What do you do defensively? Most of the time the runner at first takes second and we pump fake with the catcher or hold it then go after the batter. It seems like there is not much to do. We throw to SS on a short cut or pump fake with catcher but runner at 3rd just stays and they take 2nd base easily.
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Nathan,
what defense position? How many outs? How fast the runners? Is field AstroTurf. Wet or dry? How many outs, the score, the inning, left or RH hitters. The position of the 3b coach in the box? The accuracy and strength of your defense arms?
Bob
Consultant posted:Nathan,
what defense position? How many outs? How fast the runners? Is field AstroTurf. Wet or dry? How many outs, the score, the inning, left or RH hitters. The position of the 3b coach in the box? The accuracy and strength of your defense arms?
Bob
Now you're getting technical! 
What age group
Don't just let the kid take second. Throw over to 1B a few times. If they hold the runner on your SS play, then throw down and get the out. If you're not good enough to stop the running game, then practice it a lot.
High school level. No outs. When we throw to second though the runner at third will just take off. Not a fan of throwing to the bag.
We have 5 options: Hold it, hard throw back to pitcher, throw to 2b, throw to 3b, throw to 2b bag, throw to 2b bag but with 2ndbaseman coming across watching runner and ready for cut, and throw to SS who is coming in toward home.
If they are taking off AS SOON as the catcher throws it, then throwing to the P or to 3B should catch them off. If they are waiting until it clears the pitchers head, then you should have a shot at the 2b "cut" play or the SS play. If everyone's arms or gloves are so inaccurate that you can never get anyone out, then they need to practice it all a lot more, or they need to replaced.
We work on our 1st/3rd plays for a few minutes 3 to 4 times a week to get the throws and footwork down.
1st and 3rd defense
It starts with holding the runner at first properly.
1- Throw through to get the runner. Pitcher fakes a cut to attempt to hold runner at 3rd or make him hesitate.
2- Pitcher cut off. Catcher throws down and pitcher cut's it looking to nail runner at 3B.
3- Cut play in MIF. Catcher throws down pitcher does not fake cut. MIF cut's and looks to nail runner at HP.
4- Pitch out - MIF yells runner and breaks to bag. Catcher throws behind runner at 3B.
5- Pitch out - Catcher throws behind runner at 1st - Runner breaks from 3B - 1B closes the distance on the throw and nails runner at home. Runner does not break peak at runner going to second - if he has hesitated nail him if not sure hold the ball.
6- MIF break to bag yells runner. Catcher pump fakes to MIF and looks at 3B. If runner has daylight throw if not hold.
Depending on multiple factors the play will be dictated. How quick is your pitcher to home plate? How good is your catcher? How well do you hold runners? How good is the base runner? What is the score? Where in the game are we? Who is hitting and what has he done? How many outs, score, etc.
Just like Offensive Bunt game, Defensive Bunt game, Offensive 1st and 3rd game, cut game, base running, hold game, you must practice it and become confident in your ability to execute it in game situations. Never just give up a bag without planting a seed.
At the younger youth levels, we would sometimes have the catcher throw to 2B and sacrifice the run to throw the guy out at 2B with nobody out. The odds of a guy scoring from 3B with 0 outs in youth baseball is pretty high unless you have a dominant strikeout pitcher on the mound.
Around here we hardly ever see anyone do the pitcher-cut in HS first-and-thirds.
The reason I know is that I'm somewhat aggressive at taking advantage of that.
mburtner17 posted:At the younger youth levels, we would sometimes have the catcher throw to 2B and sacrifice the run to throw the guy out at 2B with nobody out. The odds of a guy scoring from 3B with 0 outs in youth baseball is pretty high unless you have a dominant strikeout pitcher on the mound.
Great point.
IMO, you can make a case for this tactic in HS baseball also, assuming that you believe you have a reasonable chance of throwing the runner out at second.
High school level IMO you should be able to run the 2nd baseman read play about 99% of time and defend all that is needed. it is about execution, if the catcher does his job properly, the 2nd baseman reads properly there is no risk. if you don't execute you lose...simple game.
Honestly I don't recall the last time I saw a quality team doing anything but the read play as a typical defense for 1st&3rd at the JV or higher level. If you can't execute that play with a high degree of success I would suggest you need to reevaluate the practice plans until you can.
old_school posted:High school level IMO you should be able to run the 2nd baseman read play about 99% of time and defend all that is needed. it is about execution, if the catcher does his job properly, the 2nd baseman reads properly there is no risk. if you don't execute you lose...simple game.
Honestly I don't recall the last time I saw a quality team doing anything but the read play as a typical defense for 1st&3rd at the JV or higher level. If you can't execute that play with a high degree of success I would suggest you need to reevaluate the practice plans until you can.
old school,
In my experience, on the 2nd baseman read play, most HS 2nd baseman are biased towards cutting.....with the result that this play is usually the "concede the steal of second base" play.
We run the 2nd baseman read play with our 13u team, but we will give 2nd/SS what we want on the play. This will help them as they get older and make the call themselves.
Agree that it starts with holding the runner at first and that doesn't mean always throwing over to first. Hold the pause until batter calls time, fake third to first, courtesy...courtesy....courtesy then best pick. Wear him out to where he will be slower reacting.
Here's what we do
1. Throw through like normal - situation dictates this a lot. If we have slower runner on 3B with above average speed at 1B, if we are up 3 or more especially late, if I feel we are going to hit their pitcher, etc....
2. MIF cut - 2B flashes in front of the bag about 20 - 30 feet with possibility of cutting catchers throw. I teach my 2B to read distance and body position. When they break on the pitch take a quick peek at runner at 3B - if they are off the base pretty far then cut and run at them ready to throw to 3B. If they have shoulders turned toward home then cut and attack them. If they are static and / or close to the bag then we let it go through.
3. Pump to 3B - pump fake to 2B and throw behind runner at 3B if we notice him being aggressive. Can do this on the pitch or pitch out.
I HATE giving up the bag at 2B with no play. What's the point in playing defense and working to get better if you're going to give up a bag uncontested? Now if we turn it into a circus and every player on defense ends up touching the ball to where both runners score then I know what to go over in practice the next day.
If you face a a team that defensively runs the MIF cut play all the time the best way to defeat it is to put hit and run on. You now have to big holes on each side to get a ball through. You're at least going to have first and second with a run scored.
freddy77 posted:old_school posted:High school level IMO you should be able to run the 2nd baseman read play about 99% of time and defend all that is needed. it is about execution, if the catcher does his job properly, the 2nd baseman reads properly there is no risk. if you don't execute you lose...simple game.
Honestly I don't recall the last time I saw a quality team doing anything but the read play as a typical defense for 1st&3rd at the JV or higher level. If you can't execute that play with a high degree of success I would suggest you need to reevaluate the practice plans until you can.
old school,
In my experience, on the 2nd baseman read play, most HS 2nd baseman are biased towards cutting.....with the result that this play is usually the "concede the steal of second base" play.
IMO that comes down to making it a priority in practice. I don't think it is to much to ask for at that level and in my experience if worked on it will be done effectively. I agree with you that I don't ever want to give away a free base...
Coach I agree. Many times we will fake steal in 1st and 3rd situations and watch movement. If we play a team that runs the MIF cut play exclusively or we feel that is what they are going to do we either hit and run or run and bunt the right side. Force the 1B to field the ball as the 2B is covering the middle on the steal.
I had the aforementioned defensive plays in the arsenal but ran the read play and pump fake plays the vast majority of the time. I was either going to throw out a runner or play it safe hoping the runner at 3b got caught going early. It's a decision that we all know is based on several things.
There are times you feel you can't give up the bag without taking a shot and times you feel it's not worth the risk. I also agree with oldschool that it really boils down to spend the time in practice. Also what type of arms and athletic ability do you have in the MIF? How good is the catcher? How quick is the runner at 3B? What's the situation in the game? There are times I don't want the ball thrown past the pitcher and take a chance on a poor read in the middle, etc.
The key is working on it, knowing what you can do and can't do and when to do it and when to not do it. HS varies greatly in ability and coaching. Some teams are well schooled in the finer points of the game and some are not.
old_school posted:IMO that comes down to making it a priority in practice. I
Not to be argumentative, but IMO, despite how heavily you practice the mechanics of the 2nd baseman read play, nevertheless in the fog of a close game (who cares what happens in a game that isn't close) even if the mechanics are top shelf, a HS 2nd baseman will usually be biased towards cutting the ball.
He's hustling into cut position, posting up, and reading/deciding: throw is off-line to left or right, cut it; throw is going to be late getting to the bag, cut it; runner at third is aggressive, cut it.; two outs? extra bias towards cutting it. Etc. It's not IMO a simple read, and it's further biased by the fact that a HS 2nd baseman doesn't want to lets his team down by allowing a run to score.
Trying to read the mind of HS second basemen...I am Carnac the Magnificent, lol
coach2709 posted:
2. MIF cut - 2B flashes in front of the bag about 20 - 30 feet with possibility of cutting catchers throw.
When we like the arm and IQ of our 2nd baseman, we have him come in front of the bag about 15 feet--the edge of the cutout--so that our catcher can make his normal throw.
Agree skill set is huge... we had a SS LY with a particularly strong arm and good head .. changed our strategy with the read play. Instead of other MIF coming across to cut, we let it through and he reads whether to stay and make the tag or take a few steps up and fire home. The other piece of that equation that really helps is that we incorporate the play where the P cuts the throw from C and backpicks R3... C has to sell it as a full throw down. Then, off of that, we train our P's to fake the cut-off/backpick to third, even when throw is going through. This usually keeps R3 honest and allows SS to keep the tagout of R1 in play. Sometimes we got both.
A question... I have had some assistants with college experience insist that C's should be able to glance to 3b and then make the throw down. I just don't see most HS catchers having the ability to glance, make a decision and still make an effective throw down. Again, of course, skill set and speed of R1 come into play but what are opinions on the quick glance?
cabbagedad posted:Agree skill set is huge... we had a SS LY with a particularly strong arm and good head .. changed our strategy with the read play. Instead of other MIF coming across to cut, we let it through and he reads whether to stay and make the tag or take a few steps up and fire home.
We did almost the same thing last season. Our 2B went to the bag, our SS was our MIF-cut, at the edge of the cutout, about 15 feet in front of the bag. Even though the angle is awkward for the SS, nevertheless the SS-cut was the better play for us. He was exceptional.
cabbagedad posted:Agree skill set is huge... we had a SS LY with a particularly strong arm and good head .. changed our strategy with the read play. Instead of other MIF coming across to cut, we let it through and he reads whether to stay and make the tag or take a few steps up and fire home. The other piece of that equation that really helps is that we incorporate the play where the P cuts the throw from C and backpicks R3... C has to sell it as a full throw down. Then, off of that, we train our P's to fake the cut-off/backpick to third, even when throw is going through. This usually keeps R3 honest and allows SS to keep the tagout of R1 in play. Sometimes we got both.
A question... I have had some assistants with college experience insist that C's should be able to glance to 3b and then make the throw down. I just don't see most HS catchers having the ability to glance, make a decision and still make an effective throw down. Again, of course, skill set and speed of R1 come into play but what are opinions on the quick glance?
My 2017 catcher has a pretty good arm and is pretty savvy. Sometimes the HC signals him to make a throw-down to 2B, especially with 2 outs and a perceived slower runner, to try and get out of the inning. Honestly, it works as much as it fails, so I have mixed feelings.
But this is the perfect segue for me to share a random related thought I recently had on this very topic.
Does anyone make a really hard fake ("sell") to back-pick the runner at 1B to try and get the runner at 3B to come home? The throw would be cut by the pitcher, 2B, or SS and ideally get the runner at home or in a run-down. Sure, the runner at 1B will advance to 2B but if you get the lead runner our and especially if that is the third out, it could be highly beneficial. Since this would be a semi-trick play, if it does not work the first time, it probably needs to go back in the bag...
I saw that play work once at u13. The coach was dumbfounded, the boys father refused to feed him between games and the mom made him wear a dirty uniform the next day...haven't seen it work since.
old_school posted:I saw that play work once at u13. The coach was dumbfounded, the boys father refused to feed him between games and the mom made him wear a dirty uniform the next day...haven't seen it work since.
Okay. I'm taking it that you are not a fan. Have you seen it attempted again? If the runners stay put then there is no damage done, and the runners (and base coaches) might get more conservative on the bases. Or are you trying to politely say it is a bad idea all-around?
Batty67 posted:old_school posted:I saw that play work once at u13. The coach was dumbfounded, the boys father refused to feed him between games and the mom made him wear a dirty uniform the next day...haven't seen it work since.
Okay. I'm taking it that you are not a fan. Have you seen it attempted again? If the runners stay put then there is no damage done, and the runners (and base coaches) might get more conservative on the bases. Or are you trying to politely say it is a bad idea all-around?
I thought it was a little funny, IMO it isn't a play. if the catcher thinks he can bluff and get an aggressive guy on 3rd fair enough.
I think plays are highly over rated, simple execution of routine defense takes away the need for "plays" - there can be a time and place but honestly they are like one step above the hidden ball trick.
old_school posted:Batty67 posted:old_school posted:I saw that play work once at u13. The coach was dumbfounded, the boys father refused to feed him between games and the mom made him wear a dirty uniform the next day...haven't seen it work since.
Okay. I'm taking it that you are not a fan. Have you seen it attempted again? If the runners stay put then there is no damage done, and the runners (and base coaches) might get more conservative on the bases. Or are you trying to politely say it is a bad idea all-around?
I thought it was a little funny, IMO it isn't a play. if the catcher thinks he can bluff and get an aggressive guy on 3rd fair enough.
I think plays are highly over rated, simple execution of routine defense takes away the need for "plays" - there can be a time and place but honestly they are like one step above the hidden ball trick.
Fair enough and of course solid defense should always be the baseline/goal.
I just wanted some friendly feedback on an idea I had because my son has successfully back-picked many lazy runners at 1b--especially early in the game when they might not expect it from the catcher. He's back-picked a few lazy and overly-aggressive runners at 2b, getting them out at 3b or 2b when they hesitate or are shocked and caught in a run-down. But those are pretty rare. Of course, back-picks to 3B are far too risky to chance. This led me to wonder about the viability of faking a hard sell to back-pick at 1b to induce an overly aggressive runner to come home. Thanks for your input.
Anyone else?
cabbagedad posted:Agree skill set is huge... we had a SS LY with a particularly strong arm and good head .. changed our strategy with the read play. Instead of other MIF coming across to cut, we let it through and he reads whether to stay and make the tag or take a few steps up and fire home. The other piece of that equation that really helps is that we incorporate the play where the P cuts the throw from C and backpicks R3... C has to sell it as a full throw down. Then, off of that, we train our P's to fake the cut-off/backpick to third, even when throw is going through. This usually keeps R3 honest and allows SS to keep the tagout of R1 in play. Sometimes we got both.
A question... I have had some assistants with college experience insist that C's should be able to glance to 3b and then make the throw down. I just don't see most HS catchers having the ability to glance, make a decision and still make an effective throw down. Again, of course, skill set and speed of R1 come into play but what are opinions on the quick glance?
Most of the time we throw through to second base. I may have to change that this year because MIF will not have the arms we have had in the past. HS kids should be able to throw to second base and back before r3 makes it home. (always exceptions I know). We have the other plays in the play book as well, but generally throw to 2B. We have the defensive philosophy of always get an out.
Our catchers always take a glance toward third and check the runner. No matter what I have called the catcher always has the right to throw at r3. If he sees it late, just give a good pump fake to second and then go to third. We also have the third baseman help with this read. If the third baseman thinks we can get r3, he has arms up to signal for the ball.
ETA: Just have to find what works best with the kids you have. You can not cookie cut teams or players from year to year.
Very good information here, just wanted to thank the posters.
We've left out a piece here... many offenses, ours included, will run the play with R1 pulling up short of the tag at second or R1 inducing a pick from P to 1b, where R1 then bolts toward second, inducing the throw from 1B to second, allowing R3 to stretch his lead and then take home. Others will run an early steal or a steal and stumble, trying to accomplish the same.
Defensively, with any of this, our key is to get the ball quickly in the MIF's hands that is covering the bag, whether that is a throwdown or a step off by P. That MIF has best view and can make the best decision from there. Again, make sure of an out but a few timely pumps can often result in a double play.
Batty67 posted:old_school posted:Batty67 posted:old_school posted:I saw that play work once at u13. The coach was dumbfounded, the boys father refused to feed him between games and the mom made him wear a dirty uniform the next day...haven't seen it work since.
Okay. I'm taking it that you are not a fan. Have you seen it attempted again? If the runners stay put then there is no damage done, and the runners (and base coaches) might get more conservative on the bases. Or are you trying to politely say it is a bad idea all-around?
I thought it was a little funny, IMO it isn't a play. if the catcher thinks he can bluff and get an aggressive guy on 3rd fair enough.
I think plays are highly over rated, simple execution of routine defense takes away the need for "plays" - there can be a time and place but honestly they are like one step above the hidden ball trick.
Fair enough and of course solid defense should always be the baseline/goal.
I just wanted some friendly feedback on an idea I had because my son has successfully back-picked many lazy runners at 1b--especially early in the game when they might not expect it from the catcher. He's back-picked a few lazy and overly-aggressive runners at 2b, getting them out at 3b or 2b when they hesitate or are shocked and caught in a run-down. But those are pretty rare. Of course, back-picks to 3B are far too risky to chance. This led me to wonder about the viability of faking a hard sell to back-pick at 1b to induce an overly aggressive runner to come home. Thanks for your input.
Anyone else?
when you get a kid flat footed at 2nd...LOL that has to be the best feeling for a catcher!!
Nathan posted:
What do you do defensively? Most of the time the runner at first takes second and we pump fake with the catcher or hold it then go after the batter. It seems like there is not much to do. We throw to SS on a short cut or pump fake with catcher but runner at 3rd just stays and they take 2nd base easily.
This past summer and fall our HC decided to work from a position of knowledge in order to try to make sure the guys slowest to the plate were identified. As it turned out, the eye test wasn’t very accurate. The thinking was, getting the ball to the plate quicker was the best defense, so I did what I could to get him that information. Please see attachment.
Everyone understands that no one is perfect using the stopwatch, and that can be easily seen by seeing some of the hi and lo times. But it doesn’t take very long to get a pretty good idea about a pitcher’s “normal” time.
What is the % that the pitcher will throw a fastball in this situation? With this in mind my offensive team
will be aggressive with a "run and hit" situation. Since the 3b is close to the bag, the SS and 2B in motion the result is a "big inning". Remember when I asked about the 3b coach. If he coaching in box looking at the runner, the batter is not swinging. He does not want to get hit by the ball, therefore he is telling you that the hitter will take.
Bob
freddy77 posted:coach2709 posted:
2. MIF cut - 2B flashes in front of the bag about 20 - 30 feet with possibility of cutting catchers throw.
When we like the arm and IQ of our 2nd baseman, we have him come in front of the bag about 15 feet--the edge of the cutout--so that our catcher can make his normal throw.
freddy77 there's two things you need to understand - 1) I don't do a very good job of going back and proofreading what I post. 2) I have fat fingers and that was supposed to say 10 - 20 hahaha. I'm completely with you on the catcher being able to make a normal throw. This is why I don't like the pitcher cut the throw concept because the catcher typically throws lower than normal.
Cabbagedad I've heard people talk about teaching the peek to third before throwing. In my opinion your catcher has to have a cannon to do that. I also don't feel like I've had a catcher who could do that so I'm not teaching it. If I come across that guy who I think I can then I will but I just believe an average HS catcher is out of his element in order to teach this.
As for your situation with a leave early, steal / stumble / stop or forced pick we basically do it the same. The only thing different, and it's really not that much different, is I want my 2B to get that ball from the pitcher on a step off mainly for the same reasons with the cut - the 2B has everything in their field of vision to make a decision on the runner at 3B. Plus, it cuts down on the space the runner at first has to work with. But the first thing we do is have the pitcher freeze the runner at 3B - distance, movement towards home - then he's going to 3B. If it's a pick we have our 1B try to close ground towards the pitcher to receive the throw. This cuts down distance for throw, allows him to see what runner at 3B is doing and get angle to throw to MIF - in this case it will be SS getting this throw due to all the angles going on.
Being very good at defense tends to lead to these plays not being used. You control situations better and the other teams get more passive if they know you're going to probably get outs. In my opinion the best drill you can run to help teach guys to make plays on chaos is rundowns and a chaos drill.
We use rundowns as a warm up drill at the start of practice. I split my OF in half at first and third. I get my IF where they are supposed to be but I'll rotate my SS between 2B and 3B. Get two pitchers or two coaches and have them do pickoffs to first and third to start the rundown. Work all the fundamentals of keep the runner on throwing arm side, close the distance, call ball and all that. Great way to get loose and reinforce good defense.
Chaos drill is one pitcher but runner at each base. We predetermine which base we are picking to and run our picks. If you read another post I've said I could care less if we ever pick someone at second so this philosophy still works but the runner at second is getting nailed so we can still work on it through a rundown. Anyway, we also let the runners know the order they become live. Once an out is made then the next runner becomes live and the defense has to react to get that guy. Our runners aren't worried about getting to the next base but creating rundown situations. So for example if we pick at second he's heading towards third and once he's out let's say the runner at first becomes live going to second. We get him and then runner at third becomes live going home. It really forces you to minimize throws and gets guys thinking / reacting to situations outside the box. I hope this makes sense and you guys can use it. I love the drill
