Midlo you are 100% correct. I hope Aiken us declared a free agent and then we will see what his level of talent is worth in the open market. This is not likely to happen, but it should. The Astro's were playing the system and their whole house of cards came falling down on them.
Originally Posted by Goosegg:
The end of this story is not yet written.
If I was the Astros, I'd worry about how this teenagers medical issue managed to get leaked. If the leakage is tied to the Astros, under HIPA, the monetary consequences would dwarf the potential bonus.
Interesting that the article admits that a person outside the organization (and perhaps outside the scope of any medical records release) was allowed to be present while players were discussed - again, the Astros had better hope that no players medical histories were discussed.
As far as I know and I could be wrong the player signs a general HIPA release of information when he signs, but he never signed.
Originally Posted by Dad04:
The story may not be finished, but I am reminded of Padres 2010 1st rounder Karsten Whitson, who turned down $2 million out of high school. He went to Florida, had shoulder surgery missing junior year. Washington drafted him 37th round in 2013. He signed for $100,000 in 2014 with Boston.
i just found out that the players parents are very wealthy so that may not be the same as Karstens situation. And the player is not a kid but 18 years old.
Maybe someday MLB will figure how to work it out, in the meantime teams will continue to find ways to not pay a player more than they think that they are worth and players will continue to demand more that they are worth.
Players union files a grievance on behalf of Aiken and Nix. The Astros had no comment; they had plenty of comments during the signing period.
https://www.baseballamerica.co...-aiken-nix-marshall/
I wonder what the Astros defense will be to Nix: nothing precluded the Astros from signing him; the Astros just deemed the penalties which would be incurred as too steep. There was no classic "impossibility" argument because the contract execution wasn't impossible - just onerous on one party. Perhaps the Astros can argue that a condition (the signing of Aiken to a below slot deal) precedent never occurred.
Here are some procedural questions: how does the union have standing? (Neither boy is a member, nor signed any agreement with MLB or the Union.) How can the boys relinquish their rights to have a court hear their case (if they so choose)? (They can voluntarily choose arbitration - but many times arbitration, while quicker, has restrictions on discovery, the rules of evidence may differ from the court system, and there is really no effective review of a decision (appeal right).) If the boys participate in the union grievance process, do they waive rights to go to court?
(In Aikens case, the HIPA issue is a huge potential problem for the Astros - and while the ultimate signed contract for pro players contains a HIPA waiver, a HIPA waiver is needed even before that signing to release any medical information to a club. If the Astros breached the terms of that waiver (and it's pretty clear that Aiken's MRI conclusions reached the press (who gave that information is to be determined)), the monetary penalties are (and, IMO, should be) draconian.)
This case has "lawyers full employment act" written all over it.
Here are some other issues which may arise: Did UCLA over commit so it cannot honor all the signed NLIs? Will someone take on the NCAA for penalizing a minor (and Aiken was a minor) for acquiring the talent (agent) to help navigate the treacherous shoals of such a potential contract?
Unless the grievance etc. reaches some other outcome, Aiken would have to go back in the draft next June. The road to free agency is closed. Ask J.D. Drew and Luke Hochevar how that works. They had Boras try it for them and it didn't work out, though in the end they did both get more money.
The Astros' handling of this reminds me of the Padres some years back. They took Tim Stauffer in the first round, THEN did their medical exam only AFTER they'd spent their first round pick -- and indeed only after Stauffer quite honorably disclosed that he'd been having shoulder issues. At that time Stauffer should've been able to command $2+ million but I think the Padres used the injury issues to cut him down to something like 750k. Stauffer rehabbed instead of going the surgery route and has had a pretty long MLB career, albeit not at the star level.
I think the lesson the Padres learned was, hey, we can do this to anyone, and what leverage do they have? Because they did it again with their first rounder in 2008. There I think there was a huge dispute over whether any substantial medical issue even existed, and the parties went to the wire in a standoff, with the end result being the player ended up getting less than his slot would've led you to expect. That particular fellow is now 6 years into his pro career with no repercussions from the supposed medical issue (tearing it up in AAA and looking for an opportunity, now in the Mets organization).
I do think this is short sighted. If you think about the past 8-10 years, you don't see the Padres signing elite prospects and you don't think of them as one of the teams with lots of hot young talent. The Astros had an absolutely terrible reputation for drafting and development, but seem to have hit on some winners just recently. So now they want to go backwards? Some people can't seem to get out of their own way and allow themselves to experience success.
When I think of the Padres I think of two words, Matt Bush.
Originally Posted by Midlo Dad:
.......................
At the top of the draft, the money is still spectacular. But when you have teams shelling out like they did for foreign players like Tanaka, Matsusaka or Chapman, you can see that the American-born players are getting shafted here. No drafted player can command what the foreign guys can, for the simple reason that they can't play one team off against another to drive up the number.
In short, the draft is a cartel, legalized by union laws and the CBA.
Good post Midlo.
What do you think the chances are for the Federal Gov't stepping into this fray given the possible HIPAA violations against some of these draft picks, labor issues, American players getting the shaft, "draft cartel" and generally wanting to grandstand against greedy owners? In my mind the Federal Govt is partially to blame for giving baseball antitrust exemption status. This draft process is a mess and it is clearly not a free labor marketplace. I'm not saying the Fed gov't can make it better, but I'm saying it has crossed my mind that they may step in some way. They could easily hold the antitrust exemption status over MLBs head.
HIPPA violations in this case would not be a huge amount - if someone actually tries to prosecute.
Why would an MLB team be subject to HIPAA? They're not a healthcare organization.
Not sure but the CBA may involve HIPPA waivers.
As for the "antitrust exemption," that's not a statute, it is a court ruling from a long, long time ago that was wrong when it was written and has been exposed as an absurdity since. But antitrust would never apply to the draft because the antitrust laws have an "out" for anything handled via a labor union agreement. Outside of the labor context, I'm not sure the so-called antitrust exemption would still hold up in court. But since this only seems to come up in the labor union context, it's a dead issue.
There are waivers. If not every team would be liable when they announce so and so has an injury.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by Goosegg:
The end of this story is not yet written.
If I was the Astros, I'd worry about how this teenagers medical issue managed to get leaked. If the leakage is tied to the Astros, under HIPA, the monetary consequences would dwarf the potential bonus.
Interesting that the article admits that a person outside the organization (and perhaps outside the scope of any medical records release) was allowed to be present while players were discussed - again, the Astros had better hope that no players medical histories were discussed.
As far as I know and I could be wrong the player signs a general HIPA release of information when he signs, but he never signed.
HIPAA only covers the provider. The Astros wouldn't be covered by it. The player would have signed a HIPAA consent agreement to allow the club access to his records. They are under no legal obligation to kepp them confidential unless they have a written agreement with the player. Schools often come up under this as well. However, they aren't covered by HIPAA, either. They are, however, covered by education statutes which require them to keep records like grades and medical info confidential. HIPAA may be the most misunderstood piece of legislation in history. Lawyers often don't understand it. You'd be surprised how often I see attorneys come into court and claim HIPAA privileges for parties that aren't covered entities under HIPAA. The end result is that everyone who has their hands on medical records are generally afraid to disclose.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
Why would an MLB team be subject to HIPAA? They're not a healthcare organization.
They definitely aren't. Their only involvment would be that I'm sure Aiken signed a HIPAA release so that the Astros would have access to his records. Now, if there were some sort of agreement made with the player requiring they keep any released records confidential, that's another matter outside of HIPAA
Reading that article, it seems that the young man made a mistake by not signing which will cost him a lot of money. I guess you have to ask, how much money is not having to play for the Disastros worth? 
sorry to change the subject, but has anybody heard where he is going to play this spring?
Originally Posted by Doughnutman:
sorry to change the subject, but has anybody heard where he is going to play this spring?
I think there's a very good chance he won't play anywhere.
Originally Posted by Shooter44:
Reading that article, it seems that the young man made a mistake by not signing which will cost him a lot of money. I guess you have to ask, how much money is not having to play for the Disastros worth?
$5 mil, apparently.
Had lottery ticket, agent said don't cash it.
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
Originally Posted by Shooter44:
Reading that article, it seems that the young man made a mistake by not signing which will cost him a lot of money. I guess you have to ask, how much money is not having to play for the Disastros worth?
$5 mil, apparently.
Had lottery ticket, agent said don't cash it.
Easy to say this without knowing Aiken's family history. Let's just say that $5 million means a lot less to the Aiken family than it does to you or me.
Originally Posted by Kyle Boddy:
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
Originally Posted by Shooter44:
Reading that article, it seems that the young man made a mistake by not signing which will cost him a lot of money. I guess you have to ask, how much money is not having to play for the Disastros worth?
$5 mil, apparently.
Had lottery ticket, agent said don't cash it.
Easy to say this without knowing Aiken's family history. Let's just say that $5 million means a lot less to the Aiken family than it does to you or me.
$5 million might mean less, but it surely doesn't mean nothing.
"My family and I planned for all the possible outcomes."
Reading between the lines I'd guess he's taken out an injury insurance policy to cover such a scenario.
It has certainly been interesting following the young man.
Hate to say "woulda, shoulda, coulda", but I think most people thought he should have taken the 5 million. As has been suggested, his family may be in a better situation than ours, and he probably had insurance. However, I would still think he would have been better off accepting the offer from the Astros. It appears he received some bad advice, but hopefully, it will all work out for him. I am rooting for him...
Well at this point I dont expect him to come out and say, I should have taken the money, He's pretty naive in talking about support staff with the Astos as well. Dallas Keuchal and Colin Mchugh just had incredible years out of nowhere. It appears their pitching coach may know what he is doing. I suspect Nolan Ryan knows a bit also.
Im not sure if the though that he had TJ no big deal look how high some of the other top prospects were picked who were facing TJ or had it like Hoffman or Giolito. The Astros saw something that really gave them pause and seems to be an added layer or risk, a small UCL or malformed, maybe not easy to fix was one rumor. I hope his recovery goes well but his agent is going to have to be more upfront I suspect and teams are going to want to do a lot more due dillegence.
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
"My family and I planned for all the possible outcomes."
Reading between the lines I'd guess he's taken out an injury insurance policy to cover such a scenario.
The insurance policies cover not playing. Once he is rehabbed and throws a pitch in a game the opportunity to cash in on the policy is eliminated. Willie McGahee (UMiami) took the gamble after ACL surgery and had a decent NFL career.
I read about the day he threw and had to leave after, what 11 pitches? it was obvious then that the news would not be good.
Saying he didnt want to play for the astros? Come on, these teams put their youngsters in the spotlight early, his chances would have been if he did well he would have been out there this season or next at one point.
My son was drafted by the cardinals when Jeff Luhnow was both the scouting and farm director, and from what I know, not one player has ever had a real issue with Luhnow's integrity or honesty. And as stated somewhere here all pitchers getting a large bonus have to take MRI on shoulder, and elbow.
We felt badly when they spoke badly of him and I don't get it, because they did offer him some really nice money to sign even with his issue. Anyone of our kids would have taken that in a heartbeat. Mine would have, as well as signed for the other slots the other 2 guys turned down, also advised by the same guy.
Now the player has no school, no pro team to rely on and the operation and the rehab is all on him. He would have been paid a nice bonus, and when he needed TJS he would have been paid while sitting out a year. No insurance company would have paid out a large sum without doing their homework first and in this case the Astros stated they had issues with the integrity of the UCL.
I feel badly for the player, I really do, shows what can really happen when you don't get really good advice.
Maybe a team will pick him up this spring somewhere in the draft. I wish him well.