17u travel/showcase teams in nova

Agreed. We're covered, as my son is on one of the teams mentioned above. It is just not convenient for him to play on the Stars (45 minutes away), the Braves (2 Hours away) or the Canes (3 Hours away???). Not if he wants to have a life. Does that mean that the Canes and Braves players are all better than my son??? I know some of them and the answer is "no."

quote:

Does that mean that the Canes and Braves players are all better than my son??? I know some of them and the answer is "no."

Slightly defensive. Don't you think? My point was if your kid is playing the same position as the Coaches' kid, you might want to look around.

It reminds me of a game I was at and I asked a friend of mine "Why is John mad?" he replied "Because his son is not playing" me- "Is he any good?" friend - "Of course, he's the best kid on the team."

Ha....

I agree with your point.

quote:

In the end, it's not the team you play on

I wish I could say I agree with this...

However, I overheard two coaches talking at a showcase event and they said (and I quote) "since this team (I'll leave the team unnamed) is done playing we are leaving, there is no reason to stay and watch".

This might have been an isolated case? Who truly knows, but one can draw conclusions based on ones experiences and observations - you don't have to overhear to get the idea.....

The coaches were from a mid-level D1 and although my kid played for the team they were there to watch, I did feel bad about it, so much hope and so many dreams are placed on these showcase teams...

I think most would agree, it seems the more recognized teams play at the universities with all of the scouts/recruiters and the lesser recognized programs play at the local high schools with zero scouts/recruiters. Sure they WILL give the smaller teams a game or two, but it just seems that the more recognizable teams play at the bigger venues. I knew if my son was slated to pitch at a high school that the chances were not that great that it would be a productive weekend in terms of someone watching him play, but I never looked at showcasing solely from the recruiting standpoint. If you do, you might be TERRIBLY dis-appointed. It really bothers me that parents will be dis-appointed that their son didn't go D1 or that he didn't get a scholarship, you should NEVER be dis-appointed in your kid over baseball..... But I've seen it happen and it greatly disturbs me.....

I agree with gamefan, good, connected, coaches work very hard in the background.

So, based on my experience I would say it "can" matter which team you play on.

However, I'm a believer that it takes more than just the showcase circuits... There are lot's of good individual events and camps that are beneficial in addition to showcase teams....

To me, the more teams the merrier - there is execellent talent allover!

quote:

It is just not convenient for him to play on the Stars (45 minutes away), the Braves (2 Hours away) or the Canes (3 Hours away???)

I didn't think it mattered where you from because these teams don't normally hold practice - do they?

Some of the kids on these teams aren't even from Va.

Dutchman, As far as scout attendance, don't think the venue matters as much as the teams playing. Saw this past summer a major D1 college venue empty of college coaches during a showcase game because all the college coaches, including those from that college, were at a high school field where that field's schedule had one game after the other of very strong teams playing one another. That was not an isolated occurrence.

WB, not at all trying to dispute what you are saying, I'm certain that what you describe could and did happen, but I just never witnessed it to be the norm.....

quote:

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:

quote:

It is just not convenient for him to play on the Stars (45 minutes away), the Braves (2 Hours away) or the Canes (3 Hours away???)

I didn't think it mattered where you from because these teams don't normally hold practice - do they?

Some of the kids on these teams aren't even from Va.

I know some of them do hold practices...I've been told that some others do...I'm reasonably sure that some don't which probably makes sense for some that have kids from hours away, but they still could if they had enough "local" kids to make it worthwhile...

quote:

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:

quote:

It is just not convenient for him to play on the Stars (45 minutes away), the Braves (2 Hours away) or the Canes (3 Hours away???)

I didn't think it mattered where you from because these teams don't normally hold practice - do they?

You got it, Dutchman -- it doesn't matter where you're from; if the team's worth playing on for your son to get the exposure and competition he needs to be able to play at the next level, then "convenience" has to go out the window.

My son spent 2 years playing on the Braves '09 team, and it was invariably a 90-minute to 2-hour ride for us to get to even the closest game sites. But who cares? He played against the best competition in the country, on a team that received national exposure wherever it went. They practiced maybe once a season, and then we all just met at the game sites -- whether that was Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia or Florida...best move we ever made, given that it helped him get where he is playing and going to school today, and not once during those two years did either of us say "gee, this traveling sure is inconvenient...".

quote:

major D1 college venue empty of college coaches during a showcase game because all the college coaches, including those from that college, were at a high school field where that field's schedule had one game after the other of very strong teams playing one another. That was not an isolated occurrence.

I think the team's reputation trumps location. Not sure if many Scouts will show up to see a team without the pedigree. Also remember that the organizers of some of these Elite teams, are also the sponsors of the events. They do the scheduling. It's a win, win, for any player on the respective team.

quote:

Also remember that the organizers of some of these Elite teams, are also the sponsors of the events. They do the scheduling. It's a win, win, for any player on the respective team.

Good point......

quote:

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
WB, not at all trying to dispute what you are saying, I'm certain that what you describe could and did happen, but I just never witnessed it to be the norm.....

I have seen the same as WB. If 2 of the top teams are playing offsite, coaches definitely travel there. I have seen it with my own eyes.

quote:

If 2 of the top teams are playing offsite, coaches definitely travel there.

Of course they will, if they are 2 of the top teams - I've seen that many times as well....

But that's not what I was referring to, my initial reply was to the assertion that it doesn't matter which team you play on.

I think that it does (can) matter.

It is about which team you play for and which coach has all the connections.....and it really isn't.

The college coaches still have too SEE IT WITH THEIR OWN EYES, the talent that is.

Also
IMO The travel team is NOT about practice. It is about exposure and the chance to play against the best possible competition. That way your skills are being tested to the max!

What do I need to work on? It is a good thing to be humbled at times so we don't rest on our laurels.
The player WILL know if HE has a competitive desire to improve and be "all he can be".

Practice/Instruction needs be done on your own with the best coach in your area that you can afford.

The most important advice I can give parents is hype doesn't get scholarships.....desire and talent does. If your child doesn't have the dedication to strive to be the best he can be in the classroom and on the field, it doesn't matter what team your child is on.

quote:

The college coaches still have too SEE IT WITH THEIR OWN EYES, the talent that is.

That is exactly my point..... and they can't see it if you're on a team that's not drawing/driving the attention of the eyes.

AGREE 150% it is up to the player --- that is the VERY FIRST thing every showcase coach tells his parents and players. It is up to the player....

A coach/team can not get you a scholarship, their job, in part, is to put you in front of the eyes and give you the opportunity... and IMO some teams are better at that than others.

Man I can't wait for spring, this being snowed in is getting old!

Good discussion.

Yep...I like the discussion guys...We are just starting out at this..so it's good to hear everyone's opinion.

This weather does suck...It'll be nice once the fields dry out and the boys can get out there and do what they do.

Good discussion. Everyone's goal may not be the same. Some of you appear to have D-1 potential sons and are hoping for a scholarship. In my case, my son has been succesful on every level he's played but not in the top 5% of the travel ball teams he has played on. He's a junior now but is grade level young...that is, he will be 17 his whole senior year. He's simply hoping for a a few D-2 or D-3 coaches to see him and enable him to have an easier time as a walk-on. He loves the game and wants to play in college and someday be a high school coach. Time will tell, and it will probably require a year of junior college before the 4yr school...but that's his goal and plan...I'm fortunate in that I can support him.

I want to educate some folks, payer's beware!

I had a father (Woodbridge area) call me because he was at an ECU baseball hitting camp last winter of 2009 and he was talking to a mother (Vienna area) as they were talking about getting exposure for their kids.

She told this father(who happens to be a friend of mine) that Coach Milburn from Winchester helped my son and we've never met him personally. He was like, I know him, we've played baseball together.

So my friend calls me as we had a pretty lengthy discussion ... This father said, Jeff the perception down here is that if you do not belong to XYZ baseball organization, then they do not care about you.

Well, I said, I will test your theory. I e-mailed an high school coach who belongs to XYZ baseball showcase organization and he clearly stated, "I don't know anything about him"

I relayed that information the father and he states, "Jeff, I thought so and I find that hard to believe, because my son stood out in several games when his team beat that high school coaches team".

This father futhermore explained, we played XYZ showcase team and our team which was basically locals, tied this high-profiled team and needless to say, we'll never have an opportunity to play them again. I said why is that? He said, well our kids played $150 bucks for the summer and those guys paid several thousand dollars to play on that XYZ organization.

Now ... you tell me what is wrong with this scenario which is very much TRUE as I have copies of the e-mail dialog.

I could very easy do a "cut-n-paste" about this high-profiled organization which I am considering. The high school coach knows who he is and if he reads this, he will remember.

BUT I do pray that they'll clean their act up or if not, that might just prod me to share so EVERYONE will be more informed so they can make an more informed decision about spending big money to become a member of a showcase team.

Coach Milburn, your post is not making sense. What is your point? That a high school coach does not remember a good player on an opponent's team. So what? Is that player trying to be scouted by a high school coach or college coaches? Is some high profile organization supposed to remember every good opposing player? And if they don't, so what? And I don't understand the argument re cost of $150 versus thousands of dollars. If they play in the same tournaments, they might get matched up no matter how much one player spends versus the other. Did it cost $150 for the one game? One has to look at how many games the players get and where for the dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
BUT I do prey that they'll clean their act up

Was that an intentional spelling or did you mean "pray"?

Bottom line is that everyone has an agenda. Including many of the posters here in this forum.

There is no tried and true perfect answer to the showcase question. There are success stories and horror stories in every scenario.

I'd just advise to keep your eyes open - there are charlatans in showcase ball and there are high school coaches who overstate their influence and credibility or- more commonly - do little to promote their kids.

I think too many people just want a difinitive answer that just doesn't exist. It's a stressful situation because the window of opportunity is so small and you can't be everywhere at once. Mistakes will be made and much of it will come down to being a little lucky as well as good.

I will offer this - the little I do know about these teams is this - the Canes teams are stout and Jeff Petty is fair and reliable. The Braves are very competitive but only their "National" teams - and they have morphed into an organization that has a spot for any kid who can scratch a big check (which is good and bad i guess). The Cardinals are brand new so they haven't had enough time to disappoint anyone so the jury is still out. The mid-atlantic Mets/Red Sox get their kids exposure but are usually playing catchup to the Canes and Braves because the Canes and Braves seem to be able to poach their better players from year to year.

Coach Milburn,

I don't follow your story. Can you summarize?

Is showcase baseball for everyone? No...you have to have something to showcase. Either you get exposure or you are exposed.

[QUOTE] The Braves are very competitive but only their "National" teams - and they have morphed into an organization that has a spot for any kid who can scratch a big check (which is good and bad i guess).

Ya know, I think they cut kids from every level, even those with a big check. I know there are different levels and I'm certain the rosters are fluid. So if you are not performing, you move down or vise versa. I think you are misinformed. Some kids will get more playing time on the mid level team, versus the National team.
To suggest that if you pay, you'll play, is nonsense.

And as far as poaching kids, I run a business, and I've always said "you can't steal a client who doesn't want to be stolen". Offer a better product, customer service etc.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Coach Milburn,


Is showcase baseball for everyone? No...you have to have something to showcase. Either you get exposure or you are exposed.

Valid points Greenmonstah. I'll rephrase then - I can't imagine how bad some of the kids are that they cut because some who are rolling around town flying the colors and saying they are "on the Braves" are some of the least impressive travel ball players I've ever seen.

The Braves are selling out. Period. There has been a difinitive switch in philosophy in the organization and if you don't believe me you might want to ask the Roberts brother who left the organization because of it.

I personally know of a 16u kid that was a bench warmer on his JV team but was offered a spot on the 17U "scout" team for the summer or '10. No lie. No exaggeration.

As for the "poaching" - that might be strong on my part. It's unfair for me to suggest that they do anything that others don't. All those teams have fluid rosters and you're right about customers.

JMO -
Is that kid still with them? Is he on any of the summer teams?
Just curious. I don't want to know who it is, but I was told they trimmed the scout teams.

quote:

Originally posted by bbfan11:
Unless a player on the National team, being on the Braves is a waste of time and money.

Why would you say that? What is the basis? You know kids from their American team got D1 NLI's right? And they have a bunch of D3 commits. A waste of time and money would be to be on a team that offers no guarantee that scouts will see you. I'm certain these boys felt they did not waste their time or money.

I think there is an agenda here.

My son, who is now out of high school and does not play in college, played on about half of the teams mentioned. He played against the other half, plus many more. I think that what he would say, at this point, is that travel baseball was great, but probably should be reserved for those kids who are almost, if not totally, single-minded in the pursuit of a post-high school baseball career. I know that is how I view it. For those who want to play Div I or pro baseball, I would think it is nearly a must (in the Mid-Atlantic Region, anyway, though some Legion players make the cut). 99% of players below Div I are not going to be drafted in the end, so is travel ball the ideal? Only for those who want to keep trying to get to the Div I level. If the player has resigned himself to the fact that he is not going to play or coach baseball for a living, then perhaps it is best that be begin to balance his interests and his life? My son realized all of this at college. He was grateful that he had so much top-level baseball opportunity in high school, but he was a little disappointed that he had given up so much of himself and his time and his energy, only to have limited Div I opportunity (at schools he had no interest in attending). Travel baseball is such a tradeoff. I have seen more than one serious Div I/pro prospect walk away from the game in summer before his senior year.

Which leads me to this point. The first question has to be, "What does my son want from baseball?" Yes, if he wants to play or coach professionally some day, he HAS to compete at the highest levels, train at max levels, and be almost single-minded in his pursuit of his dream. But if he wants to play the game for enjoyment, camaraderie, and fun, then perhaps NVTBL, Legion, or some other forum will meet the need. This is not to say he may not want to test himself and try travel ball to see if he wants to compete at that level. But in all honesty, unless HE, repeat, HE, has made that commitment, then travel ball is probably too much in many ways.

I do not ascribe ill-intent to any of the coaches and organizations under discussion. I honestly think that these coaches and managers want to help kids achieve their dreams. Yes, some organizations have become for-profit, but that's okay, as it allows the leadership to dedicate themselves to helping their players full-time (or at least more seriously than if they were losing money along the way). My son never played for a travel team where we felt we were in any way cheated of our money. The games, coaches, fellow players, families, and fun all made up for any money we invested. I am sure that there are some organizations that are not of such good value, but we never dealt with them.

Travel baseball is great for many, many players. But be sure your player wants to be there and that what he wants from it justifies your doing it.

Hobbs: Fabulous post. The only thing that I would add is that sometimes the coaches of the travel teams do a disservice to the players who are not at the top notch level because in the end, the coaches need to fill a team, have a enough pitchers, allow for absences, the rare family commitment or illness that necessitates a kid missing a game.

In the end, if a team has 25 kids on the roster, how many of them are truly DI talent that the coach will invest in, and how many are there to support the team.

The crux is in the honesty of the parent and kid in assessing time out versus result.

rhobbs -- well said!

I might add, these situations are not unique to baseball. My daughter had to choose a few years ago between her two big activities, competitive swimming vs. performing arts, both of which were demanding her complete dedication to progress along.

In my day, you could dip a toe into a whole lot of different activities, and not one of them demanded all of your time. Today, it seems like everyone wants you to dedicate yourself 100% to one thing, to the exclusion of all else. I can see pluses and minuses to this. You might not be quite as "well rounded" as they say. But you might also achieve more in your primary interest due to the extra dedication and effort there.

I think you could debate which approach is better 'til the cows come home, but I also think most would agree with me that this sea change in how we approach teenagers' extra-curriculars has indeed occurred.

The only thing that it does do is, if you give one thing your all and you fall short, you're left with very little experience in other things. That may have been Hobbs Jr.'s experience. But again, I don't think this phenomenon is unique to baseball.

The worst aspect of all of it is the phenomenon of the kid who devotes himself so much to his chosen field that he doesn't even get a part-time job. In our day, we all had part-time jobs, even working weekends during season. (Not to mention, since we all played multiple sports, we were pretty much ALWAYS in some season or another.) I see a lot of kids reaching adulthood, heading off to college, with absolutely no clue about how to handle money. Baseball or no baseball, that's a recipe for disaster.

Maybe our ongoing recession will force us to have our kids relearn those lessons.

Hobbs - While I agree with most of your post, I think there are kids that are content playing D3 college ball and may not have got the opportunity to do so had it not been through a travel team. Most players in a D1 program do not go on to play professionally, did they waste their time? I don't know. The odds are very slim that they will be picked up at all. I get what you are saying, but I think there are some that realistic and just like playing at a higher level.

quote:

Originally posted by greenmonstah:
JMO -
Is that kid still with them? Is he on any of the summer teams?
Just curious. I don't want to know who it is, but I was told they trimmed the scout teams.

He is not - he couldn't afford it after one of his parents lost their job.

They told him he's welcome back though if their financial situation improves.

All heart those Braves.

justakid: I concur with your view that in some cases, organizations need to fill out rosters. In addition, tournament directors need to fill out tournaments. In both cases, some kids/teams become fodder for the top prospects. But again, I don't know that there is anyone will ill-intent. If a kid wants to be on a team, knowing his playing time will be limited, then that is fine. If a team wants to participate in a tournament, knowing that they have little chance of winning even a game, that is fine. The key is honesty all around.

Midlo: Agree and so glad you posted it. Wow. I had this conversation with my brother a week ago. His son just turned 15. He throws in the mid to upper 80s and knows how to pitch. He plays SS for all the teams he plays for, and consistently crushes the ball in the 360-400 range. However, he is not inclined to work at the game as hard as my brother knows he must if he wishes to succeed at higher levels. I told my brother that the biggest mistake I made with my own son was in not finding him a job in the summer or even on weekends during HS. I explained how he (my brother, that is) and I worked, THEN played, from 1st Grade onwards. I explained how THAT is what shaped us most for success in life, and THAT is what allowed us to have the work ethic in athletics that it took for us to achieve what we did. He countered that he believes that if his son does the work he should be doing to get better at baseball, then that is work enough. I disagreed, but he is the one raising his son.

Also, Midlo, just 40 years ago when we were in the midst of playing sports, we played the sport that was in season. No 100% commitment to one sport. I have to say, it was GREAT! I don't know if I would love baseball as I do, or played it with the fervor with which I played it, if I would have had to have played it year round. I think I would have resented that--would have resented baseball taking away my other sports. Which, of course, goes back to balance, getting enjoyment from the game, and preparing for life beyond baseball.

By the way, my daughter is in the same boat. She is very good in swimming, lacrosse, and field hockey. But she cannot keep up with the 100% dedicated swimmers because she devotes time to the other two (plus homework, plus community service, plus family commitments. . .). It is time to take a look at what SHE really wants to do, then promote that in a way that allows her some balance (so she has time to be with friends, for example).

greenmonstah: I think you are correct, and I did not mean to discount that opportunity for kids. I would just advocate that those kids, like all others, make the decision because that is what THEY want in their lives. Some of the best coaches in America never played any college ball, much less Div I. Some of the best coaches in America, corporate leaders, military leaders, government leaders, are Div III grads, and Div III sports helped shape them for the good. I am all for that. In some cases, it is possible that they would not have had that opportunity but for the 100% dedicated, travel team model.

JMO's post about the kid who no longer gets to play travel ball because his parents lost their job raises another difficult issue. Should the Braves have picked up the tab for this kid? Did the kid, or his money, come first? Can the Braves, and like organizations, survive if they cannot collect the fees from players? It would seem that team/organization sponsorship could solve some of these problems, but probably not all. This is a very sad situation for that player, and a tough call for the Braves to make.

I think it's important for me to clarify that I'm not bashing the Braves for doing anything that a hundred other organizations don't do - they aren't unique in this regard, nor are they the worst offenders. In re-reading this thread it appears as if I have it out for them and I don't.

I think my focus is more on the disappointment I have with their shift to a more "for-profit" philosophy. In years past they were the cream of the crop and were above reproach in my opinion. I'm just a little saddened to see the well spoiled.

Coach Mayers is a good man with good intentions. So was Mickey Roberts when he started the whole deal. It's others who have weaseled they're way in the mix that have taken the luster off with their opportunisim.

So, Venkman, did any of this help you in finding a good 17U travel team in NoVa for your son?

Actually, yes. We've made our decision and it clearly will be an adventure. I go into this with little expectations but I believe that it will afford my son an opportunity to play against some of the best high school players around and he'll be able to better gauge where he stands. Whether its worth the money, we'll see. The most important thing to me is that he fits in with his teammates and that they all get along and root for each other to succeed. I know that is a ****-shoot, but good teammates will go a long way in ensuring his enjoyment. Also, playing time will be important - I've been told that over a 4 game weekend, that he'll pitch one game; be a position player one game; sit one game and if he's hitting, play in game 4. We'll see.

quote:

Originally posted by venkman:
Actually, yes. We've made our decision and it clearly will be an adventure. I go into this with little expectations but I believe that it will afford my son an opportunity to play against some of the best high school players around and he'll be able to better gauge where he stands. Whether its worth the money, we'll see. The most important thing to me is that he fits in with his teammates and that they all get along and root for each other to succeed. I know that is a ****-shoot, but good teammates will go a long way in ensuring his enjoyment. Also, playing time will be important - I've been told that over a 4 game weekend, that he'll pitch one game; be a position player one game; sit one game and if he's hitting, play in game 4. We'll see.

Venkman,

Glad you've got things set. Let me know (via PM if you prefer) what team. Maybe we'll get a chance to meet up at a field this summer!

Since I am still trying to figure out how all this works, maybe someone can answer these questions for me.

Do top showcase programs with only one team per graduation year qualify as being "in it for the kids" and not "sellouts"?

What other top showcase programs with multiple teams per class year have "good" teams and "bad" teams? Do they charge kids less to play on their "bad" teams? Also, could anyone tell me what the "good" teams Vs "bad" teams are for those programs so everyone will know what they are dealing with if they happen to get involved with those programs or are thinking about getting involved?

quote:

Do top showcase programs with only one team per graduation year qualify as being "in it for the kids" and not "sellouts"?

I think it most of the programs out there are in it for the kids. It's done to help these kids succeed at the next level and grow as ball players. When you have multiple teams in an organization, you're going to have stronger and weaker teams. I don't necessarily believe that this means one is considered the "bad" team. It's just where the talent falls on any given year.

You will also find many programs that have teams with two or more year classes on the roster---these programs are fostering a follow thru for each year which is great for the kids---we only field one team but it may three classes on the roster

Yes, there are programs in it for the $$$$ but they are few in number and most of them come and go--the majority are in it for the kids