Youth Pitching and YOUR son

Son is 14 and an 8th grader in the Houston area.  Played in an org.  All paid coaches and no dad's.  And don't go up to the dugout or you will be shamed. There are about 14 coaches across the age groups, all with college/low minors play and some high school/college coaching experience. BBCOR bats required starting past fall. Son played "2020" age group-you must play grade and not age.  Tryouts were Jan, practice Feb, started tournament play in mid March.  It's $300 a month.  Includes tournaments/averaged two per month.  Played until June.  Off July/Aug.  Played again Sep/Oct/Nov.  And it's a "football/basketball friendly" org.  Also, a lot of practice is conditioning/agility/some weights. Fall practices would have half the kids as spring.  Tournaments were almost all within an hour or so from the house.  Played BCS  13U in Fort Myers to end season.  Lost in semi-finals to eventual winners.  Probably over-achieved for that finish. Especially for kids that were all 2020 kids.  Team got ranked by PG in their year end rankings.

Son also played with his middle school team, which was a bit like rec ball.  Only about 10 games over 8 weeks.

Son was a pitcher/1B/RF for org team.  He threw 76 1/3 innings for year.  I write them down by date, innings and pitches.  I have for last three years.  Pretty good spacing/org respects the arms and listens to me on how much he can pitch.  His top pitches by appearance 81, 76, 69, 66, 65, 60.  Any pitcher in org is auto-pulled if they reach 30 pitches in an inning.  Pitched 11 innings in fall/ 65 1/3 in spring.  He played first or came out of game after pitching.  Would play outfield at other times.  He was fastball/changeup only until last couple games where he threw about 10 sliders - a new pitch for him.  He touched 75 at the PG event.  Maybe a couple more in the fall (maybe not-eyeball only).  Hit 5th mostly, sometimes 4th, sometimes lower.  In the fall, he got some "exposure" to playing 15,16 and even 17U local HS tournaments.  Eye opening, but good.  He competed.

He has an ex-MLB pitching coach outside the org.  Known and respected in the area.  For what it's worth, has a WS ring.  Teaches son simple/break early/short stride/get on top/explode/locate/compete with your fastball.  Just started showing him a slider at end of year.  Son has never thrown a curve or any kind of breaking ball before that. Takes a lesson most weeks of the year when in season.  $40 lesson if bought in packages.  Org doesn't have bull pens at practices/but sometimes scrimmages / live batting practice.  Lesson is a lesson and a bull pen.

Son plays basketball and football in the middle school the last two years.  He is in a good sized private school but will go to high school in a 6A zoned public school.  OK baseball, lost a long time top coach to a rival school just recently.  He says he will play only baseball for the high school.  I would approve of basketball if he changes his mind, but not football.  Enough of the injury risk.  Not sure if basketball and baseball coaches work together with kids or not at his new school.

Right now my son is going to a personal trainer during the school break (no basketball) for about 3 sessions to "learn how to work out", specifically, to learn how to squat/deadlift and lunge properly.  He pulls (often at my urging) Crossover Symmetry.  Also occasionally goes to the gym with me, core workout, body weight stuff, and throw medicine balls.  He hasn't picked up a baseball since Nov 15.  Around Jan 15, we will start to play catch, around Feb 15 throw bull pens, first pitch in March.  And play catch will grow into Jaeger style long toss.  He has done that for several years.  He won't play for Middle School this year.  He will play for a "Mickey Mantle" team in the summer.  It is incoming freshman to his high school.  I saw it last year, and it is like back to rec ball.  He may/maynot play in the fall for his org, but he won't pitch.  He will most likely spend next fall conditioning and working out.  Things could change that far out.

We also hunt and fish.  Especially hunt.  He goes to friends houses, goes to movies.  Leaves dirty socks on floor, somehow can play xbox, watch his ipad and text at the same time.  He can go into a grocery store with $5 and come out with a bachelor nutritious meal.  We are working college adult survival skills.

Love to hear what others have done/plan to do.  Or any critique is welcome.

Good stuff, I really enjoyed reading all of that. Best of luck to your son.

Thanks

Yup, nice read and a good example of fully committed but with some reasonable safety measures and some balance thrown in.

You did ask for critique and that is what we do best around here  so here's somethin'...

It seem like, as together as your org is and as many as they have on staff, there would be good pitching instructors and instruction involved so you didn't have to go to yet another resource and cost.

The only other thing is my usual key reminder... you guys are fully engaged and have an eye beyond HS.  Make sure you and he both slow it down enough to fully enjoy the HS (and pre-HS) experience. 

Thanks for the feedback.  Son and I are both in love with the pitching coach.  It's also nice to have someone who is outside the org.  If changing is necessary, it makes it an easier transition.  I think this team will "grow" at the same rate as my son.  But if not, a change is possible in a few years.

It's been a blast so far.  He has had both success and failure playing wise, but it has been fun for both of us.

OK, now I'll sit in my other seat... 

Son doesn't pitch any more (college JR OF) so I'll go back to when he was OP's age. 

When son was in 8th grade, he pitched a fair amount.  He played rec (Babe Ruth) and played travel ball, mostly within a few hours drive with one Vegas trip to wind it up.  Didn't count innings or P's but if his arm was sore, he didn't pitch (I know, high-tech, huh).  As a LHP, velo wasn't anything special but good curve and change and better stubborn competitive streak.  He played OF, tiny 1B and backwards catcher.  Good hitter.  Just refused to lose.  He played school basketball, played rec and travel inline hockey, loved wakeboarding and snowboarding, started surfing and started wearing smelly stuff.  We also fooled around with tennis and golf and he wanted to play football but ran out of hours in the day.   As I recall, that year, there was also a high activity level around the neighborhood with capture-the-flag and TPing friend's houses.  This may have been the closest he came to any interest in the arts.

His body wasn't matured enough to start training.  But he did so many different sports with full enthusiasm, he looked like he worked out.  No private lessons yet.  Plenty of baseball folks around him that could keep him from falling astray with any deficiencies.  He loved to drag dad to the cage and the pen.  We played lot's of games within those get-togethers.

Now that I think about it, that was one of my favorite and most fun years with him and it was, undoubtedly, the same for him.  There was plenty of time in the days and years ahead for more serious and focused training. 

Unlike others folks with youth pitchers, this is the first I am reading about your son.   Sounds like a very good program, although I don't agree with all, but that's just my opinion.

One thing I am in question about, why a slider?  Just because his instructor is a former ML guy does not mean teaching this pitch at this time is appropriate. That pitch , I believe caused a lot of issues to pitcher son and he didn't start throwing until in college.  I suggest that you do homework, its all about your sons arm health, later on when it really counts.  I still fall into the group that developing the FB and CU serves the youth pitcher best. 

Also, on training, make sure its appropriate for his age and position.

TPM, thanks for the feedback.  I'll talk to his p-coach about the slider.  

Go44dad posted:

TPM, thanks for the feedback.  I'll talk to his p-coach about the slider.  

Before you do that, try to gather info on your own. And remember that instruction should be age specific if he plans on pitching in the future.  

Go44Dad,

Reading your post takes me back a few years when I was doing many of these same things with my sons.  It was a good read, and it seems you've found a good organization.   That is a huge plus to give him the tools to learn how to put it all together.  A couple comments and suggestions.  First, I agree with TPM about the slider.  Based on what I know now, observations, and experiences that would be a red flag for me for a 13 yo.  Second, use HSBBWeb and http://www.asmi.org/  as your go to resource.  I wish I had become more familiar with ASMI sooner.  Pitching is a violent motion, and there is a lot to learn on the ASMI website that is age appropriate and you can use as a guideline.  

Good luck.

His arm is not ready for the slider!       Does your son play SS when not pitching?

Do you know Ralph Garr [former National League batting champion] Years ago, during our Area Code tryouts at Texas A&M I met Ralph. Ask him was Henry your hitting instruction? What did Hank Aaron tell you?

He said "figure it out for yourself" Ralph.

Bob

Consultant posted:

His arm is not ready for the slider!       Does your son play SS when not pitching?

Do you know Ralph Garr [former National League batting champion] Years ago, during our Area Code tryouts at Texas A&M I met Ralph. Ask him was Henry your hitting instruction? What did Hank Aaron tell you?

He said "figure it out for yourself" Ralph.

Bob

 

"Yes, son.  I'd be glad to."  That's what Hank Aaron said to me when I asked for his autograph in 1970 before a game at Fulton County Stadium.  My favorite player of all time.

My son plays 1B/RF when not pitching.  Usually 1B or DH after he pitches.

Good read and yes it brings back some good memories. My son will be heading off to pitch at a D-1 school next year. Time flies so definitely enjoy it. You can get so caught up in the chase for a scholarship that you forget to enjoy the present time. I would only add one thing that we did differently. We didn't "shut it down" for a long period of time. Son threw all year. He didn't pitch off of a mound for most November and December but he threw all year. Long toss and plyo ball drills. We obviously monitored if there was any pain, soreness or fatigue but there wasn't and he was stronger for doing more throwing. He didn't let any atrophy kick in which is a concern if you don't do anything for a couple of months. I monitored his innings pitched, which was helpful for guarding against overuse. His junior year HS season and summer he probably threw 80 innings. Not a lot, which was fine with me. One of the things you will find out later that is hard to see at the time is that these tournaments don't mean anything. Except for the travel org, no one cares who wins the tournament. Look at all of it as development. My son had plenty of successes and plenty of failures and the failures end up helping a lot more. Gives them more character and resilience down the road. 

In the end, my opinion is to have your son throw a lot. Not pitch, but throw. Learn to throw without pain and learn to throw as hard as he can. The worst thing you can do to a pitchers is teach them how to pitch. 

Good luck and as TPM says, make sure to stop and enjoy this time with your son as you can never have this time back. 

Thanks Rover, I am aware that tournaments are reps for the players.  Also aware that kids play to win games.  Our org's coaches don't put winning tournaments above development.  i.e. won't break pitching rules to try and win tournaments, plays three catchers, rotates players through different positions.  But game play matters for development.  And game play under pressure is development.

The one point I go back and forth on is the theory to throw a lot and year round, or the theory to not pick up a ball for a couple to four months like ASMI says.  This year we chose to not pick up a ball for two months.  Last year son played light catch a couple times a week during the off time.

Go44dad posted:

The one point I go back and forth on is the theory to throw a lot and year round, or the theory to not pick up a ball for a couple to four months like ASMI says.  This year we chose to not pick up a ball for two months.  Last year son played light catch a couple times a week during the off time.

On the advice of a LOT of knowledgeable people my 8th grade son has not picked up a ball since 11/1, and doesn't plan on it until 1/30 and even then he won't pitch full speed until the end of February.  He has been doing a strength/speed/agility hitting program during that time and he is taking blocking lessons without throwing the ball, during this time. 

My son can't decide between being a pitcher and being a catcher, and neither can his coaches, so I consider this shut down period mandatory for him. As for lessons, I took him for his first paid lesson when he was 12.  He is an early bloomer and the coaches liked him pitching, but he didn't really know how to pitch.  The problem is when you pitch incorrectly at 70+mph you tend to screw your arm up, which he was. Instructor had him fixed in under 2 minutes, oddly enough it was something he did with his arm AFTER he released the ball (who knew?!?!?!?!), anyway, he goes about twice a month to make sure his mechanics are decent enough so he doesn't hurt himself. 

Go44dad posted:

TPM, thanks for the feedback.  I'll talk to his p-coach about the slider.  

for u14 if he can learn to command a Fastball and change up he will need nothing else for at least year...that is not going to happen because most likely he already has a reasonable curve. at least about 95% of above average 14u pitchers do.

if he can locate FB & CU he will be very successful for years to come, including many many HS level wins. Being able to locate is the key.

"The worst thing you can do to a pitchers is teach them how to pitch. "

Could not agree more with the above statement. Also, as TPM mentioned.... the slider... not needed.... this player is 13 ?  I would watch all the work out stuff as well....

As far as what 2018 did in 8th grade.... he played games and practiced with his middle school team.  Played summer ball with a good program.  No lessons, not much on the weights, did throw 5 days a week.  Pitched once a week and played some 3rd and OF.

In 9th grade started lifting with HS team, was closer for varsity team, threw 25-28 HS innings and  35-40 innings in the summer.  Threw some in the fall at showcase tourney's and took off Dec, Jan .... started pitching a little in Feb... was 80% ready in March and 100% ready in April.  

Went fishing a lot.

Here is what I got. Son is a 2017…

Last season son’s HS team rotation went as follows: Game 1 Pitch, Game 2 sit, Game 3 1^st base. Wash rinse and repeat. He would throw between 3 innings earlier in the year, and about 5 later in the year. We play three game series against most teams with two days in between series. So he would throw about 10 innings a week. The coach did monitor pitch count and we were deep in pitching so if you were having an off day you were yanked before you had a chance to run your pitch count up.

As I mentioned on here many times, our travel program is setup for showcasing, not winning tourneys and as such there is a lot of rotation going on. We rarely play during the week and unless it’s a long weekend our games are crammed into Saturday and Sunday. In general 2 games each day. The general rule is if you’re a two-way player and pitch you do not play another position on that day. For the most part my son rotated between 1^st and OF on Saturday and then pitched on Sunday. Though sometimes he would pitch second game on Saturday. Generally going between 4 and 6 innings when he did pitch.

 This is his first off-season since before JR high that he is not playing football or basketball. In the past he would fit baseball in wherever he could during the offseason. This year he is shut down from throwing from 9/15 to 12/14. During the shutdown period he baseball schedule has went something like this:

 Monday – Up at 5am and into the HS gym for weight lifting

 Tuesday – An hour with his hitting instructor. Some nights he would also attend the team-hitting workout, but that was rare as his hitting instruction overlapped with team hitting.

 Wednesday – Team “physical development”. His program works very closely with a physical trainer from an MLB team.   This guy grew up in this program and now is employed as a trainer by the local MLB team. He volunteers his time with our kids and has setup a great program to get our kids rehabilitated and developed during the off-season. I have never seen my kid so sore and drained after a workout.

 Thursday – Off day

Friday – HS gym workout at 5am. For the most part, he does occasionally skip this day.

 Saturday – 6am travel team “camp” for pitchers. No throwing, more rehabilitation and physical development.

 Sunday – 7:30am travel team “camp” for position players. This is another day he does occasionally skip depending on how he feels.

 Right now, we are in a warm phase for throwing, light throwing to build up the arm. Come mid-January he will start working out with his pitching coach for 30 minutes each week and throwing bullpen sessions. In addition long toss and a weighted ball program will be added to his workout schedule.   In addition his travel program will kick into higher gear and will have workouts 3 nights a week and probably 1 weekend day to get the kids ready for HS tryouts. 2/29 are tryouts here in IL. Once tryouts start the travel team will cease working out until after the HS season. He may continue or may not continue on with his pitching coach and hitting coach until the actual HS season starts. That will be determined by how he is feeling about his hitting and pitching as we get closer to the season.

 In and amongst all the working out we were able to fit a trip in to Mexico in August and are going to Florida next week.   Possibly planning a trip to Breck or Keystone in February but he told me this weekend that he does not want to chance hurting himself right before the HS tryouts so we may not go this year.   As he is not playing 3 sports this year he is enjoying his free time. A little laying on the couch, some x-box and a lot of time with the girlfriend.  We have fit in some college visits and will plan more as we move forward.  So far we have visited schools that have nothing to do with his baseball.  We are planning on visiting some of the ones who have contacted him about baseball in the next few months. 

bacdorslider posted:

"The worst thing you can do to a pitchers is teach them how to pitch. "

Could not agree more with the above statement. Also, as TPM mentioned.... the slider... not needed.... this player is 13 ?  I would watch all the work out stuff as well....

Backdorslider, I can only assume your quote refers to messing up a pitcher once they know how to pitch.  You aren't condoning no lessons for pitchers right?  My 14u son had a VERY sore arm after pitching less than 30 pitches, with one lesson on how to properly pitch his arm no longer hurt even after 60 pitches.

Please qualify your statement about watching all the work out stuff as well.  Are you specifically thinking about weight lifting?  My 13 year old works out often. However, the program he is in does very little with dumbbells, mostly more sprinting/wheelbarrow walks/repetitive lunging/band resistance/pull ups....so mostly the body working against itself. Are you referring to those types of programs too?

CaCO3Girl posted:

bacdorslider posted:

"The worst thing you can do to a pitchers is teach them how to pitch. "

Could not agree more with the above statement. Also, as TPM mentioned.... the slider... not needed.... this player is 13 ?  I would watch all the work out stuff as well....

Backdorslider, I can only assume your quote refers to messing up a pitcher once they know how to pitch.  You aren't condoning no lessons for pitchers right?  My 14u son had a VERY sore arm after pitching less than 30 pitches, with one lesson on how to properly pitch his arm no longer hurt even after 60 pitches.

Please qualify your statement about watching all the work out stuff as well.  Are you specifically thinking about weight lifting?  My 13 year old works out often. However, the program he is in does very little with dumbbells, mostly more sprinting/wheelbarrow walks/repetitive lunging/band resistance/pull ups....so mostly the body working against itself. Are you referring to those types of programs too?

I think parents can get a little caught up in the workouts and lessons too early. But each player is different and matures at a different rate.  I just get the feeling that sometimes parents feel that doing something everyday is a must or they might get left behind,  or not reach potential .  It just seems to me that the OP is doing a lot for a 13 year old.  But that's just my opinion... I might be off base.... 

When I look back at all the middle school and high school players I have seen develop over the years and the amount of work and money that is put into this I have seen more than my share of disappointed parents.  I have seen players that were terrible in MS and studs in HS and it was not due to lessons and workouts. It was due to maturity, physicality and talent.  I have nothing against a player doing whatever they can to improve their skills but more times than not it's the player with the natural god given stuff that ends up moving on.

Now to answer your specific questions.  You are correct I am not condoning "no pitching lessons" .   I feel that at the ages of 10-14 pitching lessons should be general in nature, balance, finding arm slot, locating fast ball, learning the change up and then later the curve ball.   I see too many parents and pitching instrcutors trying to perfect a 13 year old pitcher constantly tweaking and changing mechanics. 

In my experiences a 13 year old is going to grow and change so much from year to year its better to have a good plan for pitching and learn the basics and see what happens... in your case it seems your son needed someone to correct a mechanical flaw and of course you have to fix that but you do not have to teach a 13 year old  a slider...

Also, I was thinking about weight lifting... I think what you are doing is the exact thing you should be doing.  Weight lifting to learn the technique is ok, light weights.  I see too many times the freshman are doing the same workouts as the seniors.  Be careful with the weights, make sure the players are supervised at all times, you can tear a labrum very easy . Watch the bands as well, if you do these incorrectly you are going to hurt your arm.. Also, all this workout stuff is futile on a young under developed body. 

I am not saying you should just show up and play , but just because some ex-MLber is giving lessons or the others are doing it is not going to make you . 

Lastly, I do not read much on here about learning the game,  a lot about camps, showcases, working out, lessons etc... spend some time learning the game.

"You are correct I am not condoning "no pitching lessons" .   I feel that at the ages of 10-14 pitching lessons should be general in nature, balance, finding arm slot, locating fast ball, learning the change up and then later the curve ball.   I see too many parents and pitching instrcutors trying to perfect a 13 year old pitcher constantly tweaking and changing mechanics. "

BACDOOR -

Agree with you here.  My son spent sometime in pitching lessons starting around age 10,  but we found an instructor that worked on balance, making sure he is stepping straight to the plate, where to put the glove when he pitches, etc.  Not a lot of tweaking and mechanical changes.  To be honest with you, now that he is 17 Im not really sure what he is working with his pitching coach on.  My entire involvement is basically, "do you think coach x is still helping you?"  

BTW, my 2017 survives on these pitches:  2 seam, 4 seam, Change Up, and a curve ball.  The curve ball he learned around 12 YO from a coach but rarely used it until he was 14.  By that time he had learned that location on a fb or the speed change on a CU can be just as effective as a curve ball so it has never been one of his main pitches.  I think he will occasionally throw a slider or slurve in to the rotation but that is very rare.  

Joes87,   I agree my 2018 throw a 2 and 4 seam, CU and CB..  the slider well ... he knows how to throw it and I fought with the HS coach last year about throwing it too much .. I finally won.

Now my 2013 and 2014 throw the slider... but they are 21 years old .  Locate a fast ball and , learn to run the ball in , master the CU and then every now and then the CB and they will not know what to swing at... 

Sorry to hi-jack a bit, BUT (ignorant girl waves her hand), how much slower should the change up be than the fastball?  In theory?

Again, thanks for input, critique and especially the experiences of your son.

Just to be clear on a few facts that get "drifted" out of the threads...My son is 14, and will be 15 in the summer (not 13 like several posters mentioned).  He has never thrown a breaking ball of any kind until this past November.  Strictly FB and circle change.  Sometimes the circle change is really good.  Sometimes not so good.  In two November games, he threw a total of @8 sliders.

My son is 14 and in the 9th grade, has played travel for the past three years and is a right handed pitcher.  I have always been worried about arm care so I made sure I found him a solid pitching coach and let the coach do what he felt is best.  My son has been clocked throwing 78 mph and a curve ball of 64.  He runs a 6.9 60.  I spend $85 per week for a pitching coach and my son is now on the Tom House weighted ball program. 

Go44dad posted:

Again, thanks for input, critique and especially the experiences of your son.

Just to be clear on a few facts that get "drifted" out of the threads...My son is 14, and will be 15 in the summer (not 13 like several posters mentioned).  He has never thrown a breaking ball of any kind until this past November.  Strictly FB and circle change.  Sometimes the circle change is really good.  Sometimes not so good.  In two November games, he threw a total of @8 sliders.

Sorry I thought he was 13....  the slider count seems right on. I am not saying what you are doing for your son is incorrect... it might be spot on...

CaCO3Girl posted:

Sorry to hi-jack a bit, BUT (ignorant girl waves her hand), how much slower should the change up be than the fastball?  In theory?

13-15% slower....  but maybe to a particular batter you might want to speed it up a little or slow it down a little.... that's when sizing up batters  tendancies, mind set and swings becomes more important... where your defense is set up, what field your on, runners on base, score of the game etc...

BACCORSLIDER - hijacking the post again, but how does one vary speed on a change up?  Is there something from a grip perspective relative to ball placement or grip pressure?  Or, is it something in the mechanics whether it be less leg drive or slightly slower arm speed?

CaCO3Girl posted:

Sorry to hi-jack a bit, BUT (ignorant girl waves her hand), how much slower should the change up be than the fastball?  In theory?

I would say about 8-15 mph slower obviously depending on how hard the fastball is. Also depends on the type of change up they throw. Circle change vs split change. split change tends to be a bit faster than the circle change.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

BACCORSLIDER - hijacking the post again, but how does one vary speed on a change up?  Is there something from a grip perspective relative to ball placement or grip pressure?  Or, is it something in the mechanics whether it be less leg drive or slightly slower arm speed?

Sorry to jump in but mechanics should be exactly the same. That is the part of the deception of the pitch. It is supposed to look like a FB to the batter. To adjust speed would be how far back in their hand they hold it or if it is a circle change vs a split change, but all of the adjustments would come in the grip and not in the mechanics and definitely not in a slower arm speed.

Go44dad posted:

Again, thanks for input, critique and especially the experiences of your son.

Just to be clear on a few facts that get "drifted" out of the threads...My son is 14, and will be 15 in the summer (not 13 like several posters mentioned).  He has never thrown a breaking ball of any kind until this past November.  Strictly FB and circle change.  Sometimes the circle change is really good.  Sometimes not so good.  In two November games, he threw a total of @8 sliders.

I think in the end you'll see a bunch of different approaches. None are the "right" way to do it. Everyone is different. I think the main thing is to keep your son healthy and do what's right for him. Learn as much as you can about pitching and arm care. There are a lot of coaches out there that think they know about pitching and are doing things that have been de-bunked a long time ago. One example is long distance running. There are multiple articles that explain why this isn't a good thing for pitchers. Why sprints are much better for pitchers.  Research as much as possible and make sure you understand why the coach is asking your son to do something. Again just my opinion from our experience.

The Rover posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

BACCORSLIDER - hijacking the post again, but how does one vary speed on a change up?  Is there something from a grip perspective relative to ball placement or grip pressure?  Or, is it something in the mechanics whether it be less leg drive or slightly slower arm speed?

Sorry to jump in but mechanics should be exactly the same. That is the part of the deception of the pitch. It is supposed to look like a FB to the batter. To adjust speed would be how far back in their hand they hold it or if it is a circle change vs a split change, but all of the adjustments would come in the grip and not in the mechanics and definitely not in a slower arm speed.

agree with Rover .... its in the grip...  what you are trying to do is deceive the batter. Sometimes 2013 will show everything that looks like fastball, his timing, his looks to the bag, the shakes to the catcher,  many things , the grip is the most important, but the "set-up" is as well.    When you have him setup right you'll know it.... that's when you see him give up on a pitch , remember seeing mlb guys faces when they "guess wrong" or had the "oh sheet" moment?  

After a while college and pro guys see the spin so you need something besides grip and spin... get in his head a little... Sometimes the batter wins the mental game and the pitcher gets his off-speed launched .

Go44dad posted:

My son is 14, and will be 15 in the summer (not 13 like several posters mentioned). 

My son is 13, will be 14 in the summer, and in 8th grade.  That must be the confusion.

bacdorslider posted:

After a while college and pro guys see the spin so you need something besides grip and spin... get in his head a little... Sometimes the batter wins the mental game and the pitcher gets his off-speed launched .

Talking about the spin, particularly with a circle change.  If you throw mostly a 4 seam fastball, throw a 4 seam circle change.  If you throw mostly a 2 seam fastball, throw a 2 seam circle change.  This could probably be transferred to any off speed pitch you throw.

I'll never forget the following story.  When my son was in 9th grade, I believe, he was at a pitching lesson.  During the lesson, there happened to be a MiLB AAA player there.  His pitching coach called the guy over and asked him to stand in the batters box for a few of my son's pitches.  Son threw him some fast balls.  Coach asked him to throw a change (my son throws the circle).  Coach asked batter how it looked.  He stated that the arm action was good, the arm speed was good and deception was good, but he could tell it was a change.  Coach asked him how could he tell?  He said son was throwing a 2 seam FB and the change was a 4 seam and the spin on the ball was different.  I was shocked especially considering we were in a dimly lit hitting barn.  Coach told son to throw a 2 seam change, so he did.  Batter said it was MUCH better.  

These are the little things kids will learn as they get older.  It is a good thing to think about while they are younger so they can perfect the technique for when batters can actually see this kind of thing.

bballman posted:

bacdorslider posted:

After a while college and pro guys see the spin so you need something besides grip and spin... get in his head a little... Sometimes the batter wins the mental game and the pitcher gets his off-speed launched .

Talking about the spin, particularly with a circle change.  If you throw mostly a 4 seam fastball, throw a 4 seam circle change.  If you throw mostly a 2 seam fastball, throw a 2 seam circle change.  This could probably be transferred to any off speed pitch you throw.

I'll never forget the following story.  When my son was in 9th grade, I believe, he was at a pitching lesson.  During the lesson, there happened to be a MiLB AAA player there.  His pitching coach called the guy over and asked him to stand in the batters box for a few of my son's pitches.  Son threw him some fast balls.  Coach asked him to throw a change (my son throws the circle).  Coach asked batter how it looked.  He stated that the arm action was good, the arm speed was good and deception was good, but he could tell it was a change.  Coach asked him how could he tell?  He said son was throwing a 2 seam FB and the change was a 4 seam and the spin on the ball was different.  I was shocked especially considering we were in a dimly lit hitting barn.  Coach told son to throw a 2 seam change, so he did.  Batter said it was MUCH better.  

These are the little things kids will learn as they get older.  It is a good thing to think about while they are younger so they can perfect the technique for when batters can actually see this kind of thing.

Now there's a nice tip with some depth..

Sorry, but the slider should be put away until he is possibly a senior.  The reason being, if he can get outs with that pitch, they will make him use that pitch, you don't want to do that too young. Control it while you can.  

A very wise man told us once son didn't need formal pitching lessons to change anything. Some tips here and there but wait until he is with someone who will tweak everything and that was by his college pitching coach.  So I agree with no formal pitching lessons to change anything until HS, at least.  Pitching is about constant adjustments, and I think teaching that too young creates frustration too young.

This doesn't count for youth pitchers learning to pitch, and no one should make a player a pitcher unless they are willing and able. And no one should just pitch as a youth player, that being 10-14, 15 at least.  Why people make youth players  pitchers only so young, I have no clue.  

Another thing, once the pitcher gets to college, the older guys pick up the weaknesses. Mine was giving away throwing a change. , tipping.  So what you do well in HS changes.

I also don't understand why pitchers are not taught the 2 seam along with 4 seam. 

JMO.

TPM posted:

I also don't understand why pitchers are not taught the 2 seam along with 4 seam. 

Maybe there is hope yet.  My sons 12u youth coach taught him both. Then again he also taught him the curve ball that looks like a fastball coming out of his hand heading for the batters head and then curves/drops into the strike zone so maybe all hope is still lost. :-)

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

I also don't understand why pitchers are not taught the 2 seam along with 4 seam. 

Maybe there is hope yet.  My sons 12u youth coach taught him both. Then again he also taught him the curve ball that looks like a fastball coming out of his hand heading for the batters head and then curves/drops into the strike zone so maybe all hope is still lost. :-)

I am not sure that is something I would joke about.

TPM posted:

Sorry, but the slider should be put away until he is possibly a senior.  The reason being, if he can get outs with that pitch, they will make him use that pitch, you don't want to do that too young. Control it while you can.  

A very wise man told us once son didn't need formal pitching lessons to change anything. Some tips here and there but wait until he is with someone who will tweak everything and that was by his college pitching coach.  So I agree with no formal pitching lessons to change anything until HS, at least.  Pitching is about constant adjustments, and I think teaching that too young creates frustration too young.

This doesn't count for youth pitchers learning to pitch, and no one should make a player a pitcher unless they are willing and able. And no one should just pitch as a youth player, that being 10-14, 15 at least.  Why people make youth players  pitchers only so young, I have no clue.  

Another thing, once the pitcher gets to college, the older guys pick up the weaknesses. Mine was giving away throwing a change. , tipping.  So what you do well in HS changes.

I also don't understand why pitchers are not taught the 2 seam along with 4 seam. 

JMO.

Funny thing is, 2019Son only throws a two-seamer. That's what you get when a kid has no pitching lessons, and at about age 10 or 11 he tells his dad he likes the feel of a two-seamer better, and his dad says, "well, then throw that."