144 Pitches What would you do?

ACDad -- You present a tough one. Here is what one top Pitching Coach has advised: remember, he is their player, but he is your son. I'm sure his Coach cares about his players, but his job pressures him to be more in the moment, thinking about the game, and the season. Your job is a lifetime contract.

We have also found that lots of Coaches do not know the math about pitch counts. As a Dad, I would suggest that you respectfully approach the Coach and tell him that you have a concern you need to speak with him about. Then, armed with some credible research, speak with him about your son, pitch counts, arm health, and the need to recover.

If you do not have them, here are some figures I have obtained from the American Sports Medicine Institute, and the National Pitching Assoc. that I share with all of our player's & families going into each season (yes, I do play a Pitching Coach in the summer):

Suggested Maximum Pitch Counts: source: ASMI
Age Pitches/Game Games/Week
8-10 52 2
11-12 68 2
13-14 75 2
15-16 91 2
17-18 106 2

Suggested Recovery Days (based on # of pitches thrown): source: ASMI

Age 1 days 2 days 3 days 4 days
8-10 21 34 43 51
11-12 27 35 55 58
13-14 30 36 56 70
15-16 25 38 62 77
17-18 27 45 62 89

Effective Pitch Count -- Each Pitch thrown after the Pitcher reaches muscle fatigue has the same effect as 3 pitches. The point of muscle fatigue will vary based upon a pitcher's age, fitness, strength, mechanical efficiency, the day, and workload (cumulative & by inning). Let's say your son did not hit his fatigue point until 80 pitches (about right for a Soph), that means he threw 64 more pitches x 3 = 192 + 80 = 272 effective pitch count. I suspect you are even more mad now.

There is a great thred out on the site about running after pitching for rehab. I suggest you read this. If I were you, I would speak with the coach immediately. I would be respectful, but firm. I would ask him what his rational is about pitch counts & arm health. I would then make sure he has these stats. I would let him know that my son loves the game, loves being a part of the team, and wants to do whatever he can to help the team; and that I support that. But my job as his Dad is to look after his health and safety. I would make sure the Coach understands that I respect his position, and support him and the team, but that when it comes to my son, I expect the Coach to use him in a way that is consistent with guidelines for long-term arm health.

I'm sure there may be those who disagree with me ... but this is what I would do ... and have recently done.

I am not an advocate for speaking to the coach. However your son's arm health is at stake here. I would only approach the coach, or give him a call and just let him know that sonny won't be throwing any more than ___ pitches in any game. Be sure its a researched and reasonable amount. Other than that, the coach has his usual control. We always had parents of pitchers ask us or inform us of pitch counts. We worked together on those important issues because they would be the only ones in the waiting room at the hospital during surgery if the kids arm went. In other words, when it comes to health, the parents concerns should trump those of the coach. Beyond that, stay out of the coaches way when it comes to the team.

The boy showed that he is not afraid to speak up in telling the coach " I hope you don't expect me to play third tomorrow"---I think he will take care of it himself, and I would encourage him to, and let the coach know when it is enough on the mound

Under no circumstances should a parent ever speak to a coach about roster decisions, playing time, game strategies, etc.

BUT it is your duty to speak up if any child's health is jeopardized, and if it is your child, you are the primary person with responsibility.

It is not sufficient to leave this to your son to handle. To him, the coach is an authority figure and in many cases there is intimidation involved. This requires an approach from someone who is the equal of the coach, i.e., an adult.

Your first approach should be calm and present the facts in an educated manner. Give the coach a chance to explain what happened and why. Present your side. You can be firm without being confrontational or rude.

If HE becomes confrontational or rude, however, that would justify going to his superiors, in order to assure that his recklessness does not lead to injury, for your son or anyone else's.

I had this talk two years ago when our head coach left and the assistant moved up. Among other things I pointed out how the statistics indicated that pitchers became so ineffective after 100 pitches that leaving them in was pointless anyway. Happily our guy was very receptive and we have never once had a problem with him.

I realize we are very fortunate and that not everyone is so fortunate. No one really likes confrontational situations and it is natural to shy away from them or even come up with reasons why you should not do it. But if you think your son has any future in baseball, you'd best decide now whether you are serious about that future, or whether you're going to gamble it on a couple of regular season JV games.

I know lots of teenagers with zippers on their elbows. Sometimes injuries happen despite our best efforts. That doesn't mean we should not prevent those that might be preventable.

My son last year was allowed to throw 148 pitches in a game. I agree when it comes to playing time and things of that nature we should keep our mouths shut. However, either you or your son needs to take control of this before it is to late.
I did say something and believe it has been taken out on my son but if I hadn't and he got hurt I would never have forgiven myself.
Do not expect it to go well (mine didn't) and if the coach refuses to do something then your son needs to be able to say "Coach I'm done". Can you go one more inning "Sorry coach I can't my arm is hanging". Whatever you can think of. A good coach in my opinion will take the ball from the pitcher and say thanks, we'll finish it for you. He will watch the mechanics closely knowing that things change when a kid gets tired. A good coach does not let it get that far. HE takes the ball.

It is too easy with all of the pitch counters out there today for this to happen. I would not first approach the coach with the attitude of my son will pitch this many and that is that. I would definitely talk to him in person and express your concern and let him know what his pitch count was. Ask him about his philosophy about pitch count and what he would like to see his starters at. This may get him to commit himself to good ideals that he may not have thought of before. He may not have much experience and was thinking about the win and did not keep track. That is not an excuse but hopefully this will not happen again for the sake of the players. Talk to him and make sure it does not happen again. If he has a concerning pitch count philosophy, talk to the head varsity coach and get his views.

If my dad ever approached a coach about my playing time/ pitch count etc he and I would have had a major problem---but he would have never done it--

Again I go back to what I have said many times previous--we are allowing our kids to get too soft--when do they stand on their own two legs and speak up

I was at a game this year when the two starters threw 138 & 136!

I wouldn't approach the coach. My son would approach the coach. He wouldn't be drawing a line in the sand on pitch count number. He would be suggesting to the coach while he's all about doing what he can to help the team win, his arm can't hold up to as many pitches as the last outing on a regular basis. Then see what happens.

Imagine drawing a line in the sand on pitch count. Some other season your son is on the mound for the state championship. He needs one more out to feel the thrill of being on the mound when the championshipn is won. He has more left in the tank. The coach comes out, "Sorry kid, this is the number I agreed to with your father."

RJM, with all due respect, it is your son's fault. He could have come out of the game at any time, and should have at the first sign of discomfort. Either he felt fine, in which case he will probably be okay with some time off, or he didn't. If he didn't you need to teach your son to stand up for yourself. Regardless, a coach CAN NOT force your son to keep pitching, and I'm sure that if you 'investigated' a little bit, your son chose to keep going.

Draw the line in the sand. So the kid comes out with one more out left in the what... High school championship? So someone else finishes and your son is a big part of a championship TEAM. He's done his job and he is taking positive steps toward his future arm health. All kids should speak up for themselves. But when a kid comes home and tells you he's not going to talk to the coach about pitch counts because the coach might get mad, or he'll be ridiculed (kids opinion) then as a parent his health trumps anything else.
I am not condoning speaking to the coach about anything else, and if your kid is man enough or responsible enough to take care of this with the coach, then the 144 pitches wouldn't have happened in the first place. The reality is that all kids are different and while some may speak up, most will not. I have coached many different levels for over 32 years and I wouldn't condone something I didn't think was right.

I did approach the HS coach when he overused my son as a senior in high school. I think a lot depends on the coach, the parent, the player and the situation. In a perfect world the player would talk to the coach, the coach would respect the player's concerns and make the necessary adjustments. However that doesn't always happen and we have to go to a plan "B".

Since my son had already signed an NLI I contacted the college coach and informed him of what was developing and he said by all means talk to the high school coach. I told him I felt as if my son might be cut from the team if I intervened and he said that would be fine with the college. I talked to the HS coach, set a pitch limit and days rest ----- he got very angry. He made threats and I walked away. I bought a "counter", wife clicked it at the games, and everything worked out fine. The coach later apologized to me and my son has never had any arm problems.
Fungo

I also had a discussion with my son's coach, it was a "bit" over a buck 44, though I wasn't the one counting. What came of it was a couple of things, first he found out I cared and would challenge when things weren't right and second, I on the other hand found he was not strictly in it for his own glory (i.e. the win and win alone aspect). My son was in the mix and begging to continue, he wasn't struggling or laboring and was suceeding...he did admit he left him in too long, and that on another day it might not have gone the same way. As it turned out he showed very prudent care and concern for him there-after, my son threw 8 CG this season and will throw more this summer...I'll say that in these type of situations, it may not be as black and white as the coach being the complete b o o b and the kid being blameless...both can get caught up in the moment...yes the coach is the adult...but talking to him you may find out that if you open communications and find out where each of you stand, that you can work together to keep an arm that has potential, throwing without injury. I believe it is how you approach it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHP2140:
RJM, with all due respect, it is your son's fault. He could have come out of the game at any time, and should have at the first sign of discomfort. Either he felt fine, in which case he will probably be okay with some time off, or he didn't. If he didn't you need to teach your son to stand up for yourself. Regardless, a coach CAN NOT force your son to keep pitching, and I'm sure that if you 'investigated' a little bit, your son chose to keep going.

What's my son's fault? I'm a respondant to the original post.

Poor RJM, he was the respondant, not the original poster.

When son was a senior after signing his NLI, we did the same as Fungo after we thought son threw TOO many pitches in an opening season tourney game, contacted his college coach. Was told to have a discussion about acceptable pitch counts with the coach.

Although son has always been good at taking himself out when too much, ask that of a pre draft pitcher when all eyes and guns are upon him at a game.

As your pitchers get older and they notiece scouts or coaches watching, all previous discussions about speaking up may go out the window.

So what would you do in this case:

My son is a Sophmore playing JV/Varsity. Last night he struggled and after 5 innings he told the JV coach is arm is dead. He made him go out in the 6th and he could not throw a strike. He gave up a walk hits and they lost the game. He was at 136 pitches.

After the game the JV coach "cursed" my son out for not stepping up and said he had no heart. I was not happy and approached the Varsity coach and said he told you he had a dead arm and could not go another inning. The coach said "There is not another pitcher I could have sent out there" I told the coach the high pitch count will not happening again and I DO NOT appreciate your JV coach cursing my son out and telling him he lacked any heart. The coach said "We do not over work our pitchers" but I said coach you can look at my sheet and I keep all strikes, ball, hits etc so my son can see how it threw and what he can work on. (Also the last two weeks the JV coach has made more cursing comments even during the game)

How would you have handle this,I thought I did fine and made my point.

Honestly, you handled it very well.

My husband may have had his hands around someone's throat.

It's not your son's problem if the coach has no more pitching. He has to figure something else out. I remember son's freshman year in college, they went off one night to a game, left some pitchers home, ran out of pitching, coach just sent in someone to eat up innings, the heck with the W-L at that point. He was not going to leave a pitcher out there longer than he had to. Some coaches just get so caught up, they forget to think.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Under no circumstances should a parent ever speak to a coach about roster decisions, playing time, game strategies, etc.

BUT it is your duty to speak up if any child's health is jeopardized, and if it is your child, you are the primary person with responsibility.

It is not sufficient to leave this to your son to handle. To him, the coach is an authority figure and in many cases there is intimidation involved. This requires an approach from someone who is the equal of the coach, i.e., an adult.

I totally agree. When my son was 14, his select team coach had him throw 186 pitches in a game. That led to serious problems--damage to the growth plate, tendonitis, bursitis, and a slight tear to the labum. This was when Viox was still legal and the ortho put him on a rehab program and with Viox and he eventually recovered, although it took two years for his fb to get back to where it had been. This is criminal behavior on the coach's part, imo. In fact, the next day (this was during a tournament), the coach had him play 1B. During pregame warmups, catching flyballs, my son couldn't throw the ball back in, so he'd catch it, hand it to his teammate who'd throw it back. When the game began, in the first inning he fielded a grounder and then threw to home to catch the runner coming from third. He didn't make the throw. It went about ten feet and he screamed in pain and went down. The coach went out to check him and then, instead of taking him out, sent him to play right field and told the centerfielder that if my son caught the ball to take it from him and throw it back in.

There are some real idiots out there. I wasn't there or it would have been a different story. Anyway, last fall my son and I were interviewed on MSNBC-News as "authorities" on youth baseball and they wanted our opinion on the Little League just-passed rules about pitch counts. I forget what they set the pc at, but what we told the interviewer was that it was a small step in the right direction--overall pitch counts--but, like a lot of coaches it was an incomplete law. There are times when other factors need to be considered that the LL rule wasn't taking into account. For instance, a kid's pitch count may be say, 75 pitches in a game. Well, if he throws 40 pitches in a single inning, say, he needs to be taken out, even if he isn't at the overall pitch count. That's too many pitches in a single inning without a break. This is just one example. There are many other mitigating factors a sound baseball pitching coach will take into account to make a proper decision on if the boy should stay in or not. Also, how the boy "feels" is mostly meaningless. Some injuries that occur during outings don't show up sometimes until a year or so later.

One thing that bothers me also is that lots of coaches don't know how to properly warm up pitchers or other players. I see far too many guys having their kids throw to warm up and lots of injuries occur because of that. The proper sequence is to have the kids run to warm up the large muscles, then stretch, and only then, throw.

Blue skies