We have nice discussion going on in pre-high school
about this subject.
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I am of the mind set when my son starts shaving is the right time to start throwing CB`s
That measuring stick won't work for all. My son is 18 and still hasn't had to shave....but he does have a nasty breaker
I personally think 13 seems the right age. Although I have heard that there is no increased risk in injury if thrown correctly, I think having a dominant curveball at a young age hurts your ability to learn how to pitch.
It's similar to the kid in basketball who is 6 feet in 6th grade, and only learns to play in the post. When he doesn't grow in anymore, and 6 feet is average (similar to a curveball), they are no longer as good. Rather than learning how to dribble and shoot (equivalent to learning how to locate pitches), they simply learned how to use their size.
13 is also the age where Babe Ruth starts, which is where most kids in our area play. Starting a kid with curveballs at 12 wouldn't make sense because he was likely still playing against 11 year olds in Little League. It would be unfair for one pitcher in a league to throw curveballs and another not to be able to.
It's similar to the kid in basketball who is 6 feet in 6th grade, and only learns to play in the post. When he doesn't grow in anymore, and 6 feet is average (similar to a curveball), they are no longer as good. Rather than learning how to dribble and shoot (equivalent to learning how to locate pitches), they simply learned how to use their size.
13 is also the age where Babe Ruth starts, which is where most kids in our area play. Starting a kid with curveballs at 12 wouldn't make sense because he was likely still playing against 11 year olds in Little League. It would be unfair for one pitcher in a league to throw curveballs and another not to be able to.
My son will be 26 in October and has never thrown a curveball. However, he has a mean slider that he started throwing in high school but his delivery on it is a bit different than other sliders and does not harm him in any way.
quote:It would be unfair for one pitcher in a league to throw curveballs and another not to be able to.
Why so? I you use that same philosophy it would seem as if it would be just as unfair for one pitcher to throw "hard" when another pitcher was not able to?
I think the only consideration for limiting a pitcher's curve ball would be for injury prevention. I have heard the age of 14 thrown around (growth plates etc) but since my son was already throwing one at ten (when I wasn't looking) I taught him the proper way to throw one at ten and he started using it at that age. I did monitor the situation closely and maybe we were just lucky?? I don't claim to know the proper age --- but he never had any arm problems --- and developed a great 12-6 CB --- and a mid 90's FB. As far as those that say having (and throwing) a good curve ball will hinder the development of a good fastball ---- I don't see the relationship. I think pitchers that lack velocity throw more CB simply because they LACK velocity. Increased velocity is what all pitchers seek but it eludes most. To me it would make more sense to blame the overuse of the CB on the lack of velocity instead of the other way around.
Fungo
quote:Why so? I you use that same philosophy it would seem as if it would be just as unfair for one pitcher to throw "hard" when another pitcher was not able to?
I think the difference would be the fact that throwing "hard" or not is a matter of skill level whereas being allowed to throw a curve ball or not is a matter of the rules. That being if there was an age set..
My son started throwing curves at eleven. He was trying to teach himself the curve. The mechanics were wrong. I taught him properly. It wasn't a primary pitch in LL and 11U and 12U. He throw mostly fastballs and a knuckle curve. He threw 8-10 curves a game.
At fifteen it's his third pitch behind the fastball and circle change. When we play a 16U travel team with mashers he'll mix in a lot of circle changes and curves. The fastball becomes the third pitch.
At fifteen it's his third pitch behind the fastball and circle change. When we play a 16U travel team with mashers he'll mix in a lot of circle changes and curves. The fastball becomes the third pitch.
RJM, with all due respect I think that is the wrong approach, although I understand your logic. I think it is very important important for a young pitcher to first learn how to dominate with and locate his fastball--getting primo hitters out with that fastball--before resorting to offspeed pitches. You state that the fastball has become your son's third pitch, and I'm saying that is WRONG.
Of course, I understand the concept of pitching backwards. Using the offspeed pitch to set up the fastball. But if you can compete and win with just one pitch -- the fastball -- you are ahead of 90% of your peers.
Most kids do not have a quality breaking pitch or change-up. It may work against 15, 16, or even 17 y.o.'s in your son's youth travel league, but not against top-level travel teams, college guys and pros. IMHO, a quality breaking pitch or change is learned much later, so it is better to spend your time developing and working on a dominate fastball.
Fact is, if you don't have a dominate fastball no coach at the upper levels will waste his time teaching the offspeed stuff.
Of course, I understand the concept of pitching backwards. Using the offspeed pitch to set up the fastball. But if you can compete and win with just one pitch -- the fastball -- you are ahead of 90% of your peers.
Most kids do not have a quality breaking pitch or change-up. It may work against 15, 16, or even 17 y.o.'s in your son's youth travel league, but not against top-level travel teams, college guys and pros. IMHO, a quality breaking pitch or change is learned much later, so it is better to spend your time developing and working on a dominate fastball.
Fact is, if you don't have a dominate fastball no coach at the upper levels will waste his time teaching the offspeed stuff.
Bum,
I'm at the the 2011/15U World Wood Bat tournament that PGstaff's organization is running this week. The quality of teams varies considerably, but some of the best teams in the country are here.
No pitcher at this tournament is trying to "dominate with" with only a fastball. Good hitters at this age can pound high 80's fastballs--if they know it's coming. Every pitcher needs an offspeed (change up or curve) pitch to keep hitters off balance.
The available evidence suggests that a high school pitcher possessing a 90+ mph fastball will get the opportunity to learn to pitch even if he needs a big barn! (to hit the broad side of
). He certainly doesn't need to dominate; he just needs the velocity.
I'm at the the 2011/15U World Wood Bat tournament that PGstaff's organization is running this week. The quality of teams varies considerably, but some of the best teams in the country are here.
No pitcher at this tournament is trying to "dominate with" with only a fastball. Good hitters at this age can pound high 80's fastballs--if they know it's coming. Every pitcher needs an offspeed (change up or curve) pitch to keep hitters off balance.
quote:if you don't have a dominate fastball no coach at the upper levels will waste his time teaching the offspeed stuff.
The available evidence suggests that a high school pitcher possessing a 90+ mph fastball will get the opportunity to learn to pitch even if he needs a big barn! (to hit the broad side of
). He certainly doesn't need to dominate; he just needs the velocity.
We had very good success with FB and CU through age 12. From 13 on (now 14), we flash the CB but do not rely on it. Our pitchers throw 80-85% FB, 10-15% CU, 5-10% CB. FWIW, we compete with the best teams in the country (Norcal, East Cobb, Team Alabama, etc.). We have beaten many of the best teams in our age group throughout the years.
Someone above said anyone can hit a FB if they know it is coming - very true. Who said they have to know when it is coming? 2-1 and 3-1 CU's are very effective as are 1-2 FB on the inner half. Teach your pitchers to pitch backwards at times and they CAN get by with a FB and CU only. We have had 4 games this year where our pitchers threw only 1 CB the entire game with 2 of them being in the 14U WWB and 1 in the Battle in the South.
Someone above said anyone can hit a FB if they know it is coming - very true. Who said they have to know when it is coming? 2-1 and 3-1 CU's are very effective as are 1-2 FB on the inner half. Teach your pitchers to pitch backwards at times and they CAN get by with a FB and CU only. We have had 4 games this year where our pitchers threw only 1 CB the entire game with 2 of them being in the 14U WWB and 1 in the Battle in the South.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Fact is, if you don't have a dominate fastball no coach at the upper levels will waste his time teaching the offspeed stuff.
I disagree. A good friend of mine was the career saves leader at the Citadel for many years. He pitched them into the CWS. He threw MAYBE 80 with a stiff wind behind him. He FB was slow, CB slower and CU even slower. Granted, these pitchers are few and far between but they do exist.
I am with Redbird here and this is not from me but from college coaches
At our showcase seminar this past weekend coaches talked to the parents about the "myth" of the 90 plus fast ball--one even explained how top two arms are 79 to 82 mph guys BUT know how to pitch
At our showcase seminar this past weekend coaches talked to the parents about the "myth" of the 90 plus fast ball--one even explained how top two arms are 79 to 82 mph guys BUT know how to pitch
This web site is about HS baseball and if you (or your son) want to make your HS team you must posses a good FB. End of story. There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.
When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.
When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.
bof i DON'T AGREE. mY SON HAD AN 80-83 MPH fb AND HE BEAT ALL THE US HS teams he played including a State Championship team who has 3 guys on LSU. He has faced ex pro sluggers and college guys and set 99% of them down. He has pitched against Florida State, U South Carolina and several other D1 colleges maxing at 84 and didn't give up a run. Last year he had a terrible year and it is about ruined mechanics and trying to get his velocity up. I am currently trying to correct the damage done.
I could make a quick list of 25-30 pitchers I knew who were FB/CU pitchers who were top 80s to mid 90s who no longer pitch because of arm problems. Some injuries may be cummulative but not all are. I have seen guys throw that one pitch and do the damage. One thing I have noticed is that most hard throwers have a tough time developing a CB later on.
I could make a quick list of 25-30 pitchers I knew who were FB/CU pitchers who were top 80s to mid 90s who no longer pitch because of arm problems. Some injuries may be cummulative but not all are. I have seen guys throw that one pitch and do the damage. One thing I have noticed is that most hard throwers have a tough time developing a CB later on.
BHD:
Let me guess your son is a lefty....
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.
Let me guess your son is a lefty....
Yes but a lot of the guys I have followed over the years are both.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Most kids do not have a quality breaking pitch or change-up. It may work against 15, 16, or even 17 y.o.'s in your son's youth travel league, but not against top-level travel teams, college guys and pros. IMHO, a quality breaking pitch or change is learned much later, so it is better to spend your time developing and working on a dominate fastball.
Fact is, if you don't have a dominate fastball no coach at the upper levels will waste his time teaching the offspeed stuff.
First, my son is not playing in a youth travel league. He's playing 16U USSSA Majors as a 14U eligible (turned fifteen in May). He only uses the breaking stuff a majority of the time against the top teams. It keeps them off balance.
Last year he was 5'4", 120. This year he's 5'11", 145. He hits 80 and cruises at 78. I believe this is good for his size and age. He has a nasty circle change.
The pediatrician predicts he'll be 6'2". I'm sure he'll gain at least thirty, forty pounds in the next three years. He continues to do the work to develop his arm strength. I don't believe working a team backwards once or twice a month is affecting his development.
The other side of it is how far he goes with pitching. He's a very good position player with 6.8 speed. I'm not looking for him to play at a top twenty program and sign pro. I'm looking at him to use baseball to get into the best college possible. His goal is to play at Harvard. His dream is to play for Vanderbilt.
RJM
Your son grew 7 inches in one year and gained 25 pounds!WOW! His Fastball is his 3rd pitch during a year he grew over a 1/2 foot.His growth plates
must be screaming.
Your son grew 7 inches in one year and gained 25 pounds!WOW! His Fastball is his 3rd pitch during a year he grew over a 1/2 foot.His growth plates
must be screaming.
The most common statement from him in the past year has been, "I'm hungry." He lives with his head in the refridgerator.
Because he's always been heavily involved in sports he's examined by a sports ortho specialist every year. He also plays s****r, basketball and travel basketball. He's never had a problem with growth plates. He has had problems with Severs (heels) and Osgood-Slatter (knees) in the past. His pitching has been limited. He's pitched in relief. He pitches about thirty innings at school and about thirty or forty in travel. The fastball as a third pitch only happens a couple of times a month. He throws a lot. Since the rapid growth should be over it's time to begin stretching him out to be a starter.
His rapid growth this past year was nothing compared to his sister. She grew fourteen inches in eighteen months from 4'8" to 5'10". She didn't have any physical problems other than being a spaz for a while. Ever seen a new born calf trying to get out of the batter's box and down the line?
Because he's always been heavily involved in sports he's examined by a sports ortho specialist every year. He also plays s****r, basketball and travel basketball. He's never had a problem with growth plates. He has had problems with Severs (heels) and Osgood-Slatter (knees) in the past. His pitching has been limited. He's pitched in relief. He pitches about thirty innings at school and about thirty or forty in travel. The fastball as a third pitch only happens a couple of times a month. He throws a lot. Since the rapid growth should be over it's time to begin stretching him out to be a starter.
His rapid growth this past year was nothing compared to his sister. She grew fourteen inches in eighteen months from 4'8" to 5'10". She didn't have any physical problems other than being a spaz for a while. Ever seen a new born calf trying to get out of the batter's box and down the line?
The better the hitters the more you have to pitch and not throw. Just because a hitter knows a fb is coming does not mean he will hit it. Or he may hit it but roll over the outside fastball etc. Disruption of timing and location is what pitching is all about. It all starts with a fb that the pitcher can locate. The more velocity the less time the hitter has to make a good decision. The better you locate your pitches the less chance you have of getting balls squared up on you. If a pitcher uses the breaking ball as his primary pitch good hitters will adjust to this approach and take it away. If your fastball is not good enough to keep them honest then it will be absolutely mashed. There are alot of pitchers who have been very successful with a less than dominant fastball. But these guys can throw that fastball for a strike to a location on a consistent basis. And they can throw their breaking stuff in any count for a strike. The less velocity you have the better pitcher you better be. The more velocity you have the more mistakes you can get away with.
The fact is the guys with very good velocity that can locate it and can locate good breaking stuff as well are at the top of the list as pitchers. The next group would be the guys with average fb's that can locate it and locate off speed stuff as well. If your fastball is not good enough to at least speed up the bat in a fastball count then your breaking stuff is going to get hit a long ways.
IMO it all starts with a good fb that can be located. It does not have to be dominant imo. It just has to be good enough to keep hitters honest. When a pitcher has a dominant fastball hitters have to cheat on the fastball. This makes their breaking stuff very effective even if its not great. So if your fastball is average your breaking stuff better be better than average.
The fact is the guys with very good velocity that can locate it and can locate good breaking stuff as well are at the top of the list as pitchers. The next group would be the guys with average fb's that can locate it and locate off speed stuff as well. If your fastball is not good enough to at least speed up the bat in a fastball count then your breaking stuff is going to get hit a long ways.
IMO it all starts with a good fb that can be located. It does not have to be dominant imo. It just has to be good enough to keep hitters honest. When a pitcher has a dominant fastball hitters have to cheat on the fastball. This makes their breaking stuff very effective even if its not great. So if your fastball is average your breaking stuff better be better than average.
Coach May,
RJM: My 14 yo son grew about 6 inches last school year and the Osgood-Schlatters is KILLING him... Have you had any luck with any remedies?
Coach May:
I'm with you on the FB that can be located.
In fact next school year I am going to quit using the word "control" and call it "talent" ... I'm sick of watching guys who can throw hard but can't find a strike zone. I just call that poor pitching. Who needs it?
I'm with you on the FB that can be located.
In fact next school year I am going to quit using the word "control" and call it "talent" ... I'm sick of watching guys who can throw hard but can't find a strike zone. I just call that poor pitching. Who needs it?
If you allow your son to throw a football you are allowing him to throw the ball with his hand in a sideward plane to the ball which gives a sideward spin or rotation versus the backward rotation of a fastball rotation.
My son played QB in Pop Warner through JV high school. He suffered no ill effects from either...its in the grip and the finish of the throw that determines efficiency. Throwing the football requires finishing at the hip to keep the elbow slightly bent. It is the same with the curve.
The pressure points on the ball for throwing the football and throwing the curve are the same. The main pressure points are the middle finger and the thumb.
My suggestion for all pitchers is learn to throw the football with a tight spiral and you will have a better curveball as a pitcher.
JMO
My son played QB in Pop Warner through JV high school. He suffered no ill effects from either...its in the grip and the finish of the throw that determines efficiency. Throwing the football requires finishing at the hip to keep the elbow slightly bent. It is the same with the curve.
The pressure points on the ball for throwing the football and throwing the curve are the same. The main pressure points are the middle finger and the thumb.
My suggestion for all pitchers is learn to throw the football with a tight spiral and you will have a better curveball as a pitcher.
JMO
My son had his problems before he grew. It wasn't a problem during the growth burst. He never felt pain. He only had discomfort after games. He would ice his knees.quote:Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
RJM: My 14 yo son grew about 6 inches last school year and the Osgood-Schlatters is KILLING him... Have you had any luck with any remedies?
You're going to laugh on this one. I'm not sure if it worked or was psychological. My wife is into holistic heeling. She was advised to tape magnets to his knees (I had to stop and laugh while typing this .... still laughing). Whether it was in my son's head or real, the discomfort stopped.
There were a couple of kids on his travel basketball team that had to quit for a year. Their doctor's told them school ball was enough wear and tear on O-S.
Son never had problems like t-s or rjm's sons, but we use a natural product called arnica for relief of muscle aches and pains. It does not have a scent. It relieves swelling - good on those bruises when kids are hit by pitches. Son has used it at the beginning of season on his arm. Husband uses it the first week of umpiring.
Anyway, thought I would recommend it.
Anyway, thought I would recommend it.