13 Year Old Team- To Curve or Not To Curve

I have coached High School for several years. I also coached my youngest who is 14 for three years in AAU starting out at 10U. I won two state titles and finished in the top 10 D-1 twice at 12U and 13U Nationally. We went 38-2 one year 35-6 one year. And we never threw one stinking curve ball. Four seam fastball, 2 seam fastball, change up and changed speeds on our fastballs. I faced team after team at all these age levels even 10U and curve after curve ball. I refused to let kids this age take the risk of arm injury because I dont feel that they are mature enough physically to handle the strain on throwing a cb even when properly taught. Its not worth the risk period. I also wanted them to rely on learning how to pitch. Meaning change speeds and hit location and setting up batters etc. Not to rely on a gimmick pitch because at that level thats all it is. Hey this is just my opinion please dont take offense. Its just my opinion.

By the way I just had a pitcher drafted by Atlanta last year. He threw his first curve as a High School freshman. He was limited to 5 per game his first year and 10 per game his soph year. We want our guys to learn to pitch and give their arms time to mature. Worked out pretty good for him and alot of others weve had.

Catcher,

I think I would introduce them to the curve ball in modest, slow steps making sure they understand the proper procedure along with everything else that goes with throwing a good curve without causing arm injuries.

In a 45 pitch bp session, I think I might only allow them 5 to 6 curve balls but my main goal would be making sure they could throw the fastball for strikes along with a good change-up for strikes also.

Scooter

Catcher, I totally agree with Coach May. If they develope and control a good fastball and then a changeup for strikes at that age they will do great. It was a great article in Sports Ills. last year about why all of a sudden arm injurys was rising for pitchers in MLB. SOme of them quite young. According to the research it was due to alot of breaking stuff being thrown at to early of an age and another BIG problem was not watching pitch counts for our youth pitchers. Coach May hit it on the head when he said they are not mature enough to really understand and also the strain it puts on there young arms and that very tender area called a growth plate in there elbow and shoulder. Just my opinion. I like Coach May did not let my son develope his curve ball until his freshman year (lastyear) in highschool. By changing speeds on the fastball and changeup he has been successful to this point!! Good luck and bring on some warm weather!! Play ball!

I agree with Coach May as well, although maybe not as strongly. I am of the belief that the curve MUST be taught properly. I myself am a victim of not having this done, and at age 35, I am paying for it to this day!

To add another perspective to this though, I believe the distance of the mound that you are playing with makes a difference. From a 45 ft. mound, the curve doesn't have that much time to break anyway, so a good changeup will be just as effective. Different story as the distance of the mound increases.

Finally, if you live in an area like I do, you will have outside influences to deal with as well. We have a baseball academy that kids go to that often teach things differently than what we do at the high school level. Then, it becomes a matter of how much the player (and his parents) have their trust and faith in you.

Good luck!!!

coach may you are my hero,
we have a junior who throws on the varisty squad, that may throw 3 curveballs a game. his strikeout pitch is the change-up. great movement, location, and change of speed. i think it is great when a kid can be competetive without the curveball. when should they learn it (correctly) about high school age. imo

Great posts!!! I hope to get young men that don't have a clue about the curve when they come to high school. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Ossification or the hardening of the cartilage in the elbow has not started by 13 and so, extreme damage could occur. Last year's senior group for us didn't have one "select" pitcher from their 8th grade year throw an inning of varsity. My "ACE" was an outfielder that I had to convert to pitching. He went 12-1 and so did well. The rest, were great 8th graders. Sad isn't it. We also start our kids as Freshman on the curve but they come to me. I spend time spinning from 30 feet for a good 2-3 weeks before they move back and then they get limits during the game. Typically, as posted earlier, 5 in a game with one having to be a 1st pitch curve to #4 for a strike. That is it.

Side note - The slider is also a very dangerous pitch if taught incorrectly. I often wonder why no one ask about it.

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen

CoachB25...great point about the slider or any kind of breaking pitch. I have seen young kids throw pitches that break and they don't know why.......then later on "my elbow is hurting"!
ISn't it all about the proper mechanics? I did lots of research and tried to get my son the proper mechanics and kept the curve ball (or breaking balls) away from my son until highschool. Great point imo.

I too coach a 13U Premier team. No curve balls, no curve balls, no curve balls! In fact, our philosophy matches Coach May's.

Our high school program makes it mandatory for a kid to have command of a FB and change up before they throw a curve. This directly affects all of the freshman pitchers. I suggest you use this for your 13 yr. old team. Once you have kids who can command the first 2, be sure to stress the proper grip and arm motion for the curve. You are building foundations for these kids to build upon. Start them off right! Good Luck!

First, the pitcher should have good command (ability to hit spots) with his fastball and changeup. And good fastball mechanics (the same mechanics being used for fastball and changeups).

If he has that foundation, then a little time working on the curve at 13 will not hinder his development or hurt his arm. The key is not to overdo it.

Start with teaching the proper curveball mechanics. Monitor closely. Go first with some easy, blooping curves just to get down the proper wrist action. Maybe nine or ten "bloops" a session. Work on this for several months. As long as necessary to get the mechanics down.

Then proceed to throw the curve, again monitoring the mechanics closely. Perhaps five or six per session.

Follow this regimen for several months. Then come game time, tell the pitcher that a good changeup is just as effective - and probably more so - than a curve. But to psych out the opponents, you will allow him to throw one curve an inning.

If he is showing good discipline, perhaps let him throw a couple an inning. At 13/14YO, I never let a pitcher use the curve heavily.

If the pitcher is not showing good discipline, then forbid use of the curve. I can hear some comments now - "Too late, the genie is out of the bottle". But the genie is already out. Every kid at 13YO "knows" how to throw a curve. Maybe not the right way, but they know a way. And he will play around with it. And no, you can't stop him from messing with it. So you might as well approach him as a young adult. Teach him the right way & do your best to control its use.

Younger than 13YO, I never taught or allowed use. And they were young enough to still be "intimidated" when the coach came down on them about not throwing curves. They may have done it on their own at home, but never in my practices or games.

Right or wrong, many HS coaches (all I know of, actually, in these parts) will expect a kid coming in to be able to throw a curve. The kid will not be able to do so if he never throws one before his HS tryout. And he could feel rushed to do so, thus not honing the mechanics as well.

And by having worked on it gradually, there is almost no chance of injury while a greater chance of learning it properly.

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." Sandy Koufax

Texan my problem with limited curveball instruction is you can monitor it at practice but you cant monitor it any other time. Kids like to experiment and they will if they think its ok. Once you introduce it they will throw it warming up and playing around with the boys. I feel that you have to get them to buy into the fact that it is bad for them untill they mature enough. You basically have to scare the he** out of them in order to keep them from experimenting with it. Thats not to say that Im coming down on you for your way of doing things. Its just the way I feel. I do not and will not be the reason a kid does not reach his full potential. I want to be a reason that he does.

Coach May, you're my hero. Coaches throw the hook for one reason, and one reason only at a young age. They think they need it to win games. "My kid can't get them out with a FB or CU, so I might as well teach them the CB". With the volumes of information out showing the potential harm that can be done, I simply don't understand how a coach can be so selfish.

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Originally posted by Coach May:
Texan my problem with limited curveball instruction is you can monitor it at practice but you cant monitor it any other time. Kids like to experiment and they will if they think its ok. Once you introduce it they will throw it warming up and playing around with the boys.

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I understand where you are coming from. But the reality is that by 13YO, they are going to fool around with it. Period. It happens. You can't monitor them away from practice.

By that age, IMHO it is better to treat them like responsible young adults & teach them the proper way. And you let them know that in return for teaching them & working with them, their end of the bargain is to show responsibility and not abuse the privilige.

I can't think of a single 13YO kid - even including those who are not pitchers - that I haven't caught fooling around with the curve at some point. Heck, I know I did at that age & I wasn't a pitcher.

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." Sandy Koufax

Texan to some extent you are right. Kids are going to fool around with the ball to see what they can do. My point is if you stress it enough that it is dangerous at their young age some will listen. All of them no. But when you start instructing them and introducing it to them then they are going to throw it. I personally just dont feel that the possible risk is worth the possible reward. If they are accomplished at spotting a fastball and change up then whats the point at that age anyway. When they get older they will have plenty of time to develop a good breaking ball.

I find that if pitchers have good mechanics, it is very easy to teach them to throw a curve.
Sometimes in just a few weeks they can learn to throw an effective breaking ball.

However, I get freshman in college that have never thrown a change-up. It takes at least 2 YEARS sometimes all 4 (in other cases 5 ) for them to learn to throw a change up and feel comfortable with it.

I really believe it is the most effective off speed pitch.

My point being, teach them good mechanics, and different grips of fastballs and changeups. It is also much like real estate, a strong focus on location, location, location.

One of the best ways for them to feel comfortable throwing the change up is to play catch and play longtoss by alternating with fastball grips and changeups grips. Longtoss forces them to use the same arm speed just to reach. Once they FEEL it, they'll know and start using it from the mound.

Let them develop thier elbow and shoulder strength before throwing curves.

This thread is ironic given an situation I ran into this week. We were working on our house and had to have a portion of one wall jacked up. We called a local contractor and the worker he sent was the father of a pitcher in a local community. I asked what school the son was going to next year since the boy is in 8th grade but they live on the line between two different school districts and he presently goes to a private school. He said his son is no longer playing baseball. You guess it, he hurt his arm this past summer throwing a curve and has to have arm surgery. Arm surgery and he is 13. Give me a break! Poor KID!

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen

I DID NOT THROW A CURVE UNTIL I WAS 16. My dad made me have control of a circle change and throw my fastball for spots. He told me when I could hit 8 of 10 spots at 60ft then I could throw a curve. I was very mad when I could not throw a curve and get the Higher number of K's per game...But now I am very greatful because those kids who were getting 12-13K's at 13 years old are done and I am getting K's at the D1 level right now ...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH COACH MAY

I am somewhat out of the norm of the previous posts. I would dissuade anyone younger than 12 from the cb or even offspeed pitches. I find it somewhat humorous that so many are willing to have kids throw change-ups at an early age. I have watch so many kids destroy their form, motion and place tremendous amount of stress on the shoulder by throwing change-ups. But I also know that alot of the people on this thread are not in the real world if they truly believe kids are not TRYING to throw cb, knuckleball, sliders or whatever at an earlier age some even younger than 6.
The key here is to teach proper technique. You can control a little kid from throwing junk by intimidation but at the immediate pre-teen years they are chunking those pitches from the outfield to 1st base, they could careless whose watching. I have seen it in every place I have observed practices, even my own. True these are not game situations but it is just as damaging. If you teach kids the proper technique and they can throw it properly then you offset the damage IMO. But throwing the "Check out this slider" and watching them put a ton of pressure on the wrong points, the ball doesn't rotate properly so there is no movement and what happens? Throw it back and let me try it again. They will do this all practice long, in the backyard, during warmups between innings. Teaching proper technique is the key in my mind because you aren't stopping them from throwing it outside of games. The post before this one is a classic example. This young man states he did not throw a cb until he was 16. A more accurate statement would have been "I did not throw a cb in a game until I was 16 yo". I know for a fact he threw or attempted to throw junk pitches on numerous occasions maybe just not in games because that is the nature of all children. Coaches by definition: One who TRAINS athletes or athletic teams. One who gives private instruction. - v. To teach or train;tutor. Just because you tell them not to doesn't mean it is not rampant. At your next visit to a ballfield or out the back window, see if you observe what I'm talking about.

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Originally posted by Fighting Squirrel:
I am somewhat out of the norm of the previous posts. I would dissuade anyone younger than 12 from the cb or even offspeed pitches. I find it somewhat humorous that so many are willing to have kids throw change-ups at an early age. I have watch so many kids destroy their form, motion and place tremendous amount of stress on the shoulder by throwing change-ups. But I also know that alot of the people on this thread are not in the real world if they truly believe kids are not TRYING to throw cb, knuckleball, sliders or whatever at an earlier age some even younger than 6.

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If anyone thinks that throwing changeups affects form or causes shoulder problems, then they have not been instructed on how to properly throw a changeup.

The changeup is thrown with exactly the same mechanics as the fastball. EXACTLY. The only thing that changes from fastball to changeup is the grip. Thus there is no effect on form (mechanics) nor is there any increased chance of injury.

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." Sandy Koufax

My son is a 16 year old Jr. and has never pitched, until this year. He's is still not done developing and I expressed concern to his pitching coach, at his first lesson, about throwing curves. No problem. His coach has taught him 3 pitches and he throws them ALL the same way, just changes his grip. He's throwing a fastball, a change-up and a "cutter" that drops about a foot right at home plate. IF he can throw strikes, he's going to be nasty. And his arm won't be stressed.

Texan,
Thank you for proving my point. The key is in the instruction ie. Coaching. Watch the games at your local park next time you go. See how many kids throwing fastballs muchless anything else are throwing incorrectly. I have seen coaches try to teach an 8 yo to throw a circle change. Hell their hands weren't even big enough to grip the ball correctly. If you can't grip it correctly, how are you going to throw it correctly? There is no way you can keep kids from throwing junk but you can offset it by teaching correct technique when they become interested in it and are physically capable. My kids half brother told a DII coach he throws splitter, slider, curve and knuckleball and he is 6. Do you think I would teach him those pitches now? No way! If I were his Dad or coach, I would tell him I would send him home if I caught him trying to throw those pitches because in his mind, he thinks he can. Will that stop him 100%? Hell no. But when he is able to correctly grip the ball, and can continually demonstrate proper technique, then I have offset alot of problems. I can assure you I can teach a kid improper technique and see problems immediately and that does not only apply to pitching. To my final point of the topic. If a 13 yo is phyically capable,has proper instruction, and can demonstrate proper techinque repeatively, then let him/her throw it but control it. I think the concern is not the pitch (if above applied) but how many innings a kid that age pitches. There is your real concern.

The only reason I suggested teaching kids how to throw change-ups instead of curves is because it seems to take kids much longer to feel comfortable throwing the change up than a curve.
It is very easy to teach most kids how to throw a breaking ball but many kids really struggle with learning to use the same arm action and arm speed for a change up. I also think it is the most effective offspeed pitch. Even more so than a breaking ball.

Yes, good instruction on throwing mechanics is without a doubt, the single most important factor to helping kids learn to pitch. However, in order to throw a breaking pitch without hurting your arm, you need to have solid mechanics for throwing fastballs. If you mechanics are flawed for throwing fastballs (ie, elbow dip, front side flying open...) then you will undoubtedly hurt your arm throwing breaking balls, if you haven't already hurt it throwing fastballs.

The focus of 13 yr old pitching instruction (first year from the 60'6") should be on fastballs and pitching mechanics. And for the purposes of teaching them how to pitch by using off-speed pitches, have them develop a change up and/or 2nd fastball grip (2 seemer). These all use the same mechanics as a fastball and will continue to encourage and promote good mechanics.

And yes, please keep pitch counts down.

Coach C,

I agree especially about mechanics starting first with throwing in general. I also agree about the change-up, very touch to get players comfortable. Instruction and mechanics were the main points I wanted to present albeit was probably too long winded.

My 13U team used the CU in moderation. I think it is on an individual basis. If the kid is well into puberty and is strong, I think it is OK in moderation. We start teaching it in practice, paying particular attention to mechanics. We call the pitches and limit them to 10-15 CU's per game.

http://www.highviewheat.com/index.asp

http://www.kristensfastpitchworld.com/index.asp

Very interesting discussion. A common thread is, it comes down to coaching and the teaching of proper mechanics. IMHO, the coaches teaching it to kids under 12, or physically / skeletally immiture are doing it simply to win ball games, and that is unfortunate. Hopefully, parents arm (no pun intended)themselves with enough knowledge to find a coach who is looking out for their son.