church. Before the spring season started, I told my coach that I was probably going to soon leave school to serve my mission. After a lot of thought, and through receiving a lot of advice from my coach as well, he decided that if I was really going to do that, he wanted to look out for my best interest and for my future baseball career.
As a result, in order to reserve my 4 years of eligibility (if I were to come back several years later and still want to pursue baseball), we decided to take the red-shirt. In my situation, it was definitely the right decision. And right now, I look back and am very glad we decided to do that! (And plus, our pitching staff was loaded that year—-7 of them were drafted).
Soon afterwards, I left school to begin my sevice and moved to Argentina in South America where I would be living. I didn’t play baseball or stay in any type of real competitive physical condition....and surprisingly, during all of that time, I actually didn’t even throw a baseball. And though I had dreams of playing again, I knew that it might not have been a possibility.
Upon my return, I was offered back my scholarship from my old coach. But, this past fall, I decided to enroll at a JUCO instead. And so 4 months later……here I am. And that’s the gist of my story.
So this past September 2007, I began tossing again for the first time. Having taken such a long lay-off from pitching, it’s been frustrating and difficult in various ways. But, right now my arm is feeling really great. And fortunately, I will be able to continue playing.
Like I mentioned in my other thread about early committing, I’ll be making my decision of where to play next year pretty soon, and I will be signing in April. Luckily, I have several really great options. I have some difficult decisions to make, but I am really excited about this season and about being able to continue my pitching career.
Well, if you made it all the way to here, thanks for reading this long story! With my experience, I hope to be able to contribute here in whatever way I can.
And in response to your question, it would be needful to say that after high school, my baseball career has been altered in a way that most players will never personally experience. So, for the average JUCO Sophomore, my current situation is a bit different than what it would normally be.
In high school, I was recruited by many colleges from all of the different levels. And personally, at the time, though many D-2/D-3 programs were interested in me, I was very honest in telling them that I was going to play at the D-1 level. However, I spoke with some great coaches who represented some very successful ball teams in those divisions. But, I had decided, for several reasons that I would not be attending those universities.
Out of high school, at my stage of development, I felt like I would be an impact freshman at whichever D-1 program I attended. I had the chance to go to some very “smart schools”, but ones that did not have the type of competitive baseball program that I felt would fit me best. In addition, there were some very elite baseball programs that I felt comfortable with in many ways (unfortunately I couldn’t go to all of them!...).
At that time, there were also many pro teams that showed a lot of interest in drafting me. But, I did not want to start playing professionally straight out of high school; and I told all of the scouts that I would not sign if they drafted me. Still, several teams tried to get me to go to a JUCO so that I could be a draft-and-follow. But, I told them that I didn’t want to go to a JUCO either; in my situation, I felt like attending a 4-year university would be best. There were some great JUCO’s that spoke to me though, trying to sway me that direction. And perhaps, if I was in a different circumstance, attending a JUCO would have been the right choice to springboard me into pro-ball.
Anyways, I signed at the D-1 where I felt would be best for me. However, during my freshman year, I began to seriously consider serving a 2-year full-time mission for my church. Before the spring season started, I told my coach that I was probably going to soon leave school to serve my mission. After a lot of thought, and through receiving a lot of advice from my coach as well, he decided that if I was really going to do that, he wanted to look out for my best interest and for my future baseball career.
As a result, in order to reserve my 4 years of eligibility (if I were to come back several years later and still want to pursue baseball), we decided to take the red-shirt. In my situation, it was definitely the right decision. And right now, I look back and am very glad we decided to do that! (And plus, our pitching staff was loaded that year—-7 of them were drafted).
Soon afterwards, I left school to begin my sevice and moved to Argentina in South America where I would be living. I didn’t play baseball or stay in any type of real competitive physical condition....and surprisingly, during all of that time, I actually didn’t even throw a baseball. And though I had dreams of playing again, I knew that it might not have been a possibility.
Upon my return, I was offered back my scholarship from my old coach. But, this past fall, I decided to enroll at a JUCO instead. And so 4 months later……here I am. And that’s the gist of my story.
So this past September 2007, I began tossing again for the first time. Having taken such a long lay-off from pitching, it’s been frustrating and difficult in various ways. But, right now my arm is feeling really great. And fortunately, I will be able to continue playing.
Like I mentioned in my other thread about early committing, I’ll be making my decision of where to play next year pretty soon, and I will be signing in April. Luckily, I have several really great options. I have some difficult decisions to make, but I am really excited about this season and about being able to continue my pitching career.
Well, if you made it all the way to here, thanks for reading this long story! With my experience, I hope to be able to contribute here in whatever way I can.
Wow Coolhand - I'm impressed! Thank you for joining our board and sharing your experiences.
I wish you the best in your baseball endeavors - Sounds like you made some tough decisions about your priorities at an early age so I don't think you will have trouble with the decision about where to sign this April.
Good luck and keep us updated!
I wish you the best in your baseball endeavors - Sounds like you made some tough decisions about your priorities at an early age so I don't think you will have trouble with the decision about where to sign this April.
Good luck and keep us updated!
I guess North Carolina is an odd state - almost 30 DIs and DII, no DIIIs, and only 1 NAIA school. From what I can tell. there are only 2 Junior Colleges, but I could be wrong as it was a quick glance. There seems to be community colleges in about every county though, but I think only a very few have baseball.
So maybe it depends on where you live. Son could play DI at UNC, UNCG -C, -W or Elon or High Point. They are all great schools, but I imagine the programs are very different within the DI designation.
You just have to do what is right. If "sitting" makes a kid work harder, then maybe it is a good thing. I wonder if some of these studs need some humbing? Just a thought, I don't know. If a kid can play DI, but chooses something else because he can play immediately, the instant gratification may work in a negative way, if he does not have to work to get better.
Aaaaccck? How many sides are there to this baseball coin?
eta: 3 DIIIs - all very good schools: Greensboro, Guilford, Methodist, and NCWesleyan. My assistant went to Wesleyan - duh. Too excited about the possibility of snow! at least we had a delay.
anyways.....
So maybe it depends on where you live. Son could play DI at UNC, UNCG -C, -W or Elon or High Point. They are all great schools, but I imagine the programs are very different within the DI designation.
You just have to do what is right. If "sitting" makes a kid work harder, then maybe it is a good thing. I wonder if some of these studs need some humbing? Just a thought, I don't know. If a kid can play DI, but chooses something else because he can play immediately, the instant gratification may work in a negative way, if he does not have to work to get better.
Aaaaccck? How many sides are there to this baseball coin?
eta: 3 DIIIs - all very good schools: Greensboro, Guilford, Methodist, and NCWesleyan. My assistant went to Wesleyan - duh. Too excited about the possibility of snow! at least we had a delay.
anyways.....
55 mom
NC has a number of Division III programs---Methodist and NC Wesleyan come to mind immediately
NC has a number of Division III programs---Methodist and NC Wesleyan come to mind immediately