1st and 3rd

Runner at 3B should slowly extend his lead (walking lead) and leave AS the ball is being thrown (preferably as the 1B throws.)

Crudy is correct, timing is the key, helps to have a nimble runner on 1st as well. Question I ask, why don't more people want to bunt in this situation?? Here's my thought process, and while we do employ the early steal, even delayed, its not my favorite tactic because many times you will give an out! We get 21 of 'em, is this the most productive way to "make something happen??" I think not. I prefer to bunt 1st and 3rd, here's why...
Simple early steal is defended simply, with a good catch and throw. i think this puts more pressure on your runners, not on your opponent. How many times do you see the runner at third hung up? Our first look is to him with a "Hot" call, we get guys often if they get too much. Our third basemen makes the call. It takes some skill and some luck to pull off a successful 1st and 3rd. A close friend of mine often says "skill and knowledge always triumph over ingorance and superstition."

What about the bunt??? We call for one often 1st & 3rd, and do for several reasons, mainly to put pressure on the defense. Our runners have rules, R3 is on a safety squeeze, scoring if he thinks he can. R1 is on a run and bunt, looking to steal second and take third on the bunt (we try to make the 3rd basemen charge it. So we have employed the steal, which at worst gives us 2nd & 3rd, plus makes my opponent do two things, figure out his bunt coverage and how to successfully defend the 1st and 3rd early/delayed steal...thats high school kids thinking of what, 5 or 6 things they must do in this one situation! Try it quickly, think of a bunt coverage that goes with your 1st and 3rd defense and tell me its easy to , for lack of a better term, "Cover all the bases?? I doubt it is. At worst, we get a sac bunt, two in scoring position...often we score a run, third goes uncovered, we get it, and if we give up an out, oh well. There are 9 ways to score from third...I'll trade 1 out for 9 scoring opportunities. So now, instead of coach and his kids deciding what they need to do with two runners, they have to decide which of three runners to get out AND account for the bunted ball!

I've allways been taught what Crudy said.The runner on third takes a seconday lead when the pitcher throws to first and breaks for home right when the first baseman throws to the second/shortstop.If the first baseman is a lefty all the better, he will have to make a complete turn to throw to home.

why would he not run at him?? If the runner breaks early, the pitcher should step off and run at him. A well coached team will check the lead runner, not just throw.

I'm glad you mentioned the safety squeeze as it is the first thing that pops into my head in a first and third situation. We do not run and bunt as you suggest but a straight safety. With speed at the plate I will also put on a drag and play it as a safety squeeze.

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
why would he not run at him?? If the runner breaks early, the pitcher should step off and run at him. A well coached team will check the lead runner, not just throw.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but you are talking about pitcher stepping off, check runner at third and then turning / running at the runner at first. Is that what you are saying?

I don't like this because I don't want my pitcher to have his back to the runner at third. If you get one of those quick / good baserunners at third he can cause enough of a distraction to occupy the pitcher long enough for the runner at first to reach second. The pitcher gets really close to the runner at first (almost able to tag him) and then the runner on third has got a huge lead and then scores easily. I just feel the pitcher is put in a tough situation.

Here is what I teach

1B yells step off (rest of IF can too if they see it)

Pitcher steps off and checks the runner at third with ball out of glove and up. What we teach to look for is distance and shoulder position of the runner. If he is far enough off the base we run after him or if close we throw it right away (making the judgement that he is JUST far enough off to go after him - late in game gamble). If his shoulders are turned toward home (but he's close to third) we throw it right away. If the shoulders are turned back to third and / or he is close we leave him.

Once the runner on third has been checked we have the pitcher turn clockwise and get the ball to the shortstop (first person he sees during the turn) breaking over towards second. Most teams who do this have the 2B step into the line (and I have done that as well) but I like the idea of giving my SS (usually the better arm) this play.

Now the shortstop has the play in front of him. If the runner on third breaks the shortstop reads him. Run at him or throw at him - just make sure he can get him. If runner on third holds then he has the runner at first in a tag play at second if he kept coming or he is in a rundown going back to first.

If it's a rundown back to first we usually have our 1B trail the runner so once the runner starts to turn to head back to first the shortstop can make a quick toss to the firstbaseman who has him before he can get going towards first.

When you do this correctly it is so quick that the runner on third shouldn't have much of a chance to do anything. There also is the school of thought of too many throws on rundowns but really it should be at most two throws on any of the plays. Don't we all teach one throw but no more than two throws on rundowns? Plus we work on rundowns everyday as a conditioning exercise.

Now as for the original question the runner on third should be creeping down the line and break when they see motion to throw. There is no good time to make a break to where you will score 95% of the time. The offense has to take a chance and the defense has to make an almost perfect throw to nail the runner(s).

If you run this play you are taking a chance and you just have to teach them when to take the chance. Then hope for the best.

We generally try to get the left handed first baseman running away from first as far as pos., and then have R3 try to anticipate the throw from 1B to 2B to make a break for home.

[quote]Please correct me if I'm wrong but you are talking about pitcher stepping off, check runner at third and then turning / running at the runner at first. Is that what you are saying?



Yes that is what I'm talking about. First of all he's not in a dead sprint, but most importantly, he has several teammates watching that had better instruct him on what to do with the ball. All the while, the 1st basemen and second basemen are squeezing the runner to set up a short rundown. Early in the game, say innings 1-3, I'll give a run for an out. I can also say in 11 years of coaching high school baseball, I've practiced this enough that I have never had a team mess up a rundown and not get an out, and I'd dare to say very few runners have ever scored on my pitcher running at the runner on 2nd.

defensively i like to get the ball in the 2nd baseman's hands. usually a better athlete, and he doesn't have his back to the runner at third. the 2nd baseman will WALK the runner back to first. pitcher glances at 3rd, then gives the ball up to the 2nd baseman.

our pitcher is checking as he approaches. again it isn't a sprint at the guy, he works towards him. as far as the better athlete, or our 9 pitchers this year, they are 4 middle infielders, 2 outfielders, 3 utility types, all good athletes. all throw 82-87, i'll take that arm over my 2nd basemen!

Quote

"Now the shortstop has the play in front of him. If the runner on third breaks the shortstop reads him. Run at him or throw at him - just make sure he can get him. If runner on third holds then he has the runner at first in a tag play at second if he kept coming or he is in a rundown going back to first."


You don't like the pitcher going towards the runner at 2nd, but like the ball at 2nd reading the runner at 3rd. Maybe I'm not following you correctly, but I see this as a 75 ft throw from the pitcher home and a throw from possibly 120+ ft??? Coach I'm not being critical, I love discussing this stuff, but I think I'm not following the logic here? We're using the same guys to get R1 in a rundown, but you like the guy with the ball further from the other play?

i think the big thing is the pitcher has his back to the runner at third. hey not saying mine is the right way or the only way. we actually have the 2nd baseman come straight up and try to get it to him. but if the runner is too far along, we give it to the ss who is at 2nd. this is how we do it, and have been pretty successful. but what works for, works for you. have at it. it is like the argument of how to do rundowns. do you get the ball ahead and work the runner back to the bag he came from.....or go for just the 1 throw????

Turnin2 that is pretty much correct. It is a longer throw but I am talking high school kids and I expect and train my kids to do this. Really it depends on your personnel too. There is nothing wrong with how you do it (pitcher has ball all the way), catamount's way (2nd baseman has ball) or mine (shortstop has ball) because all of them work if you train your kids to do it. My teams have actually turned doubleplays on this. We get the guy at first and then snap a throw to nail the runner at third if he gets a little too far.

Like I said earlier, I have done all of these before and nothing wrong with them. I just like using the shortstop now.

A drill that helps us work on having several runners, rundowns and checking lead / trail runners is a drill I got off here a couple of years ago. Put a runner on each base, have a pitcher on the mound and he picks at first.

The runner at first takes off and you work your rundown. As soon as the tag is made the runner on 2B takes off. Now the 1B, 2B or P (if it gets that far) reacts to him. He is either going to throw in front of him to force him back or run at him to force him to pick a direction. Once that out is made the runner at 3B takes off. Pretty much the same scenario going on. The kids have to see a situation and react accordingly to get us in the best position to get an out without giving up a run.

But to make this work you got to build up to it with explaining forcing runners back to base left, ball out & up and not in glove / arm down / pump fakes and all that stuff. Teach them what to look for, work on it in regular rundown drills and then advance to the multiple runners.

Another step could be when the pitcher goes to first and the rundown is taking place have the runner on third take off or runner on second take off before the out is made. Now they have to communicate, make decisions, execute throws and tags. It's a whole lot tougher but it's pretty fun and somewhat realistic in the chaos that can erupt from multiple runners being off base. Just another way to help slow the game down.

I don't have a problem with my guys throwing the ball because that is a major part of the game. I want them confident enough if they see a play to be made to take it. I hear guys all the time "hold the ball" because they are afraid of throwing it away. Well they are right in that every throw could end up getting away but why teach them to play scared / tenative? Get in practice and put them in situations where they have to make decisions and throws and they will when the games happen. We make errors but we fix them and move on.

This is what I love about this game - various ways of doing the same thing and they are all correct. If we played each other and your team tried to 1st / 3rd leave early and we get you out our way and then in the next inning we try to 1st / 3rd leave early and you get us out your way. We look at each other and a nod of the head to show our respect in teaching and executing the game while people in the stands think two totally different plays just happened.

agree totally!

Runner at 1st and 3rd and you're running a situation for one run? We run 1st and 3rds with 2 outs and desperatly need a run. I do like the idea of a bunt and run and think that is a wise choice IF you don't have a lot of faith in your runner's speed at 1st or your hitter's abilities.

The question was asked who do you want to have the ball? I want my 2nd baseman to have the ball. If the runner at first leaves early, "step off" 2b breaks for an area approximately 15 ft in front of 2nd and so closer to runner and quick tag. My 1st baseman is following that up standing on the infield side of the baseline and approximately 15 feet in front of the bag so if the runner reverses direction a quick toss and tag happens. 1st base would read reversal of direction, note speed of runner and call "ball" as 1st baseman starts sprint to close the gap between runner and himself. Again, goal quick tag.

If your running this as an offense to get a run, the primary runner is the runner at 1st. He has to run hard in the direction he's going to make the reversal of the ball happen while not allowing the defense to close the gap. All JMHO!