175 pitches!!

Happened to a teammate (a SR) of my son's in HS 4 years ago. 185 pitches. Pitched thru 8 innings. This was a tournament game (1 and done in Ohio end of year tournament). My son was sophomore and #2. Game went 9 and my son finally pitched in 9th. Knowledgeable parents on our team and on the other team were yelling. What the other teams parents did not know was that player had missed half the season with an arm injury and this was his 2nd outing of year. His future college coach was watching - steam coming out of his ears. His parents were into it (idiots but nice people). He lasted thru the fall of his freshman year in college then had another arm injury. Never played again. 

One of many reasons why I felt like our HS coach was not a capable coach. He lasted two more years while AD built a case (thru my son's senior year). He had sued the school when a  previous coach was hired outside school system while he who was  JV coach and teacher was not hired. They had to pay him varsity coaches wages for 2 years as part of settlement.  So when job came open son's sophomore year. They felt like they had to hire him. And we got what we got as a coach. 

roothog66 posted:

Go44dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

No, it's the coach.

Based on what? To take this stance, you have to take the position that it is universally accepted that this number is a line that the coach knew was abusive and crossed it anyway. Believe it or not, there are still some old school coaches that think the pitch counts are ridiculous and that the coaches are better positioned to know how many a kid can safely throw based on a number of factors. There are also still some holdouts, including several old HOF pitchers, who contend that restricting pitch counts is actually making the problem worse (not taking that position, just pointing out that they are out there). So, when the state association refuses to step in and say, "we, as an organization, are taking the stance that elevated pitch counts represent a problem and are putting in place preventative measures" then a coach can decide if he wants to continue to coach under the rules or retire from coaching. Alternatively, the school board that hires a coach can put such restrictions on the coach. However, to retroactively tell a coach his assessment is wrong and that he broke some unwritten rule and fire him because his professional opinion on how many pitches a kid can safely throw on a Tuesday afternoon is capricious and could lead to problems. You want to be able to hold a coach responsible for his professional opinion then enforceable guidelines have to be in place. It's incredibly difficult for a school or a state organization to punish a coach for breaking a pitch limit when it didn't have the balls to put limits in place themselves.

Based on it was 175 pitches.

Are you a lawyer in real life?

Go44dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Go44dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

No, it's the coach.

Based on what? To take this stance, you have to take the position that it is universally accepted that this number is a line that the coach knew was abusive and crossed it anyway. Believe it or not, there are still some old school coaches that think the pitch counts are ridiculous and that the coaches are better positioned to know how many a kid can safely throw based on a number of factors. There are also still some holdouts, including several old HOF pitchers, who contend that restricting pitch counts is actually making the problem worse (not taking that position, just pointing out that they are out there). So, when the state association refuses to step in and say, "we, as an organization, are taking the stance that elevated pitch counts represent a problem and are putting in place preventative measures" then a coach can decide if he wants to continue to coach under the rules or retire from coaching. Alternatively, the school board that hires a coach can put such restrictions on the coach. However, to retroactively tell a coach his assessment is wrong and that he broke some unwritten rule and fire him because his professional opinion on how many pitches a kid can safely throw on a Tuesday afternoon is capricious and could lead to problems. You want to be able to hold a coach responsible for his professional opinion then enforceable guidelines have to be in place. It's incredibly difficult for a school or a state organization to punish a coach for breaking a pitch limit when it didn't have the balls to put limits in place themselves.

Based on it was 175 pitches.

Are you a lawyer in real life?

Yeah, I am. However, you don't have to understand that punishing someone based on standards that aren't articulated and are arbitrary is neither fair nor a good idea. I mean, what standard are you using here? What's the cutoff number of pitches at which you decide a coach gets fired? Give me a number and explain why one pitch under that number allows a coach to keep his job. I have absolutely no problem with punishing a coach that works under a set of pitch count rules. I also don't have a problem with shaming coaches who do something like this. Often, public shaming goes a long way toward inducing behavioral change. What I have a problem with is threatening someone's livelihood on standards the coach didn't know he was obliged to follow.

Root, I already knew you were a lawyer....total troll move by me and I accept full accountability.

I didn't say fire.  I'm fine with Colorado pitch counts and hope they institute similar in my home state of Texas.

I see both sides of this. I agree it is hard to pinpoint a specific number.  I also agree we don't really know for sure exactly what causes arm injury. And it is undeniable that many old timers threw ridiculous amounts of pitches and innings without harm. However in this day and age - and given the uncertainty I would say 175 pitches is fairly idiotic. And maybe someday it will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that pitch counts don't matter.  But maybe it will be proven that they do.  Let's error on the safe side.  But root I do agree we have gone too far.  Think of all we threw as kids in the old days.  Even when we played whiffle ball we threw absolutely as hard as we could.  And we played for hours!  This goes to the point PG always makes that kids throw as hard as they can with or without radar guns and with or without scouts watching for that matter (not a lot of scouts at our whiffle ball games). We probably need to seek out a middle ground here. Just not sure 175 pitches is a good place to start!

P.s. We used to tape our whiffle balls and give them a little more weight specifically so we could throw/hit them harder!

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a proponent of pitch counts and even think Colorado's should include one more day of rest. I also don't think it's ridiculous to be upset with this coach. If it were my kid...

My only issue is with the idea that we call for a coaches head based on a pitch count when neither the school, the state organization, nor the national organization was willing to take a stand and develop sensible guidelines. I can see a coach who truly believes he's doing nothing wrong. That's where those who run things have to step in.

roothog66 posted:

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a proponent of pitch counts and even think Colorado's should include one more day of rest. I also don't think it's ridiculous to be upset with this coach. If it were my kid...

My only issue is with the idea that we call for a coaches head based on a pitch count when neither the school, the state organization, nor the national organization was willing to take a stand and develop sensible guidelines. I can see a coach who truly believes he's doing nothing wrong. That's where those who run things have to step in.

If it were your kid, would you be upset?

That's the issue with me this is a KID. And it doesn't matter what he will be doing for the rest of his life.

One question, are HS games 8 innings long?  Anyone?  Here is it not, maybe there?  

And 175 pitches in 8 innings is over 20 pitches per inning to make 3 outs. Not what you want your pitcher's goal to be.  

Any coach that allows this for ONE player, means he will allow it for another.  Does he need to be called out, absolutely.

Let's get rid of the argument that old timers threw lots of innings, that was in another time, in a galaxy far, far away.  Everything was different back then, including the use of drugs to kill the pain and to make you feel better before you hit the mound. if you ever have a chance to hear it from one of those old timers, you wouldn't believe half of what was done to get through a game.  

Talked to a dad last night.  His son is experiencing some elbow pain for the first time.  Dad has watched his kids pitch counts like a hawk. Very responsible guy.  Coaches have complied along the way.  Praying for him that it is nothing serious. And while I think we all still agree 175 pitches is too many.  I think we are also all forced to agree it is not settled science yet what causes arm injury.  And I more and more am coming to believe you are either predisposed or you're not. 

2020dad posted:

Talked to a dad last night.  His son is experiencing some elbow pain for the first time.  Dad has watched his kids pitch counts like a hawk. Very responsible guy.  Coaches have complied along the way.  Praying for him that it is nothing serious. And while I think we all still agree 175 pitches is too many.  I think we are also all forced to agree it is not settled science yet what causes arm injury.  And I more and more am coming to believe you are either predisposed or you're not. 

I believe that all bodies are built differently.  I could give you an example with my own when he was with the Cardinals. 

As careful as we were with son, in HS he developed  tendinitis, forcing him to miss sophomore fall ball.   

That's even more reason to be careful, because you just don't know.  If it had occurred junior fall, well that would have hurt him in recruiting.

I think that is the point that many of us who have been down the road are trying to convey, but some posters just don't want to hear it.  

2020dad posted:

Talked to a dad last night.  His son is experiencing some elbow pain for the first time.  Dad has watched his kids pitch counts like a hawk. Very responsible guy.  Coaches have complied along the way.  Praying for him that it is nothing serious. And while I think we all still agree 175 pitches is too many.  I think we are also all forced to agree it is not settled science yet what causes arm injury.  And I more and more am coming to believe you are either predisposed or you're not. 

Could it be that a pitcher with mechanics that are injurious will get injured no matter what pitch counts he’s held to? OF COURSE! Could it be that a pitcher with perfect mechanics and that is held to pitch counts agreed to be the least likely to cause injury will get injured? OF COURSE! But that’s never been in question! Pitch counts have never been touted as stopping injury by anyone with even a modicum of intelligence.

Would you espouse dropping all pitching limitations at all levels and leave everything in the hands the coaches or managers.

Stats4Gnats posted:

2020dad posted:

Talked to a dad last night.  His son is experiencing some elbow pain for the first time.  Dad has watched his kids pitch counts like a hawk. Very responsible guy.  Coaches have complied along the way.  Praying for him that it is nothing serious. And while I think we all still agree 175 pitches is too many.  I think we are also all forced to agree it is not settled science yet what causes arm injury.  And I more and more am coming to believe you are either predisposed or you're not. 

 

Could it be that a pitcher with mechanics that are injurious will get injured no matter what pitch counts he’s held to? OF COURSE! Could it be that a pitcher with perfect mechanics and that is held to pitch counts agreed to be the least likely to cause injury will get injured? OF COURSE! But that’s never been in question! Pitch counts have never been touted as stopping injury by anyone with even a modicum of intelligence.

 

Would you espouse dropping all pitching limitations at all levels and leave everything in the hands the coaches or managers.

Another strawman post, another insult, just another day for an often banned poster.

HS games are 7 innings. That is the Nat'l Fed HS rule. So this kid was averaging 25 pitches per inning...if 175 is accurate.

my guess is the game went into extra innings he pitched 8. Anyway you slice it. Lots of pitches

To the OP. I have a hard time believing that this pitcher looked good in a tight game.With 25 pitches per inning if P even struck out the side he walked in a run every inning.My guy had worst outing since frosh. year last night.Avg.. 22 pitches per for time he was in.It was no where near pretty.Last 2 innings pitched did not throw consecutive strikes.Hard to see throwing 3 more pitches per could be anywhere near looking any better.

Go44dad posted:

Another strawman post, another insult, just another day for an often banned poster.

How is stating the truth and asking a question insulting or a strawman argument? You’re saying the same thing he is, i.e. there’s no reason for pitch limitations of any kind because whatever will be will be and can’t be affected, and there should never be any disagreement.

PROUDHESMINE,

Technically it is possible to throw 25 pitches to one hitter. We see many hitters foul off 4 or more pitches with two strikes.

However, you are right for the most part.  25 pitches in one inning usually means a run or more has scored.

The whole topic of pitch counts is kind of confusing.  While we know there are pitchers that fatigue early and pitchers that fatigue much later, no one can know until it happens.  So say you have a pitch count of "whatever" under 100.  How and when do we find out if he can go to 100 or more?  Stamina is found by pushing the limits in most everything. not saying a pitcher that is capable of going 150 pitches should throw that many, but obviously he should have very little problem going 100.  But at some point a pitcher will have to throw his highest number of pitches.  If the rules say 100 is the most anyone can throw, nobody will ever push the envelope when it comes to stamina.  No one could possibly have all the answers, but at some point in time every pitcher that ever lived has set a new personal recortd for number of pitches he has thrown.  So the question is... if a pitcher is capable of throwing 125 pitches, that happens a lot, but the rules only allow 100 pitches, would he be better at those 100 pitches if he were conditioned for more than a hundred?  Or not?It's just not so easy coming up with the answer when it comes to pitch counts.  I do think it is a bit easier to come up with a standard for recovery time.

All that said, I'm a big believer in monitoring pitch counts and having rules in place.  The rules would eliminate a lot of the overly abusiveness that currently takes place.  That is why I am a big believer in PitchSmart and pitch count rules, for high school and younger.  Training to go more than the rules should take place after high school.  College and professional baseball would love it because they could still accurately evaluate pitchers and know they wont be getting as many half injured arms.

Any pitcher that can't show his ability in 100 pitches, isn't going to show scouts and recruiters anything they want or need to see after he has thrown 100.  His velocity is not going to all of a sudden increase. While it might show competitiveness, that only matters if he has shown enough talent.  Truth is most scouts get a very good feel for what they are seeing within 20 pitches.  Then they want to see if that pitcher can maintain that for the entire appearance.  Doesn't take more than 100 pitches to show that.

This is just the way I see things.  I will admit that I don't know it all.  I just wish everyone felt that way, so we can truly learn much more about all this stuff.

Let's not forget the problem is overuse.  Overuse is not really a one time event.  It is a cumulative effect.  One game with a lot of pitches does not automatically equal a problem.  It is the repetitive games, practices, and the like without sufficient rest which creates the problem.  So before I "hang" this guy, I want to know what he does over a period of time. 

baseballmom posted:

HS games are 7 innings. That is the Nat'l Fed HS rule. So this kid was averaging 25 pitches per inning...if 175 is accurate.

So, obviously the game was tied at one point and the coach still kept the pitcher in?  

Sounds to me that maybe the guy rides his pitchers so hard he had no arms left.

But some of you feel this is not abuse!

Late to this party, but what the heck.   I agree that somebody should have stopped this kid throwing....not sure when, but 110 seems plenty to me, grandparents in the stands, or not.  Read somewhere else that desire to win is the reason this kind of thing gets out of hand.  Have to agree with that, and not sure of a remedy.

smokeminside posted:

Late to this party, but what the heck.   I agree that somebody should have stopped this kid throwing....not sure when, but 110 seems plenty to me, grandparents in the stands, or not.  Read somewhere else that desire to win is the reason this kind of thing gets out of hand.  Have to agree with that, and not sure of a remedy.

A question... Does anyone here know a pitcher that actually pitches in games year around?  The reason I ask is because I don't know of anyone that actually does that in this country.

Where I live is barely in the country, but, yeah, kids here pitch year round.  Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.  The problem as I see it is that no one wants their kid to fall behind while other kids are playing year round.  So they succumb to the pressure.  I'm grateful my kids play soccer too but the sport overlaps by a month with baseball here, so, ironically, it's their lack of throwing that endangers their arms.

 

I think what PG was trying to get at was "pitching in GAMES, year 'round"

Meaning...kid (a) throws 8-10 innings per week, in actual games, the entire year, to include the winter.  New Years Eve doubleheader, anyone?!?!?  This was how I read his comments anyhow.

Pitching year round to me is never stopping for complete rest, especially if you put in a lot of innings during games. You may not be playing  but you may be doing showcases, camps, etc. on a regular basis.

Because of early recruiting and the point that folks think that their players will miss out on something could hold the key to increased injury. 

Golfman25 posted:

Let's not forget the problem is overuse.  Overuse is not really a one time event.  It is a cumulative effect.  One game with a lot of pitches does not automatically equal a problem.  It is the repetitive games, practices, and the like without sufficient rest which creates the problem.  So before I "hang" this guy, I want to know what he does over a period of time. 

I wholeheartedly agree! The problem with HS is there’s no entity actually monitoring what’s going on, even if they could.

There are a few whackadoo numbers guys like myself who not only have the data and the ability to look at it, but the desire to do it. But for the most part looking at what’s already taken place relative to actual rest and “recommended” rest doesn’t exist. Out of curiosity I decided to do that to see just how bad the pitchers I’ve scored for have been treated. Please see the attached.

That’s a very simple report of every pitcher’s appearance for the more than 10 years of data I have or 826 HSV appearances. When the recommended rest was more than the actual rest I put a red box around the date of the appearance. I used the PitchSmart guidelines of no rest required for 0-30 pitches, 1 day for 21-35 pitches, 2 days for 36-50 pitches, 3 days for 61-75 pitches, and 4 days for anything over 76 pitches.

I was honestly a bit surprised there weren’t more times where the rest received wasn’t equal to or greater than the recommended rest, but the data is what it is. Keeping in mind that here in Ca we have the strictest HS pitching limitations at a max of 30 outs per week, the data I have may not be the best to make any kind of national judgment about. Does anyone out there have data for your state?

I have been hesitant to hop in on this topic as I am completely aware of the situation but I find it so amazingly bizarre that I now feel compelled to do so. 

I will say I am very biased toward coach. My son played three summers for this coach. My son would do anything for this coach. His all time favorite coach and molded him into the player and young man he has become. That is what has me so baffled.   Never saw anything like this. 

Long time HS coach.  First year at this particular school. School has zero tradition and has some talent this year.

Pitcher is a friend of my son as well and committed to a D1 school  My son talked to him after and he said he felt fine and wasn't coming out.  Not that it makes it right by any means. 

Im still very perplexed by the entire situation 

Since when is it up to a 17/18 yr old to decide how long he stays in?!?! It really should not be up to him. Obviously he wasn't "in the zone", or just may not be the pitcher he thinks he is. Once he gets to college, it certainly won't be his call! 

The point is this kid needs some leadership from his parents & this coach...He can feel fine...but this practice is an injury waiting to happen! 

Sounds like the inmates running the prison! 

P needs to educate himself if he thinks 175 is ok. Coaches, not players are responsible for running the game. Coach should have known better. 

Bet his D1 coach wouldn't be happy about it. He needs to come into Fall with a healthy arm.  Hope we don't hear about him here next yr with a story that he's out injured. 

proudhesmine posted:

To the OP. I have a hard time believing that this pitcher looked good in a tight game.With 25 pitches per inning if P even struck out the side he walked in a run every inning.My guy had worst outing since frosh. year last night.Avg.. 22 pitches per for time he was in.It was no where near pretty.Last 2 innings pitched did not throw consecutive strikes.Hard to see throwing 3 more pitches per could be anywhere near looking any better.

A kid for our local HS threw a no hitter the other day. 101 pitches in 6 innings. 15 K's. Lost 11-0. Weird things happen in HS baseball. Although it wouldn't be common for a kid to have that high a pitch count and be pitching good, it's definitely not impossible. 

Did I read that right? He pitched a no hitter with 15 Ks and lost 11-0?  Surely they must have won that game 11-0.

15 Ks would be a minimum 45 pitches even if he struck every out on only three pitches.

It is possible for a pitcher to have a no hitter and still lose. Son's fall ball team (local league) had a game where the ace pitcher threw a no hitter in a 1-0 loss.  Walked one batter in the 1st who eventually made his way to third via steals and passed balls.   Runner scored on a wild pitch/passed ball.  Son's team outhit them (6-7 hits) but never got the timely hit to drive any runs in.

Referring to the game mentioned above, even though the pitcher had 15 K's he must have had a lot of walks is the only thing I can think of.

Agree with PG Staff...how do you strike out 15 and only throw 101 pitches and lose 11-0? 

As he stated, if all K's were only three pitches - which is highly unlikely - that's 45 pitches. Also, if he had 11 walk and all were only four pitches - that's 44 pitches. 

That leaves only 12 pitches for anything else to happen. It's obviously possible but there would have to be several first or second pitches put in play with absolutely no defense and a bunch of errors. 

PGStaff posted:

Did I read that right? He pitched a no hitter with 15 Ks and lost 11-0?  Surely they must have won that game 11-0.

15 Ks would be a minimum 45 pitches even if he struck every out on only three pitches.

You read it right. Only one walk and one hit by pitch. All the rest were errors. 4 times and yes I said 4 times a kid scored after a strike out. Dropped third strike thrown into right field and right fielder threw ball into third base dugout. 4 times.  It was like watching some kind of a weird dream. Worst defense I've ever seen on a ball field. 

Its really simple,  tell your son if his arm is tired he does not pitch. tell the coach for every pitch he throws he gets an hour rest. have some balls and stick to it.  in the last week or so our high school coach had these numbers for the pitchers pitch counts. 

jr threw 126 pitches, 6 days later 109 ..... 6 days later he had an obvious lack of control of off-speed.  They ramped him up too fast. 

last night another jr pitcher was in the bullpen getting ready to come in... he threw 105 last Saturday and was going to come in and pitch Wednesday night... too early.... it's just not the pitches in the game, its getting your arm ready to throw again , warming it all up ... not to mention the bullpen pitches and between innings...  

2014..... threw 92 last week and I griped to the coaches that 80 is the number.... do they like hearing from me , not they do not.... I am very discreet when I contact them not to draw attention but I will and do stick to it and they know it. 

They the coaches obviously do not care or they would not have thrown the kid 126.... that's too many... 

Now 2013 and 2014 are scholar shipped they are 21 and 22 not 16.... different story as it will be for 2016 when he's that age.   High school coaches ( some not all) are not the smartest guys around...  take responsibility and stop asking the coaches , state, whoever to manage your own kid.

I'm with TPM..... these kids may never play past high school  but they might want to play golf, go fishing, etc.... and not have to have surgery... I had shoulder surgery... tore the supraspinatus , the subscapularis and popped the bicep tendon out of the groove.   You want a 16-18 year old to go through that ?

175 plus the warmup and between innings = 250 total.... insane. 

But I saw one go 180 total last night so it's not surprising.

P.S   you should have a year round arm care program

This was in the Dallas Morning news

http://sportsday.dallasnews.co...c-days-rest-pitching

I just watched a game Friday where the score was 12-0 at the top of the 5th. The starting pitcher was at 90+ pitches and the coach brought him back to pitch another inning. He was finally pulled from the mound after the 6th innning at 129 pitches according to our game changer. And then he was sent to center field to play the 7th inning. 

In our previous game against this school he threw 117 pitches. 

I still feel the limits discussed in the article are too high, but it's a start.

I've learned the hard way that is best to discuss max pitch count with your son before a game and have an arranged PC for him to pull himself out at an arranged signal.  

If the coach won't or can't manage his pitchers then that isn't your problem. 

We played an opponent Friday where the coach had to come get the guy in the second inning because he hit his max pitch count of 110 (yeah, in the second inning). Of course, I doubt he hurt himself given the lack of velocity. He then went directly to third base. Earlier in the year, we played a team where the kid hit 118 pitches (you're allowed to finish the batter when you hit 110) then came out and took a spot behind the plate.

bacdorslider posted:

 

2014..... threw 92 last week and I griped to the coaches that 80 is the number.... do they like hearing from me , not they do not.... I am very discreet when I contact them not to draw attention but I will and do stick to it and they know it. 

They the coaches obviously do not care or they would not have thrown the kid 126.... that's too many... 

Now 2013 and 2014 are scholar shipped they are 21 and 22 not 16.... different story as it will be for 2016 when he's that age.   High school coaches ( some not all) are not the smartest guys around...  take responsibility and stop asking the coaches , state, whoever to manage your own kid.

P.S   you should have a year round arm care program

Wait, just want to make sure I"m reading this right?  You're saying you griped to your sons' college coaches about his pitch count? 

The only way to prevent baseball pitcher injuries is to switch to underhand.  Some softball girls (fastpitch) will pitch 5 straight Saturday games (35 innings) and not even be sore the next day.