in a pretty big game down in texas the other night, a big, hard thowing kid [who has signed a d-1 letter] went 156 pitches. it was a big game, the district lead was on the line, but is it just me, or is that crazy???
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That's crazy. I heard on TV last night that Scott Shields once threw 261 pitches in a college game!
One thing is obvious, at least to me, is that HS pitcher throwing 156 pitches in a game is that he is certainly not finding the strike zone--- why is still on the mound if he cannot find the strike zone?
That coach ought to be hung up by his toenails!
Here's the story...
http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/040705/hig_040705020.shtml
The Plainsmen (16-5, 3-1) wasted a gutsy performance by senior right-hander Chase Phillips, who threw 156 pitches and struck out 13 in eight innings. Phillips - who also belted his second home run of the season - struggled with his control early on, allowing six earned runs, seven hits and five walks through the first three-plus innings.
But Phillips got stronger as the game progressed, retiring 15 of the last 17 hitters he faced without giving up a hit.
Here's the story...
http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/040705/hig_040705020.shtml
The Plainsmen (16-5, 3-1) wasted a gutsy performance by senior right-hander Chase Phillips, who threw 156 pitches and struck out 13 in eight innings. Phillips - who also belted his second home run of the season - struggled with his control early on, allowing six earned runs, seven hits and five walks through the first three-plus innings.
But Phillips got stronger as the game progressed, retiring 15 of the last 17 hitters he faced without giving up a hit.
I know that 156 pitches is alot ..but whats the avg that a high school kid can pitch, say a junior that pitched his whole life from little league to now, my son pitched 94 yesterday in 7 innings, with the proper rest. my son is that junior i'am talking about i guess. thanks
Hirrel,
If it is the beginning of the season, I find that too much, mid season to end ok, but how many times a week does he do that?
156 pitches the coach AND parents should be ashamed. And I am with TR, he couldn't find much obviously. What did they do wait for a 75 pitch count before he found the strike zone! That is abuse!
Gets me soooo
!
If it is the beginning of the season, I find that too much, mid season to end ok, but how many times a week does he do that?
156 pitches the coach AND parents should be ashamed. And I am with TR, he couldn't find much obviously. What did they do wait for a 75 pitch count before he found the strike zone! That is abuse!
Gets me soooo
!
How about a HS Freshman that throws 146? We played one a couple of weeks ago and had that happen. He walked a few, gave up a few hits, and his team made some errors. He went 7 innings. We won in the 8th.
I wasn't keeping count, but I notice around the 5th that he seemed to be throwing a lot. His mother is a friend who told me the number after the game. I told her to make that coach knock it off, and I told the kid too.
I wasn't keeping count, but I notice around the 5th that he seemed to be throwing a lot. His mother is a friend who told me the number after the game. I told her to make that coach knock it off, and I told the kid too.
Wouldn't shock me if there were some parents blaming the loss on the coach because he pulled him. Did anyone notice the article said it was a cool and breezy night? Quite the prescription for arm damage.
TigerPaw-
It was his frist game on the hill this spring. the season started on 4-5, they had 2 games thus far. he pitchs 1 time a week(starts) and sometimes he closes in the same week. 2or3 games a week, he's their#2 starter. i say by mid season his pitch count drops about 10 to 15. is that still to high?, by the end of the season it's about 65-75 avg pitch count in 7 innings. thank-you. p.s nice to hear from you.
It was his frist game on the hill this spring. the season started on 4-5, they had 2 games thus far. he pitchs 1 time a week(starts) and sometimes he closes in the same week. 2or3 games a week, he's their#2 starter. i say by mid season his pitch count drops about 10 to 15. is that still to high?, by the end of the season it's about 65-75 avg pitch count in 7 innings. thank-you. p.s nice to hear from you.
Hirrel, 94 pitches first time out is a good 30 too many. You have to work up to it.
Did anyone see that piece on ESPN this morning about the pitchers with the broken arms.
Did anyone see that piece on ESPN this morning about the pitchers with the broken arms.
Hirrel,
I personally feel 94 pitches first time on the hill is a lot. Dave always started 40-50 pitches then worked up to the max 90ish, by the end of the season, maybe a shy bit more.
I don't know what to tell you, to each his own, one never knows when too much is too much, everyone is different and there is different theories about easier pitches one can throw have a higher pitch count.
Remember, every pitch thrown is stress on the arm. I would tend to be a little cautious if you think your son has a future in baseball.
Just my opinion.
I personally feel 94 pitches first time on the hill is a lot. Dave always started 40-50 pitches then worked up to the max 90ish, by the end of the season, maybe a shy bit more.
I don't know what to tell you, to each his own, one never knows when too much is too much, everyone is different and there is different theories about easier pitches one can throw have a higher pitch count.
Remember, every pitch thrown is stress on the arm. I would tend to be a little cautious if you think your son has a future in baseball.
Just my opinion.
TPM-
Very good thanks.
DOOER-
Was that both arms, and was it anything to do with baseball that his arms was broken.
Very good thanks.
DOOER-
Was that both arms, and was it anything to do with baseball that his arms was broken.
quote:but is it just me, or is that crazy???
No, it's not you. It is crazy. Coaches more worried about a $50 trophy than a kids arm make me sick.
Hirrel,
Take a look at MLB pitch counts this early in the season and compare their numbers to yours. After that, let me know what you think.
FYI, the MLB guys have been on throwing programs since January (they don't just start at spring training).
Take a look at MLB pitch counts this early in the season and compare their numbers to yours. After that, let me know what you think.
FYI, the MLB guys have been on throwing programs since January (they don't just start at spring training).
I saw a College all american this year throw 148 pitches through 8 innings his team was winning by 8 runs, and the college coach had him finish the game, or 161 pitches. Coach had a fun time explaining why he left him in the whole game and what does that say to the rest of your pitchers on your staff
who did the coach have to explain to?!?
The pitch count thing!!! I know some associations have rules how many innings kids can pitch a calendar week. this was done to prevent coaches from overusing pitchers. since everybody is concerned about this pitch count thing I guess they should invoke a rule to limit the number of pitches??? Seems like there are rules for everything else?
quote:Coach had a fun time explaining why he left him in the whole game and what does that say to the rest of your pitchers on your staff
I watched pitch counts and pitcher abuse points of college coaches that called my kid. I am not alone.
Here are the ASMI recommended limits.
Pitch Count and Other ASMI Recommendations
Pitch Counts
Age Max. /Pitches Per Game/ Max. Games Per Week
8-10 52 2
11-12 68 2
13-14 76 2
15-16 91 2
17-18 106 2
Recovery Times
Age 1 Day Rest 2 Day Rest 3 Day Rest 4 Day Rest
8-10 21 34 43 51
11-12 27 35 55 58
13-14 30 36 56 70
15-16 25 38 62 77
17-18 27 45 62 89
Age Recommendation For Learning Various Pitches
The survey also presented recommendations for the age at which a player could learn different types of pitches. These are listed below.
Survey - Age Recommendation for Learning Various Pitches
Pitch Age
Fastball 8 - 10
Change-Up 10 - 13
Curve ball 14 - 16
Knuckle ball 15 - 18
Slider 16 - 18
Fork ball 16 - 18
Screw ball 17 - 19
Pitch Count Plus Other Factors
Other factors to take into account as you determine, "How many pitches should I allow my player to pitch?".
Some Additional ASMI Survey Conclusions:
A pitcher should be limited to two appearances per week.
Participation in multiple leagues, playing other positions, and practice should be considered when defining and regulating rest.
Improper technique is a major factor in injury potential.
Conditioning of the throwing arm and entire body can reduce a young pitcher's risk of injury.
While the number of pitches should be limited, the young athlete should be encouraged to throw. This includes playing catch, playing other positions besides pitcher, and practicing pitching. When symptoms of arm discomfort or fatigue arise, longer periods of rest are recommended.
You can find the complete ASMI research at: http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/youth/PITCHCNT.PDF
Pitch Count and Other ASMI Recommendations
Pitch Counts
Age Max. /Pitches Per Game/ Max. Games Per Week
8-10 52 2
11-12 68 2
13-14 76 2
15-16 91 2
17-18 106 2
Recovery Times
Age 1 Day Rest 2 Day Rest 3 Day Rest 4 Day Rest
8-10 21 34 43 51
11-12 27 35 55 58
13-14 30 36 56 70
15-16 25 38 62 77
17-18 27 45 62 89
Age Recommendation For Learning Various Pitches
The survey also presented recommendations for the age at which a player could learn different types of pitches. These are listed below.
Survey - Age Recommendation for Learning Various Pitches
Pitch Age
Fastball 8 - 10
Change-Up 10 - 13
Curve ball 14 - 16
Knuckle ball 15 - 18
Slider 16 - 18
Fork ball 16 - 18
Screw ball 17 - 19
Pitch Count Plus Other Factors
Other factors to take into account as you determine, "How many pitches should I allow my player to pitch?".
Some Additional ASMI Survey Conclusions:
A pitcher should be limited to two appearances per week.
Participation in multiple leagues, playing other positions, and practice should be considered when defining and regulating rest.
Improper technique is a major factor in injury potential.
Conditioning of the throwing arm and entire body can reduce a young pitcher's risk of injury.
While the number of pitches should be limited, the young athlete should be encouraged to throw. This includes playing catch, playing other positions besides pitcher, and practicing pitching. When symptoms of arm discomfort or fatigue arise, longer periods of rest are recommended.
You can find the complete ASMI research at: http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/youth/PITCHCNT.PDF
Our coach probably won't even let the starter get over 80 pitches it seems.
Today we had a kid go 6 innings and only give up 1 hit and no runs on 69 pitches and the coach lifted him for a reliever in the 7th. Needless to say the pitcher was extremely unhappy.
So far the most pitches any one of our starters has thrown is 74.
Today we had a kid go 6 innings and only give up 1 hit and no runs on 69 pitches and the coach lifted him for a reliever in the 7th. Needless to say the pitcher was extremely unhappy.
So far the most pitches any one of our starters has thrown is 74.
The ESPN piece was about a pitcher (sorry I have a memory block when it comes to names) who was making his 3rd comeback after breaking his pitching arm while pitching. It also covered a few other guys that it also has happened to. One of them I think was Browning, of the Cincy Reds. He theorized that in his case, he threw too much too soon after a layoff.
Think Dave Dravecky of the Giants. I personally have seen it happen to a kid in LL and it is a horrible sight.
Think Dave Dravecky of the Giants. I personally have seen it happen to a kid in LL and it is a horrible sight.
I too worry about players who throw a lot of pitches, especially early in the season. In high school, as with most, was limited early in the season. At the end of his senior season, during a very competitive northern Cal vs southern Cal all-star game, he threw for 8 innings and still only had 116 pitches.
Breaking an arm while throwing, however, is a pretty rare occurrence and may or may not be related to excessive throwing. As far as Dave Dravecky's case is concerned, the fracture in his arm was directly related to the cancer that had previously been treated and was subsequently the cause for the amputation of his arm after the break. So, I really don't think we can include him in this discussion due to the extreme extenuating circumstances.
Breaking an arm while throwing, however, is a pretty rare occurrence and may or may not be related to excessive throwing. As far as Dave Dravecky's case is concerned, the fracture in his arm was directly related to the cancer that had previously been treated and was subsequently the cause for the amputation of his arm after the break. So, I really don't think we can include him in this discussion due to the extreme extenuating circumstances.
And the excuse I hear often from high school coaches is, "I don't want you to play travel ball because they will overuse your arm." This statement was used by a coach who pitched his #1 pitcher 140+ pitches and brought him back to the mound on TWO days rest for five more innings. 
By the way, we (Alabama Bombers) limit our pitchers to a maximum of 4 innings and/or 85 pitches. While I have seen some abuses among summer teams, most protect players arms very well.
By the way, we (Alabama Bombers) limit our pitchers to a maximum of 4 innings and/or 85 pitches. While I have seen some abuses among summer teams, most protect players arms very well.
Yesterday was the first time I was concerend about pitch count for my 15 yr old. I knew going into the top of the 7th that he was at 90+. I was relieved when he had a 5 pitch 7th innning. Turns out he threw 104 in 7.
This was his first start, didn't appear to tire and was throwing well throughout. He has thrown at least once a week since December and everyday since March. He won't pitch again for 6 days.
104 still too much?
BTW- are the pregame pitches and the 7 or 8 warmup pitches per innning factored into this?
This was his first start, didn't appear to tire and was throwing well throughout. He has thrown at least once a week since December and everyday since March. He won't pitch again for 6 days.
104 still too much?
BTW- are the pregame pitches and the 7 or 8 warmup pitches per innning factored into this?
Pre Game and Inning Warmups are not included in a pitch count
Keep in mind too that any pitch count has to be judged by how strenuous the innings pitched were. Did he struggle have a high pitch inning, say 30 pitches? If not then 104 is not a bad number especially if he did not throw a lot of curves/.
15 pitches per inning is not too much here, at least to my way of thinking, especially since your son had been throwing regularly and is in better shape than most pitchers at this time of the year in our region.
Obviously the 5 pitch 7th inning showed he had a lot left in the tank.
How does he feel today?
Can he play catch with minimum tightness in his arm?
That is the key
Keep in mind too that any pitch count has to be judged by how strenuous the innings pitched were. Did he struggle have a high pitch inning, say 30 pitches? If not then 104 is not a bad number especially if he did not throw a lot of curves/.
15 pitches per inning is not too much here, at least to my way of thinking, especially since your son had been throwing regularly and is in better shape than most pitchers at this time of the year in our region.
Obviously the 5 pitch 7th inning showed he had a lot left in the tank.
How does he feel today?
Can he play catch with minimum tightness in his arm?
That is the key
DAD-
Thank-you, that's what i was looking for. my son is right on track according to that list you gave us. my son has been working all winter on his pitching/hitting with professional trainers, i guess there was a lot of foul balls that game he pitched 94 pitchs.
Thank-you, that's what i was looking for. my son is right on track according to that list you gave us. my son has been working all winter on his pitching/hitting with professional trainers, i guess there was a lot of foul balls that game he pitched 94 pitchs.
Hirrel, 94 pitches on what I assume was his first outing of the season since your season started 4/5 is too much. Throwing that many pitches and then coming in 2-3 times that week to close is definately asking for trouble.
Our starters are on a 4 day rotation (unless you're a closer) and our season started 3/31/05. None have thrown that many pitches.
Our starters are on a 4 day rotation (unless you're a closer) and our season started 3/31/05. None have thrown that many pitches.
i think it was last year when a kid from kentucky or somewhere threw 132 pitches in a LLWS game against a team from Japan.
Hirrel
Based just on my experience, college coaches generally limit the first start to 75 pitches working up to 100+ over the next start or two. They find that when they let the counts get up over 125, some pitchers can have bad next outings.
I'm not saying it should never happen. Smart coaches try to leave some gas in the tank for when they really need that win from their big guns, in playoffs.
For example, on March 27 Jeramy Simmons who is a 5th year Sr Righty with U. of South Alabama picked up a complete game 6-2 victory over U. of Louisiana at Lafayette. ULL counted 154 pitches for him. He pitched a great game. I was there to see it.
Six days later he went 2.2 innings giving up 4 earned runs to New Mexico State, at home. Today against FIU in Miami he went 4.2 innings giving up 5 earned runs. His ERA has gone up to 4.21 from 3.17 in he last 7.1 innings.
He lost his edge getting over stretched out, IMO.
U So. AL Stats 2005
I doubt high school kids are better equipped to handle high pitch counts than college kids.
Based just on my experience, college coaches generally limit the first start to 75 pitches working up to 100+ over the next start or two. They find that when they let the counts get up over 125, some pitchers can have bad next outings.
I'm not saying it should never happen. Smart coaches try to leave some gas in the tank for when they really need that win from their big guns, in playoffs.
For example, on March 27 Jeramy Simmons who is a 5th year Sr Righty with U. of South Alabama picked up a complete game 6-2 victory over U. of Louisiana at Lafayette. ULL counted 154 pitches for him. He pitched a great game. I was there to see it.
Six days later he went 2.2 innings giving up 4 earned runs to New Mexico State, at home. Today against FIU in Miami he went 4.2 innings giving up 5 earned runs. His ERA has gone up to 4.21 from 3.17 in he last 7.1 innings.
He lost his edge getting over stretched out, IMO.
U So. AL Stats 2005
I doubt high school kids are better equipped to handle high pitch counts than college kids.
my coach told me a story of his nefew or something who was this great pitcher and everything but every start his coach would have him through a crazy amount of innings and pitches... he through a lot of complete games... the kid was a fireballer 2 but then he had to get tommoy johns surgey because of all the innings and pitches he threw... my coach was really pissed off his nefew's career is preatty much over...so i think 110 pitches max for a college pitcher... even 110 is a lot in my mind but i could b wrong
In my second outing of the year after a long basketball season without alot of throwing i threw 150 pitches.it was the most i have ever thrown before.I come back 4 days later and throw 90.Boy am i feeling it today! And my dad wasn't to happy.
My son threw 120 in his first varsity start (league game) for his school. I am very concerned especially being early in the year and the chilly N.E. temps. What was even more upsetting was the pitch calling as about half were CB's.
Too many pitches. Now the pitch calling. Should we know include in the pitch count the number of curve balls. They count as more? I know I am being sarcastic but there has to be some agreement as to why the obsession. Coaches have to have a feel for the game and those who play it. You make a lineup out and put kids in a position to help the team who bats where etc etc. You should have the same feel for the pitchers. Who can and who can't. again a feel. As far as pitch counts are concerned if a kid is in the 3rd inning and has thrown 70 pitches things are probably not going well. Common sense. I have my best pitcher having a bad day I get him out of there. I need him later. Common sense.
How about this one? Visiting team comes from upstate New York for their first game of the season. Due to a late snowfall, this is also their first time outside. They have a doubleheader scheduled with us and another doubleheader the next day. Their starting pitcher in the first game throws 129 pitches, 20 or so of the last 30 being nowhere near the plate and at least 10 mph slower than at the beginning of the game. When he is finally take out, he goes to shortstop where he plays for the rest of Game 1 and all of the second game. Between games I overheard his coaches discussing whether they would start him the next day in the first game or the second.
After the game I asked the kid if he was really going to pitch without any rest, and he said that that was what the coach had told him.
After the game I asked the kid if he was really going to pitch without any rest, and he said that that was what the coach had told him.
Watched a HS game last night where the opposing pitcher, a senior with a D1 scholarship and pro scouts in the stands, threw into the ninth inning and was at 157 pitches when he threw a pitch and literally doubled over in pain holding his arm. The opposing coach and trainer came out to look at him, tried to massage the arm for awhile (like they thought he could still pitch?), then finally pulled him ... then moved him to 3B. The fans on both sides of the stands made a lot of noise until the coach finally pulled him off the field.
what a wimp. Couldn't he at least finish the inning? What inning was it, The 11th? Real Phi Beta Kappa's running that team. 
And their coach didn't ask him to pitch with his other arm? Definitely not thinking ...
Parents anywhere?????
HERE"S a coach that should be fired immediately. Stupidity exists in every state.
HERE"S a coach that should be fired immediately. Stupidity exists in every state.
The kid told our team's coach after the game that he felt a 'pop' in his elbow when he went down. Even after the coach relented in having him play 3B, he put him back in to play 1B and bat the bottom of the 9th.
A coach from the D1 college where the kid signed was in the stands watching ... I understand he was not happy.
Don't know about the kid's parents as it was the opposing team ... I know if it were my kid, I'd be having a frank and direct conversation with the coach long before approaching 157 pitches. Yes, the coach/player relationship rules on the field, but if the coach proves himself to be a bonafide idiot when given the chance to do the right thing, the parent/child relationship trumps it when it comes to protecting the health and future of the kid.
Looking up stats on prior games, this kid had pitched 15 innings across two complete games facing 61 batters in the prior 12 days, so add the nine inning game and you have 24 innings across three games and 103 batters faced in twelve days ... he faced 42 batters in the nine inning game.
Oh, and they lost anyway.
A coach from the D1 college where the kid signed was in the stands watching ... I understand he was not happy.
Don't know about the kid's parents as it was the opposing team ... I know if it were my kid, I'd be having a frank and direct conversation with the coach long before approaching 157 pitches. Yes, the coach/player relationship rules on the field, but if the coach proves himself to be a bonafide idiot when given the chance to do the right thing, the parent/child relationship trumps it when it comes to protecting the health and future of the kid.
Looking up stats on prior games, this kid had pitched 15 innings across two complete games facing 61 batters in the prior 12 days, so add the nine inning game and you have 24 innings across three games and 103 batters faced in twelve days ... he faced 42 batters in the nine inning game.
Oh, and they lost anyway.
quote:A coach from the D1 college where the kid signed was in the stands watching ... I understand he was not happy.
This stuff drives college coaches nuts.
quote:I know if it were my kid, I'd be having a frank and direct conversation with the coach long before approaching 157 pitches.
Proactivity is the key. If you think it can be an issue then it is prudent to inquire prior to the first game, what the pitch counts he will be working with.
Most coaches will get the message that abusing your son's arm will not go unnoticed and won't likely be tolerated. Of course you can just as likely expect the response to your inquiry to be
"I am the coach and I'll use the players as I see fit, cuz I'm the coach. Well, maybe we just won't pitch ----- at all this year."
Don't blink, look him straight in the eye and say "Coach, please do whatever is best for the team after the health of your players is handled."
Coach may not use the kid as much as he thought he was going to, but if he can help, then he will pitch.
Be a parent and DON'T BACK DOWN.